TromboneChat

I got a euphonium to learn valves and offer some variety, as well as allieve some ergonomic issues with trombones. It has worked well, and I enjoy it.

But now I'm wondering about baritones. Do you euph players also play baritone? What do you like about it? Any favorite models or things I should look for if I'm interested in getting one?

It depends on what kind of "baritone" you mean. Selecting a proper British one is different than selecting the bell front American definition of a baritone.
If you mean a bell front, don't bother unless you need a beater because your euphonium will probably do as well, though I will say bell front ones go rather cheap due to their ubiquity in school systems.
If you mean a British brass band baritone, I honestly don't know.

To clarify , I'm probably interested in a 4 valve, valve front horn. 4 v for intonation and front valves for ergonomic reasons. Looking for a more tromboney sound than my Wessex Festivo euph, but not quite trombonium level. That probably means an older American baritone horn like a Conn Connstellation or a King 2266 or a Reynolds, Olds, or something like that. I think I can do without compensation.

The 3 valve compensating besson baritones are so fun and addicting to play.
Edit: Go for the conn

20th century American style baritones such as the Conn, King, Olds, Holton, etc. models ARE euphoniums - they are just the traditional American style rather than the British-style euphoniums we all play these days. It used to be that baritone was the American word for euphonium - it wasn't a different instrument so much as a different style, much the same way that the French used to use small bore trombones while the Germans used dual bore instruments with large bells and so on. What really confused the issue was that the British also had the other brass band 9' Bb instrument which was also called "baritone" -- and people got the mistaken idea that the American instrument was some sort of hybrid or compromise.

Anyways, these instruments are now relegated to community bands and beginners because, well, they just aren't anywhere near as good as the British-style instruments. Intonation, response, timbre... all of them are lacking in comparison. The one place where they still have some popularity, oddly, is as a bass instrument in German oom-pah bands, I suppose because of the availability of front-facing bells and because piston valves are somewhat more suited to some of the athletics these players achieve than the rotary models.

That said, the Conn 24i and 25i are generally regarded as the best of the bunch. But the timbre difference between that and your Festivo is going to be pretty subtle. Not tromboney so much as unrefined. They just didn't get the same acoustical development as the British-style instruments got.

I love british-style baritone horn! It's a much darker sound than most people think but it has the ability to get into trombone territory too. It's much more appealing than a trombonium which I find to be like a bad valve trombone - stuffy and ugly. I think the Yamaha Neo YBH-831S is the best instrument in this category, much better response and intonation than the Besson standard, but -- these are only 3-valve top-action instruments.

Have you considered a rotary-valve German-style tenorhorn? Something like a Miraphone 47WL, or Alexander 146 would seem to suit your needs really well. These have a sound that is more colorful and bigger than the british baritone, and are generally much better instruments and more fun to play than american euphoniums. Unfortunately, harder to get and more rare here in the US.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:52 pm Have you considered a rotary-valve German-style tenorhorn? Something like a Miraphone 47WL, or Alexander 146 would seem to suit your needs really well. These have a sound that is more colorful and bigger than the british baritone, and are generally much better instruments and more fun to play than american euphoniums. Unfortunately, harder to get and more rare here in the US.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I hadn't really considered a german style instrument. I was looking for something somewhat compact and honestly, in the <$500 range, well used, as this is getting down there on my list of doubles. If I didn't have shoulder issues, I'd probably be happy with a British 4v on top instrument with a smaller bell throat.

I've owned a marching baritone style instrument, but the ergonomics with my shoulder issue make that not very comfortable for long periods, plus, I'd really like a 4v.

I think something like an old King 1171/1173/1179 from the 1930's might be what I'm looking for.

I just picked up a Conn Constellation. Bear in mind you made need a medium shank mpc for it. It took me by suprise.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:34 am I just picked up a Conn Constellation. Bear in mind you made need a medium shank mpc for it. It took me by suprise.

How do you like it? That's one model that I'm looking at.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:23 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:34 am I just picked up a Conn Constellation. Bear in mind you made need a medium shank mpc for it. It took me by suprise.

How do you like it? That's one model that I'm looking at.

It's pretty good so far. Slots a bit different than I'm used to or remember. Makes playing tuba seem easy. I have to get some work done but it's a good horn. My other choice would've been a King front action 4 valve.

Basically no one owns both a Euph and a British baritone unless they play in a British brass band. It's a specialty instrument and outside of using it for solo playing or British brass band there isn't a use for it.

I do love a good British Baritone! A proper British Baritone has a unique blow and sound not at all like a Euph or American Baritone. Yamaha and Besson
are basically the only horns out there.

Do note that the American Baritone is not the same thing as a British Baritone and does not sound the same. Outside of owning one for fun they have even less practical use. Cool horns though!

In the early 1960s, when I first got interested in the instruments I was playing alongside in British brass bands, I asked someone what the difference was between the baritone and the euphonium. The answer was that, using B&H/Besson instruments, the baritone was the tenor member of the saxhorn family whereas the euphonium was the tenor member of the tuba family. Back then it was much easier to see the difference as the euphonium had the wider bell throat and the smaller bell flare, just like the tubas (aka EEb and BBb basses) These days the British euphoniums and tubas have got larger, more pronounced bell flares.
The sounds produced were very different, the baritone producing a lighter sound to match the tenor horn (alto horn) whereas the euphonium produced a more robust sound to match the tubas and to have the sonority to perform as a solo instrument.
I recently played a baritone when I played in a production of Barnum. I had the trombone part which doubled baritone in the marching band-cornet, baritone, sousaphone and bass drum. We were the highlight of the show- well we got the most laughs!

Cheers

Stewbones

Well, Trent Hamilton, whatever you think of him, has a back to back to back comparison. I have to say that the British baritone has the most attractive sound in this example. I'm not too concerned about where I can play it. I'm not playing anything anywhere but at home right now anyway. I'm not too sure it would work for me from an ergonomic point of view, though, so I'll just stick with my Festivo.

There was a very interesting episode of the Early American Brass Band podcast a few months ago that featured and interview with one of the Marine Band euph players. This guy has done an entire dissertation on the history of the euphonium/baritone/whatever you want to call it. He says that the term "euphonium" was used by King and Conn as a marketing ploy to sell their double bell instruments. They referred to a single bell horn as a baritone and a double bell as a euphonium. Interestingly, he also said that very few players ever actually used the alternate bell.

https://eabbpodcast.com/ - Look for episode 3. Also some fascinating history of the Marine Band in there.