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External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:39 pm
by BrianJohnston
Hi all,

Oddly specific question, but i'm interested to figure it out.

Some mouthpieces are very thin looking (vintage/french) & others are very thick (Megatone/stainless steel), i'm wondering what effect this could possibly have on the sound/playing.

Just say that you have two brass 3G mouthpieces, and one is like the one below on the left and the other is like the one on the right. How would they differ?

Anyone have experiences or knowledges on this subject, or just ideas? Would love to hear it.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:58 pm
by harrisonreed
Sure, I'll bite. The heavier blank will be less flexible (ie have slots you can't easily escape from), and feel like it is transferring more energy into the horn and projecting more. I say feel like, because the mouthpiece doesn't do anything on its own.

A lighter blank, likewise, will feel more flexible. Vibrato is easier, but holding loud sustained notes without vibrato will seem more difficult.

If you compare the Greg Black Alessi mouthpieces, with a very heavy blank and relatively conventional shape with the Lindberg 4CL design, you can see where the two blank choices sort of dictate the rest of the mouthpiece design. The Alessi piece has a flatter, wider rim which adds stability and makes the slot feel deeper.

The Lindberg piece has one of the largest throat diameters ever, probably to compensate for the reduced feeling of projection. The rim is very narrow and round, which makes flexibility feel easier.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:25 pm
by BrianJohnston
Thanks for jumping in! This is great and makes complete sense to my ideas.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:05 pm
by Burgerbob
From my experience with various weights of Greg Blacks (all the same size and spec otherwise):

Lighter feels loose, less energy required to start notes, but to me feels brittle and hard to center.

Regular weight is the goldilocks zone for me. Jack of all trades. Good sound, good response, good feedback.

Star weight (same weight as regular, different shape) felt ok, but seemed worse than the regular in all aspects. No reason for me to choose it over regular.

Medium weight (heavier than regular) feels thunky... like too many of the higher overtones are gone (what makes people think they are making more core to the sound), and giving up response in lower dynamics. Some heavier pieces also occlude your feedback a lot (I find this in stainless pieces).

Keep in mind as well that different specs will behave differently! A GB 5G made from the same blank as a GB 1G will mass a LOT more in all specs, simply because there is so much more material removed from a bass trombone mouthpiece. That's why a medium weight bass piece can still be totally viable, and a lightweight tenor piece is totally viable. That's also why the standard Bach tenor blank is fine for almost everything in that size, IMO.

Also, these are my thoughts from behind the bell, not necessarily out front.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:00 am
by FOSSIL
It's not just a simple overall mass issue....where the weight is... or isn't on a mouthpiece has an effect. Bach messed around with mass in the NY and MV years...it's subtle but real .....if you own enough early mouthpieces you can see it.

Chris

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:23 am
by ChadA
I agree with Chris. Overall mass plays a part, but mass distribution is also a factor. The Wick Classic and Heritage series are a case in point. Mouthpieces of the same size but from each series are theoretically very close to each other in internal dimensions/shapes (if not the same), but the outer shapes are not. The Classic series has more mass at the rim and top of the cup while the Heritage has more mass at the bottom of the cup. Overall weights of the ones I've owned are not wildly different (pretty negligible) but they play differently. I much prefer the Classic series with weight near the rim; others prefer the Heritage.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:19 am
by Pre59
Re adding mass lower on the mp, for Denis Wick users there's often DW Boosters for sale on eBay. There's a Bass Tbn size on there at the moment (UK). I still have one, and there were times when it was useful, like playing a lower parts on a smaller horn, but overall I didn't care for it.
They fit certain smaller "Marcs" as well.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:54 am
by timothy42b
IMO.

To discern a difference requires playing at an extremely high level - both in terms of note to note, day to day, consistency, and in having very refined listening skills.

There are people on this forum who do both, and it makes sense to listen to them. It doesn't necessarily make sense that the rest of us can notice these differences, at least not in the same way.

It is even possible to notice a difference that isn't really there.

Re: External Mouthpiece Shape & the effects of playing

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:00 am
by PSJ
Been a long couple of weeks but I did want to give some input for what it is worth. I have been playing Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces for the better part of the last 40 years. Mostly the Bass Trombone No. 1. When the Concert Hall model came out I had them make me one in that size. The feel and sound behind the bell is different. Normal shape feels a little more centered/crisp while the concert hall version feels a little more open/dark/maybe a bit diffused.

Now, out in front of the bell, there really does not seem to be any difference. I have done some recordings while practicing, no discernable difference. My section mates say no difference. I sound like me on either one.

Marcinkiewicz has a pretty good reputation for their mouthpieces being consistent so I am pretty confident that the interior dimensions are the same. Both the Concert Hall and the regular No. 1 are Oregon mouthpieces. I have not compared the CH to my Glendale or my Burbank No. 1s.

Just the observations of an old guy.