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Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:31 am
by cbertbone
Looking for recommendations for a mouthpiece for a new .508 bore XO 1634 that I bought recently for jazz/big band stuff. For background I am returning after a long layoff and my primary horn is a Benge 190f that I play with a Benge Marcellus (which I love). I have been playing the .508 with a Bach Corp 6 1/2 AL but not too fond of it - with endurance and high range issues. I have a Benge 6 1/2 AL that I do like in the XO, but the plating is gone and I don't want to use it as is (and replating is probably too expensive and I haven't found a good used one anywhere). In reading several threads on here it seems the Bachs are fairly inconsistent so I am not sure if I should try a new Bach 6 1/2AL (or a clone). Ideally I would like to find something like the Benge 6 1/2 AL which I think is a bit larger and seems to fit me better.
In a non-Covid world I would just go to a good store and try a bunch, but that is not really an option today at my local store. And buying lots of new ones just to try is cost prohibitive. Hoping folks here can help narrow my list at least.
Oh, and BTW I did buy a couple of Kelly plastic ones (they were on sale and extremely cheap) but I did not care for the timbre produced. Too dark and/or 'woofy' (tried the 5G and 51D).
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:17 am
by BGuttman
Cheap and dirty: Try a Kelly 7C. It's a touch smaller than the 6.5 AL and shallower.
You could try putting a layer of nail polish on the rim of the Benge and see if it really works that well for you. If you really like it you can look for one on Ebay pretty cheap.
Look for a Yamaha 48 or Schilke 50.
Not as easy to find, but I like the Conn Remington in small shank. Especially if you like the Marcellus.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:29 am
by Posaunus
You may have just opened Pandora's box – just about every TromboneChat member will have their own favorite (or two or three) and will be happy to inundate you with suggestions. Stand back!
My own opinion – the 6½AL is a bit too big for your 0.508" XO (both cup I.D. and throat diameter). LOTS of other great choices with slightly smaller cups and throats. And many available "pre-played" from TC members!
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:57 am
by ngrinder
The 7C is an entirely different animal than a 6.5AL - you may love it, but you also might find it too restricting. Maybe look for a 6-1/2A, a 6-3/4C, or check out many different older 6.5ALs. The nice (or annoying) thing about older Bach mouthpieces is that they are all different - some of them are tighter, some of them have rims that measure closer to a 5, some of the throats are the size of your pinky. You can pick up them up on eBay for $20-$60, and sometimes you'll find a real winner (and probably spend less than if you bought something brand new.)
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:33 am
by bassboy
cbert, might take a dip into this thread, here are some options that won't break the bank:
http://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 28#p121728
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:04 pm
by Doug Elliott
If you want something will work well on the first try, my LT 102 rim is very similar to the Benge Marcellus, and a C+ cup with D3 shank would be a perfect match for a .508 bore horn .
Or you can go on an endless search through dozens of random mouthpieces that you won't like.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:18 pm
by Kevbach33
Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:29 am
My own opinion – the 6½AL is a bit too big for your 0.508" XO (both cup I.D. and throat diameter). LOTS of other great choices with slightly smaller cups and throats.
I wouldn't necessarily call the 6 ½AL (and the 6 ½A) too wide in diameter as much as it is too deep (says the one who plays a Bach 5 on his .500" 6H). Agreed about the big throat though.
@cbertbone, what part do you play, or plan to play on, in big band? That could influence your choice somewhat.
And take heed of Doug's advice. That's the ballpark you want to be in.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:49 pm
by cbertbone
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Gives me some food for thought.
@Kevbach33 - Back in the day I played lead in HS jazz band and also played 3rd/4th in a semi pro/community big band and I was doing it on my Benge 190f. But I am actually more of an orchestral player and unfortunately I haven't played in any band in many years while I have been doing the engineer thing. (BTW, I was always principal in orchestra/concert band, so I guess I have more experience in a higher range).
I really don't have a preference on what parts I play although 4th is really not in my wheelhouse, so I guess I am looking for a mpc with versatility.
I would note that I have strangely found that the smaller the rim of mpc I use the lower my range. On my Benge with the Marcellus I can consistently get up to D. With the current Bach 6 1/2AL on my XO I struggle up there and tire more easily and split more notes on the high side.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:26 pm
by Vegasbound
I would suggest a Skype lesson with Doug to make sure your chops are working correctly
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:39 pm
by Doug Elliott
cbertbone wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:49 pm
...
I would note that I have strangely found that the smaller the rim of mpc I use the lower my range. On my Benge with the Marcellus I can consistently get up to D. With the current Bach 6 1/2AL on my XO I struggle up there and tire more easily and split more notes on the high side.
That is not unusual at all.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:03 pm
by Conn100HGuy
Talk with Dave Harrison and Wedge Mouthpieces about range and endurance improvements with a Wedge.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:01 am
by harrisonreed
DE XT105 C+ D3
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:13 am
by MagnumH
You'll get a lot of different recommendations here, but the mouthpiece that works best for you will be different. As always, best advice is to talk to Doug Elliott directly. And either pick up one of his pieces or at least get his advice on best sizes. Find your rim size, then work from there on cup size, shank, etc.
If you want to buy stock for lower budgets, probably start with the Bach 7C or Bach 6¾C.
For the record, on my .500/.508 dual bore I use a DE MT102 with a B+ cup and C3 shank. It's a shallower cup than most, but I love a bright, edgy sound. This still lets me get down in the staff with ease and a solid, secure sound, and the horn sings up high.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:42 pm
by bimmerman
I also play on one of Doug's setups-- XT102 / C+ cup / D3 shank. My usable high range opened up dramatically going from a 7C to this "4C" esque setup, and I haven't felt a need to mess with mouthpieces since (other than swapping for F+/G cup and shanks for the big bore horn)
I highly recommend reaching out to Doug.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:43 am
by ssking2b
Try a Bach 6 3/4C, or a 7C, or an 11C. Any of them can have the throat opened. Many times the endurance issues and range can be cured (if the piece is comfortable on your lips) by opening the throat.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:03 am
by cbertbone
Quick update on my journey thus far.
I first tried a Yamaha 48. I wasn't really expecting this to be a silver bullet, but I found an inexpensive used one and thought it was worth a shot. Results were meh: Seemed to brighten the timbre and I liked that. But it also made my lower range more difficult and it really didn't help with any endurance issues I was having on the Bach 6 1/2 AL. But again, it was cheap so worth a try.
My second try I am actually pretty happy with: Bach 4C. I found a brand new one on Amazon for less than half price(I think I got the last one). I have had it for a few days now and I am going to stick with it for a while. Very nice bright timbre and I like the feel of it so far. The shallower cup is a bit different than I am used to, but not in a bad way. I would say my range and endurance are on par with the Benge Marcellus I play on with my 190F. The only minor limitation I have noticed at all are my pedal notes are a bit tougher on the 4C. But that is not my strength anyway and I am guessing with a little more practice they will get easier.
One thing I would comment on is the description for the Bach 4C is off-putting/intimidating:
"4C / Medium shallow / 25.75 mm / Medium wide, well rounded. / Large cup with a brilliant tone. Requires a powerful, natural embouchure"
As a returning amateur I read that to mean you better be a pro to use this mpc. But based on a lot of the excellent comments on this and other threads, I guess it really just comes down to individual style/approach/physiology. For me it seems like a good fit and the comments provided here gave me the confidence to try it. So thanks to all of you.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:39 am
by Basbasun
Take Dougs advice. Thats is a good advice.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:56 am
by ArbanRubank
cbertbone wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:03 am
Quick update on my journey thus far.
I first tried a Yamaha 48. I wasn't really expecting this to be a silver bullet, but I found an inexpensive used one and thought it was worth a shot. Results were meh: Seemed to brighten the timbre and I liked that. But it also made my lower range more difficult and it really didn't help with any endurance issues I was having on the Bach 6 1/2 AL. But again, it was cheap so worth a try.
My second try I am actually pretty happy with: Bach 4C. I found a brand new one on Amazon for less than half price(I think I got the last one). I have had it for a few days now and I am going to stick with it for a while. Very nice bright timbre and I like the feel of it so far. The shallower cup is a bit different than I am used to, but not in a bad way. I would say my range and endurance are on par with the Benge Marcellus I play on with my 190F. The only minor limitation I have noticed at all are my pedal notes are a bit tougher on the 4C. But that is not my strength anyway and I am guessing with a little more practice they will get easier.
One thing I would comment on is the description for the Bach 4C is off-putting/intimidating:
"4C / Medium shallow / 25.75 mm / Medium wide, well rounded. / Large cup with a brilliant tone. Requires a powerful, natural embouchure"
As a returning amateur I read that to mean you better be a pro to use this mpc. But based on a lot of the excellent comments on this and other threads, I guess it really just comes down to individual style/approach/physiology. For me it seems like a good fit and the comments provided here gave me the confidence to try it. So thanks to all of you.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:03 am
by Doug Elliott
The 4C is pretty much the specs I would have recommended, but it has some quirks. I think you'll do fine on it.
Re: Small bore mouthpiece options
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:21 am
by Russjones92
6.5A fan here just sings in the high range and can play in the stratosphere all day