LEAD TROMBONE //SPECS//NEEDS /DESIRES/ATTEMPTS

[ttf_dj kennedy]

well   --i am starting  this thread  to discuss the very specific [and personal needs  of lead trombone
  character-projection-cut-  while  with  many  players  this is primarily  from behind the   bell
    in reality  --in front  is important  also
----scott bentall//nick grinder//mike egan //tom rastofer//
----------
while my top recommend  is 2b  some players  cant  deal with or find  one  they like
 ///dave  ashley //john siddle // rodney//isrea//

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

Only one good answer to this one, dj.

The defunct Olds P-16. Engineered to play lead for Frank Sinatra, with the accompanying Olds 12C done by Art Sayre.
The only way to describe it is that is the world's greatest alto trombone, but pitched in Bb, with a bore of .500.

[ttf_Exzaclee]

My faves thusfar:

King 2B - so far my favorite flavor is the early 50's two-tone 2B. I've yet to find any horn anywhere by any maker that compares to the one I have. It's old, beat to hell with a bunch of hard miles on it, and it is pretty amazing as old beat to hell horns go. She's been replaced by the Williams, but she's still my favorite gal.

Williams (Bob) 3XXX - with a round crook, brass tubes (no sleeves) and an 8" bell this has become my go-to horn for everything. I played lead on it last night. Bell is closer to my head (3rd is just past the bell) which I think may add to the great feedback on this horn. Friends tell me it projects well, everyone seems to like the horn as much as I do out front. I think I sound a bit more refined with this horn versus the 2B. It's not as easy to play as the 2B (what is?) but that tiny little of extra effort on the technical side is rewarded with a full round sound and an easy upper ranger that slots so much better.

Shires .508 with LW nickel slide and Yellow bell: this was a better lead horn than a 2nd horn the way I was playing it at the time. It just murders everything sound-wise. Easy all over the horn top to bottom. I wish I hadn't gotten rid of it. I want it back. Great for salsa, this is the horn I would use on Kenton/Buddy type stuff.

Truitt/Kennedy 2B+ - this horn is the horn I use when I need to reign my ADHD in. It slots like it's on rails - tells you exactly where the note goes. It's really dark so it works well in a wide variety of situations. It creates focus - I don't know how else to describe it.

[ttf_Torobone]

The top lead player in Canada is Al Kay. He helped Yamaha design the 697Z & 897Z. I would guess that the 697Z is used about 2 to 1 to all other makes in Toronto.

[ttf_Don Draper]

Quote from: Exzaclee on Yesterday at 07:45 AM
Williams (Bob) 3XXX - with a round crook, brass tubes (no sleeves) and an 8" bell this has become my go-to horn for everything. I played lead on it last night. Bell is closer to my head (3rd is just past the bell) which I think may add to the great feedback on this horn. Friends tell me it projects well, everyone seems to like the horn as much as I do out front. I think I sound a bit more refined with this horn versus the 2B. It's not as easy to play as the 2B (what is?) but that tiny little of extra effort on the technical side is rewarded with a full round sound and an easy upper ranger that slots so much better.



This is a good horn, but.....

I have a Earl Williams 6 from 1950, Los Angeles.  7.5 inch bell, .500 bore, squared bottom bow like a Bach.   HUGE sound, bright, clear, resonant, much better than my Bob Williams which is the same as what Ex describes above. 

Also, the New York/Mt. Vernon/early Corporation Bach 12's were special (hello Lloyd Ulyate and Dick Shearer!!!! Talk about lead players!!!).

How about a good Conn 6H, Bob Fitzpatrick sounded amazing on them.

2B is the standard out west, but IMHO are a lot more work to play, especially in loud/modern big bands.  FOR ME, they feel tight and unresponsive.   They are GREAT horns, just not for me.  I like the Yamaha 697Z a lot better, feels like the .500 bore horns i mentioned above....

Just my 2 cents worth....

DD

[ttf_Don Draper]

More thoughts:

A great lead horn is not just small bore.  It is not as simple as Conn 6H, King 2B, Williams 6, etc.  It is SO much more than that. 

A great lead horn has to sing!  It has to be powerful, yet delicate.  Bright, but rich, never thin...but then, so does the person playing it.  The sound has to be big AND malleable.  Lots of overtones.

The mouthpiece has a LOT to do with it as well, it must be a good match for the specific horn....

The same can be said about a great horn for principal playing in an orchestra (about horn AND player). 

The horn has to be easy to play, slot well, play in tune.  Efficient!!!!  You should not have to fight it....

SPECIAL!!!!  I have one that I will take to my grave....

Not everyone will agree, Scott Bentall is different from Dick Shearer is different from Steve Wiest is different from Urbie is different from Watrous is different from Charlie Loper is different from John Mosca is different from?????

I do think there are a lot of common elements but it is more about a great playing horn than anything else...Some guys sound great on 3B's, I have a great Bach 8 that is better than most 12's, but not as good as my Williams 6...

DD

[ttf_Exzaclee]

Quote from: Don Draper on Yesterday at 01:38 PMI have a Earl Williams 6 from 1950, Los Angeles.  7.5 inch bell, .500 bore, squared bottom bow like a Bach.   HUGE sound, bright, clear, resonant, much better than my Bob Williams which is the same as what Ex describes above. 

I love the Earls, but they always felt more "block-sh" to me. The Bob was the first one I fell in love with. But I never really got that into Bachs to that's probably why I like the Bob more. I'm a king guy through and through and this one feels like a big King with all the intonation issues fixed. Guess I got a good one.

I always found the Bachs more work than the Kings... I'm sure there's a reason for why certain players flip flop on this issue, but darned if I know what it is.

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

I'm still not sure what I like. I had been having great luck with my modded Super. After this many years with it playing traditional and modern jazz, Latin, dance bands, funk, pop, R&B... I haven't really had a desire to change anything. There are still horns I'm curious about that I want to try and if I like one of those better of course it would replace my Super. But I can't see myself getting rid of it.

It plays loud really well and easily. I can brighten up and really get into the trumpets. I like it best from mp-f. Nice and colorful, responsive, and well in tune. Any softer it's harder to color, but just as easy still very nice.

I had a 2BSS with a .491 single bore slide. I've played several other Supers. I've flirted with some Conns and various other horns all near the same size. I didn't quite dig playing a large bore as a lead horn, but I want to try again sometime.  

[ttf_Dukesboneman]

I`ve played lead on a number of set-ups over the years.
Big Side - Conn 78H & Bach 36. For this size I always liked the horns to be on the Lighter side for quicker response Plus it was easier to get that "sizzle" with the lighter horn.

Now - I use a couple of different horns Bach 12, 12G & 16MG - Very flexible and nimble. Screaming good upper range, nice round full sound. I`m finding I like the 12`s better for
      lead work right now, but that could change. These will take any amount of air I give them and not get crass.

      King 2B+ SS - Good solid sound. Brighter than the Bachs and doesn`t like to be pushed as hard as the Bachs. Again good solid upper range. Very nimble and very light
      I had a 2B, got rid of it. I could never get this to work for me in a Big band setting. Wouldn`t take the air and always backed-up on me leaving me with 20 minute chops

      For a number of years I played lead on an extremely light weight 32H. This horn had power, big sound because of the dual bore and great upper range. Loved it but then one night I
      bumped a music stand and ALL the solder joints came loose and It just fell apart. It had been over hauled 3 X`s

[ttf_FlamingRain]

I just got done playing a couple of big band gigs playing some lead so I guess I've been thinking about this:

Im in the market for clarity when playing lead. I want cut and power, obviously, but I more often want to be able to sit on top easily, and for it to sound easy. Life is easy when it's clear; and I've heard a lot of lead players go way overboard with the style inflections (slide/tail vibrato, scoops, playing too loud, too spread or too airy/wooly of a sound) because they think that's "jazz" and it's how you should play a big band lead part. This can be especially frustrating if they  have good section mates because they will have to work triple to match.

Maybe I'm in the wrong mindset because I come from mostly schooling in a classical sense, and jazz is something I've barely started to feel comfortable with, but there isn't a whole lot different from classical section playing structure and function to jazz (theoretically) iif you're paying as much attention to detail as you should (which many sections don't).

Lead playing should be clear, consistent, style inflections with purpose, and sound effortless and powerful. There is an art to section playing that is very hard to teach but is one of my favorite things to do, especially when the cards are right and it's done well.

How it affects equipment choice for me: is

I played on a borrowed Conn 6H for a while, which was a good choice, and when I would play lead but I had to give it back at some point.

I played a Yamaha 352s and so far my experiences with silver trombones is that they don't handle extreme dynamics well, it has not a lot of resonance when playing moderately loud, and breaks up if you try to push it too hard.

I played a 3B Silversonix that my buddy let me borrow for a rehearsal when he bought it, and while it was better than the 352s it was still hard to contain the sound at loud dynamics.

I played a King 2b for one concert cycle and while I liked it, it was too small for me. The bore size felt stuffy and was hard to control at loud volumes, it just felt unpredictable. When things worked though, it was magical. Most 2bs I have tried feel this ways. The 3bs that I have tried do not.

I now play a regular Yamaha 354. I love it, it was dirt cheap, it responds very evenly in all registers and dynamics. It is versatile too and I feel comfortable playing 2nd or 3rd as well with it and being able to adjust my sound.

Various mouthpieces, but for the most part, recently, Elliott XTN106C+D3

My 2c, hope this helps in your endeavor!

[ttf_Burgerbob]

I've had two 6Hs. I feel like my first one, a '65, was a little better, but it was years ago. My current '67 feels pretty great, and with a mouthpiece switch to a Yamaha 48 I can play 2nd or 3rd just as well.

I think any issues I have with the horn are all me acclimating to a little instrument and closer partials. I've gotten compliments on my "lead sound" on the last couple reading band sessions here, when I felt mediocre at best. That's the sign of a good horn!

[ttf_sabutin]

Suggested by dj:

"...discuss the very specific and personal needs of lead trombone..."

OK.

For me...a NYC-centric lead player who covers a lot of idioms...the very first thing that I need is a horn that "colors" easily and very broadly and also projects out into the audience.

What do I mean by that?

I mean:

1-At fairly high volumes it sounds like a big trumpet in the upper middle/high registers. And I mean a good big trumpet. I would say more than 70% of a lead player's job in most big bands is to be part of brass tuttis, to bridge the gap between the trumpets and the trombones. The other 30% is to play lead in trombone solis...not just melodic stuff, but attacked hits as well. Jazz soloing is extra as far as I am concerned as a lead player...different blow, different approach, different mind, different chop. I can do it, but most of the time as a lead player I'd rather not.

The three failings that I most often hear from lead players are:

   A-Not enough projection, so that the trombones are completely overshadowed by the trumpets

   and

   B-Not enough brilliance, not enough bite to the attacks. Trumpets snap the whip on attacks and too often trombones do not/cannot match them. This goes for soli work, too.

   C-Plenty of strength, but too forceful a trombone sound. This usually goes along with larger equipment, but not always. For example, John Mosca plays a Mt. Vernon 36B w/a 6.5AL in the Vanguard band, and he never sounds forced.

2-At lesser volumes...again in the upper middle and higher registers...it sings like Dorsey and Urbie but still projects. Less attack-prone, a broader, mellower sound...headed towards the french horn rather than the trumpet. This works for melodic solos as well.

Some of this is hard-wired into a player's physicality and personal character, of course, but equipment can sometimes act like make-up for a character actor.

My own personal favorite as a lead horn is a gold plated Shires .500 bore from before they changed the proportions of slide to bell. (I am not sure when they did this...Ben or Gabe would know. The older ones seem to me to be a little less...civilized. Me too. ) Yellow brass, med. weight slide + bell, 7.75" bell, wide open leadpipe. I think bell size is very important in a lead horn. 7.75" is my own personal Goldilocks mean. 8" disperses a little too much (Except for good King 3Bs), and 7.5" focuses a little too much. 7.75"? Juuussst right. I play it on an 11-ish/7-ish, unmarked Minick that I like to call an 11C on steroids. It plays and sounds like a good 11C at moderate volumes, but it has an overdrive effect when you hit the throttle.

There it is as far as I am concerned. Up close and...as dj suggested...personal. The only other horns that I have played that seem to potentially come up to this one as a lead horn are a couple of Minick .500s. I've owned and played lead on any number of horns for several decades. I liked them all, but this one is me as a lead player. It's a good solo horn, too, as long as I remember that it's a fairly small set of equipment overall. I personally can't access much in the way of Jimmy Knepper, Curtis Fuller and/or J. J. Johnson on it.

So it goes.

You can't have it all, although I do keep trying.

Later...

S.

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

Sam,

A likely not so simple question for you to answer from your decades of thought and experience-

For a lot of us there is no real live example of proper lead playing to emulate any more. However, there is plenty of youtube video of the greats in action from the Golden Years-- lots of youtube Ellington and Basie. ( Kenton, Herman, and all the rest...)

How did the greats do it?
Or did they just begin in their childhoods in the 1920s and 1930s,and never look back?-- just keeping the vintage gear going from pre-WWII?
Lost gear and 25 years of experience on the road making it happen?

The big question, Sam-- is the answer a trip back in time to replicate the vintage gear and learning, or is there something modern
 to be learned from?
Thanks.

[ttf_ssking2b]

 I am currently endorsing the XO brass 1632R - a design by John Fedchock. It is a .500 bore horn with 7.5" bell and lightweight slide.   It works on lead like nobody's business!  I also own a fantastic 1952 2B, and a SS 2B from 1967 custom made for Kai Windig. Lightweight .491 slide and a bell throats the size of a 3b. Killer good horn.

I played for the last 24 years in and around NYC and NJ on the Kai Windig horn, and changed to the XO after playing it at the 2016 ITF.  IIt is the
Only horn I have ever played that plays like the Kai Windig horn, and yet it weighs only slightly more than a trumpet. Lightest horn on the market with NO compromise in
Sound at any volume. I play on a customized 11C.

With regard to the lead players of yesterday...you need to listen to them a lot. It also helps to learn to be a great section player. That way
You are aware of what the section player needs, and what the lead player had to produce. The you strive for consistency, and correctness
of style.  Remember too, the  lead player is only as good as the people in his section. If they don't know how to follow and play in ensemble the lead player might as well not bother because it's not going to happen.  Sure you keep striving to do it right but it's like working with a soundman… No matter how well you play the soundman can kill everything you're doing if he's not paying attention.

[ttf_The Sheriff]

=====

I've always been a lead player; dedicated my life to it. As such, it's in my head. All of it. So I have always gravitated to a horn or horns that help me get out of my head, ya dig? Or at the very least, help me get out what is in my head, out there, to the listener. I've been told by many that I have magic in my playing. Ok, whatever. But I suspect that magic is nothing more than years of dedication to the art.

For 13 years I played a Martin Committee, .484 bore with a Wick 10CS. I was young and strong like a bull during those years and was constantly playing a wide variety of gigs. Suddenly it didn't work any more. My gig scene changed, I changed. The search was on, and it was a long and difficult search. I eventually settled on a Lawler (Herb Bruce design) .490 bore with a Stork T2. Loved it, for a while.

Now, many years later I am still using the Stork T2 or various Hammond copies of one and....Kanstul 1606, .500 bore, new Lawler design .500 bore, Bob Williams model 6, with a custom .500 bore Lawler slide, and an early Earl Williams "L" model with a custom .525 bore slide.

Which horn I choose depends primarily on my mood and my chops. I can make them all work to my satisfaction. It is indeed very personal.

------

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Today at 04:32 AMSam,

A likely not so simple question for you to answer from your decades of thought and experience-

For a lot of us there is no real live example of proper lead playing to emulate any more. However, there is plenty of youtube video of the greats in action from the Golden Years-- lots of youtube Ellington and Basie. ( Kenton, Herman, and all the rest...)

How did the greats do it?
Or did they just begin in their childhoods in the 1920s and 1930s,and never look back?-- just keeping the vintage gear going from pre-WWII?
Lost gear and 25 years of experience on the road making it happen?

The big question, Sam-- is the answer a trip back in time to replicate the vintage gear and learning, or is there something modern
 to be learned from?
Thanks.

The "answer"...for me...is to try to understand the conditions under which past masters worked, understand the conditions under which we must work, then understand what those past masters did to meet the challenges that they faced and finally take what they did and apply it to the present.

The biggest changes in conditions have been amplification on live gigs and the whole digital recording/"sound reinforcement" movement that has pretty much totally taken control of the finished product out of the hands of the musicians and put it instead in the hands of recording engineers and sound people.

Originally...in say the Swing Era right through the mid-'60s...playing in a big band meant playing in acoustic situations that required a fair amount of strength and power to project through the sound of the band and into the audience in lage dance venues. Plus...since most of the people that founded this style were traveling musicians who worked almost every night and spent a lot of time traveling, an easier-to-push-around equipment package...one that had quite a bright, powerful sound with the least amount of physical effort...was the norm. Sub-.500 bore instruments were quite common (witness the deserved popularity of the ing 2B and 12C-ish m'pces, for example), and .485 bores like the Conn 4H and 24H were the section norm. They have a great deal of "core," those instruments, even at below mf volumes, and when pushed they will peel paint. They are not necessarily "pretty" horns, but compact and strong, like a middleweight/welterweight wrestler. Recording techniques were based around capturing the way those people played on the gig...no close miking, no remixing. You got pretty much what you played.

And then...quite suddenly, in the mid-50s..."hi-fi" came into existence. Recording got much more dominant as the way people made money and careers, and the way many people played changed to take advantage of that fact. Also, the touring bands decreased in popularity immediately after WWII and pit work got more and more dominant. The 2B remained, but bruisers like the Conn horns were replaced with more subtle-sounding Bach horns or .500 bores like the Conn 6H and .508 bores like the King 3B...much more mellow-sounding instruments. Also, more and more trombonists were showing up with influences beyond that of the "jazz" players, people who had played orchestral idioms to some degree in school. Long story short, volumes generally decreased across the board and tones got somewhat darker.

And then, in the late '60s, the amplification deluge started. Within a few years, what I call "The John Henry Syndrome" kicked trombone players's asses left and right. (It kicked mine to the point that I had to start all over again with Carmine Caruso after a total chop breakdown.) First the bass got louder, then the drums to match the bass, then the keyboards in an almost feedback-like fashion. Brass players could keep up at first, but pretty soon only a mic would allow us to be heard.

Enter the mic "specialists" like Bill Watrous. People who played very softly and exceedingly well. Many people...Urbie Green among them, in my opinion...eventually had to either change equipment to meet the new era or simply refuse to change and get left behind. Urbie changed, thus the Martin Urbie model.

Meanwhile, there were less and less gigs...overdubbing took a lot of gigs away as did synthesizers, for example, while more and more fine players were showing up, educated in the burgeoning academic system and playing very well.

Everybody had to adapt to the new tech-dominated world.

How do you play live with the finesse of great recording players? Either you have a great sound engineer and great sound equipment on the gig...a laughingly small percentage of real world work...or you find a way to project with power. Just like the earlier players but while simultaneously being capable of settling down in front of a mike and playing with that studio-like finesse.

Case in point...any number of fine young NYC players showed up in the late '60s/early '70s playing fairly large equipment...6.5ALs on King 3Bs being the most common combination. They were simply too much work. Harder to control softly, especially up high, and requiring more strength to play in loud acoustic situations. Downsizing was the answer for most of us. Smaller m'pces, more resistance from the horn...horns like Bachs. That allows for finesse in the upper ranges and...when pressed in terms of volume...a quite forceful, almost too brilliant sound in the mid-to-upper registers.

So now?

What are you doing for work? You need to find equipment that lets you do that. Contemporary ecording is a whole 'nother ball of wax. A good digital guy could make Bill Watrous sound like Gary Valente or vice-versa if so inclined. Broadway-style pit work requires almost symphony-like accuracy and consistency while maintaining a very...neutralish...timbral and attack style, and what goes out into the audience is almost totally controlled by sound engnieers, many of whom are converted stagehands without a clue.. Live, unamplified acoustic big band work? Rare and generally...although often very satisfying musically...not well-paying. Playing amplified styles like salsa and pop/rock? Even miked, if your sound does not have that timbral and attack edge, you might as well not show up.

That's all I know...I have 4 tenor/m'pce combinations that function well for me as lead horns. A couple of them are better high than low, one is pretty even and one is better low than high, but I can pretty much play any chair on any gig on all of them. Then it comes down to craft and choices. If I show up to a gig with the "better low than high" horn...a fairly dark-sounding trigger Shires .525 with a DE 6-sh/5-ish m'pce...and find out I'm supposed to be Tommy Dorsey or Urbie Green or Al Grey or somebody, I'll probably get by with a little help from my friends, but the next gig w/that band I'll bring the right horn. Ditto the reverse. If I show up with a lead horn and find myself on the 3rd chair popping staccato ff low Fs and stretching for lots of 7th position notes, I'll get by. Craft. But the next time I'll have the right equipment for the job.

Mr Natural knew:



Bet on it.

Later...

S.

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

Beautiful answer, Sam. All steak, no balonie.

You almost make it sound like it would be better to ride a bus for 30 years and have 500 mile hops between gigs, than never have the same band or gig twice, like yourself.

Yes, we would all do well to consider the amplification and trumpets playing Monettes. I hadn't thought of that as long as you have.

[ttf_BGuttman]

I think the closest thing we have today to what the lead players of yesterday had is the Military.  Players in military units play together all the time; sometimes even live together.  Lots of rehearsals to iron out the details of getting a precision sound.

Unfortunately, our parsimonious times are not allowing as many of these opportunities any more.  But guys like Doug Elliott, Joe Jackson, and Dave Steinmeyer got good training in what it takes to play lead courtesy of Uncle Sam.

[ttf_RJMason]

Yeah Sam, love your insight!

In NYC I've done big band gigs where the lead guy is on a 3B+, 2nd on a Rath R4, I'm on a 36BG in the tenors.  I've also done Big Band hits with the more normal King 2B Bach 12 players and I'm on a 3B.

Most people will have a gig before or after a big band hit and take the trombone that can cover the most jobs in a given day.  Common conceptions about "blending with the right horn" are thrown out the window.  Silver Sonics paired with Martin Committees paired with Elliot Mason BAC models, and the sections still sound amazing!

Getting the right tool for the job makes all of that work easier, but the players are getting so good that once they have the Lead Trombone sound truly internalized in their brain they can access it on any instrument.

My personal experience, I have played a Hammond 13M on a 3B for a few years--definitely suffered from the King 3B 6.5 size MPC struggles to sound good when I first moved to NYC--but now I have switched to this new AR Resonance mouthpiece and I have gotten the most compliments playing my old Wayne Andre owned Conn 6H.  There are a lot of warm overtones in that bell and people who don't play trombone in the audience or on the bandstand can hear the difference and appreciate it.

I don't think you can go wrong with a nice vintage Conn bell (24H, 6H) or an excellent old 2B Liberty for lead trombone playing.

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: RJMason on Sep 04, 2017, 10:02AMYeah Sam, love your insight!

In NYC I've done big band gigs where the lead guy is on a 3B+, 2nd on a Rath R4, I'm on a 36BG in the tenors.  I've also done Big Band hits with the more normal King 2B Bach 12 players and I'm on a 3B.

Most people will have a gig before or after a big band hit and take the trombone that can cover the most jobs in a given day.  Common conceptions about "blending with the right horn" are thrown out the window.  Silver Sonics paired with Martin Committees paired with Elliot Mason BAC models, and the sections still sound amazing!

Getting the right tool for the job makes all of that work easier, but the players are getting so good that once they have the Lead Trombone sound truly internalized in their brain they can access it on any instrument.

My personal experience, I have played a Hammond 13M on a 3B for a few years--definitely suffered from the King 3B 6.5 size MPC struggles to sound good when I first moved to NYC--but now I have switched to this new AR Resonance mouthpiece and I have gotten the most compliments playing my old Wayne Andre owned Conn 6H.  There are a lot of warm overtones in that bell and people who don't play trombone in the audience or on the bandstand can hear the difference and appreciate it.

I don't think you can go wrong with a nice vintage Conn bell (24H, 6H) or an excellent old 2B Liberty for lead trombone playing.

Well...of course we all do the best we can with what's in our hands and what is surrounding us. I am being very...idealistic...here, myself. Finances enter into all of this as well, and yes we have to make the best of what we've got. However, since this thread is about lead horns, they are what I am referencing. A section should try to match its lead player in every way...rhythmically, in terms of blend, dynamics, attacks, stylistically and so on. When I get called to play an inner part, I try to find out who's playing lead, who is playing the other parts as well and generally what style of orchestration I'll be playing. Then I choose equipment that best matches what will be happening. For example...3rd parts in a 4 tbn. section often function as mostly as an upper structure of the bass tbn. sound, and other times they are more the third part of the tenor section and the bs. tbn more or less on its own. When I play a 3rd part that focuses down more than up in terms of timbre I will either play a bigger bell on my .525 or maybe even bring my .547 horn. But if I have that larger bell on my .525 and it turns out that I should mostly be blending up, the larger bell is kind of an impediment to that blend. Ditto if I am playing 2nd. If a very bright-sounding player is playing lead, my .508/6.5A horn...I kind of have it set up as a smaller Knepper horn timbrally...will make it difficult to blend up to that player. But with a darker, smoother lead player, that .508 is just right. Most people do not do this; instead they rely on their own musicality. But when a section is fine-tuned just right in terms of equipment and musicality...rare, but it happens...then things get really interesting!!!

That's my story, anyway, and I'm stickin' to it.

Later...

S.

[ttf_sabutin]

Quote from: RJMason on Sep 04, 2017, 10:02AMYeah Sam, love your insight!

In NYC I've done big band gigs where the lead guy is on a 3B+, 2nd on a Rath R4, I'm on a 36BG in the tenors.  I've also done Big Band hits with the more normal King 2B Bach 12 players and I'm on a 3B.

Most people will have a gig before or after a big band hit and take the trombone that can cover the most jobs in a given day.  Common conceptions about "blending with the right horn" are thrown out the window.  Silver Sonics paired with Martin Committees paired with Elliot Mason BAC models, and the sections still sound amazing!

Getting the right tool for the job makes all of that work easier, but the players are getting so good that once they have the Lead Trombone sound truly internalized in their brain they can access it on any instrument.

My personal experience, I have played a Hammond 13M on a 3B for a few years--definitely suffered from the King 3B 6.5 size MPC struggles to sound good when I first moved to NYC--but now I have switched to this new AR Resonance mouthpiece and I have gotten the most compliments playing my old Wayne Andre owned Conn 6H.  There are a lot of warm overtones in that bell and people who don't play trombone in the audience or on the bandstand can hear the difference and appreciate it.

I don't think you can go wrong with a nice vintage Conn bell (24H, 6H) or an excellent old 2B Liberty for lead trombone playing.

Well...of course we all do the best we can with what's in our hands and what is surrounding us. I am being very...idealistic...here, myself. Finances enter into all of this as well, and yes we have to make the best of what we've got. However, since this thread is about lead horns, they are what I am referencing. A section should try to match its lead player in every way...rhythmically, in terms of blend, dynamics, attacks, stylistically and so on. When I get called to play an inner part, I try to find out who's playing lead, who is playing the other parts as well and generally what style of orchestration I'll be playing. Then I choose equipment that best matches what will be happening. For example...3rd parts in a 4 tbn. section often function as mostly as an upper structure of the bass tbn. sound, and other times they are more the third part of the tenor section and the bs. tbn more or less on its own. When I play a 3rd part that focuses down more than up in terms of timbre I will either play a bigger bell on my .525 or maybe even bring my .547 horn. But if I have that larger bell on my .525 and it turns out that I should mostly be blending up, the larger bell is kind of an impediment to that blend. Ditto if I am playing 2nd. If a very bright-sounding player is playing lead, my .508/6.5A horn...I kind of have it set up as a smaller Knepper horn timbrally...will make it difficult to blend up to that player. But with a darker, smoother lead player, that .508 is just right. Most people do not do this; instead they rely on their own musicality. But when a section is fine-tuned just right in terms of equipment and musicality...rare, but it happens...then things get really interesting!!!

That's my story, anyway, and I'm stickin' to it.

Later...

S.