TromboneChat

Does anyone know of anywhere to get a Bach 1G for tenor trombone or an equivalent to it? Or anyone willing to sell it if they have something like that.

What tenor trombone?  A 1G should fit in a large bore tenor or anything with a large shank receiver... although it might play a little flat. THat's a big mouthpiece for a tenor.  If you're looking for a small shank, you're probably going to have to look somewhere other than Bach. Technically they make small shank bass peices on special order but they take ages to get and are more expensive than the stock stuff. 

Are you looking to double on a small bore horn? You might want to consider a piece like a Doug Elliott. He has a 3 piece system where you can use the same rim on smaller cups/shanks.  Something like an LB114/C/C3 would be kind of appropriate for a small bore horn. At lot moreseo than a Bach 1G at least.

As someone who uses a large rim on tenor and likes big mouthpieces and tons of air in general I have found that large bass mouthpieces don’t do well in a tenor. I have used a 1-1/2G in some tenors and that’s about as large as I think a general mouthpiece design can get until things just don’t work on a tenor. I tried a bit with various 1G analagous pieces in Holtons, Bachs, Yamahas, and Shires’.

Obligatory plug:

What does work is Doug Elliott’s mouthpieces set up with the right underparts for the horn and rim for your face.

You can get a Warburton 1B and a shank for it that fits a small bore.  I wouldn't recommend it.

I got a 3B with a 4 shank and tried it in my Conn 40H.  WOOFFYY.  Not a bass trombone sound.  Not a tenor trombone sound.  Not even "Euphonium on a stick".  Note that a Warburton 3B is about the size of a Bach 1 1/2 G.  I loaned it to a Euph player to try on his Yamaha 321.  He didn't even like it.

What purpose to you have in mind for it?

I assume you're talking about a small shank, right?

Well I’m trying to look for a tenor trombone mouthpiece that can give me a really good bass trombone sound and I wanted to see if there was a 1G since I’m used to using that mouthpiece. I was looking for something to fit a small bore trombone.

Quote from: jcapp45 on Sep 23, 2017, 08:50PMWell I’m trying to look for a tenor trombone mouthpiece that can give me a really good bass trombone sound and I wanted to see if there was a 1G since I’m used to using that mouthpiece. I was looking for something to fit a small bore trombone.

There's a lot to unpack here...

So, from what I can tell, you are a bass trombone player that uses a 1G mouthpiece, and you want to emulate your bass trombone sound on a small bore trombone.

The physics and plausibility of that aside, why do you want to sound like a bass trombone on a small bore trombone? Why wouldn't you just use...I don't know...a bass trombone?

In short, if you went and got a 1G mouthpiece made with a small shank, plugged it into whatever horn you are using, and played with it, it wouldn't sound like a bass trombone. In fact, for everyone except the best players, it'd probably sound like hot garbage.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys who get a big sound on small bore trombones. But they don't use ginormous mouthpieces to do it.

I know a colleague who played bass trombone for years and because of the situation in his Community Band was "moving up".  He got a Bach 42B and has been using smaller and smaller mouthpieces in an attempt to get a "tenor sound" (and get better high range).  He's at a 4G now, but he still sounds like a bass trombone.  I'm pretty sure it's his approach.

As I mentioned with my Warburton experiment, putting a bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor really isn't a way to make it sound like a bass trombone.  And why would you?  You already have a bass trombone. 

Quote from: JasonDonnelly on Sep 23, 2017, 09:10PMThere's a lot to unpack here...

So, from what I can tell, you are a bass trombone player that uses a 1G mouthpiece, and you want to emulate your bass trombone sound on a small bore trombone.

The physics and plausibility of that aside, why do you want to sound like a bass trombone on a small bore trombone? Why wouldn't you just use...I don't know...a bass trombone?

In short, if you went and got a 1G mouthpiece made with a small shank, plugged it into whatever horn you are using, and played with it, it wouldn't sound like a bass trombone. In fact, for everyone except the best players, it'd probably sound like hot garbage.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of guys who get a big sound on small bore trombones. But they don't use ginormous mouthpieces to do it.

Perhaps put more diplomatically:

Slide Hampton played a bass trombone (Bach 50) for a long time in the context of other small horns, though he was trying to get something similar to the sound of JJ Johnson. But he never went larger than a 1.5G.  I'm not aware of anyone using a mouthpiece bigger than that (successfully or otherwise) for the same context, though I know of a few bass trombonists who double using Doug's setup with their normal (or slightly smaller) rim on a shallow cup; much shallower than a 1G. (E.g. The LB114/C/C3 combination I mentioned earlier)

Another way to phrase the question might be: What is the largest rim available on a small shank that is available commercially?
That's something I have wondered myself. 

The fact that we've all responded to this is disturbing. Sometimes the sound of silence works best.

Quote from: EdGrissom on Sep 24, 2017, 05:03AMAnother way to phrase the question might be: What is the largest rim available on a small shank that is available commercially?
That's something I have wondered myself. 

Doug's stock parts include a TU132 (large tuba rim), with a TU G (roughly depth of Bach 5G, and a G small shank (2-5). He says the G would be used for euph doubling so it probably works on say a YSL321.

Quote from: BGuttman on Sep 24, 2017, 04:33AM---snip---
... putting a bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor really isn't a way to make it sound like a bass trombone.  And why would you?  You already have a bass trombone. 

He doesn't say he's got a bass bone. In his profile he writes
"i own a pbone but used to play a yamaha bass bone".

Quote from: jcapp45 on Sep 23, 2017, 08:50PMWell I’m trying to look for a tenor trombone mouthpiece that can give me a really good bass trombone sound and I wanted to see if there was a 1G since I’m used to using that mouthpiece. I was looking for something to fit a small bore trombone.

You will not get a really good bass trombone sound with a 1G on a small bore tenor trombone.

If we could all perfectly emulate the sounds of different-sized trombones just by switching mouthpieces, why would anyone have more than one horn?

Switching mouthpieces is like bending a note.
If you play a low Bb, then with just your embouchure, you can bend it down to an A, or you can bend it up to a B-natural. Maybe you can bend it a little further in either direction. But (a) the further you bend from a Bb, the wonkier it'll sound, and (b) there are physical limits to how far the pitch can be bent; you can't bend it up to a high Bb, 'cos that's not bending, that's a whole different partial.
Similarly, you can coax a trombone into sounding a little bit larger or a little bit smaller just by switching the mouthpiece. But (a) if you use a disproportionately large or small mouthpiece, it'll sound wonky, and (b) there are limits to the sound quality you can get out of a single horn.


You can try it anyway, if you insist, despite everyone's advice here to the contrary, and see for yourself. 


If you can't afford to buy a bass trombone right now, my advice: embrace the sound of the small bore.

What's wrong with weird sound on a budget?

Quote from: hassein on Sep 24, 2017, 07:11AMWhat's wrong with weird sound on a budget?


The audience doesn't care if you are on a budget or not. That's what is wrong.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Sep 24, 2017, 08:37AM
The audience doesn't care if you are on a budget or not. That's what is wrong.

Depending on the context, the audience might not care about the sound, for better or for worse 

Quote from: Matt K on Sep 24, 2017, 08:47AMDepending on the context, the audience might not care about the sound, for better or for worse 

I suppose. Sometimes you have to make do or get creative, I'm sure we have all been there. I think it's healthy to assume the audience will care though, in any situation, and from there just make sure you take care of everything in your control. This sounds like the kind of thing that can be pretty easily avoided.... 

Quote from: hassein on Sep 24, 2017, 07:11AMWhat's wrong with weird sound on a budget?

A few things...

I don't know if the OP is aware that large bore tenors and basses have the same size shank - doesn't seem clear, so I'll clarify just in case.

a 1G will not work on a small bore horn. It will definitely mess up the tuning. A 6.5AL on a 2B (a combination I played for over 20 years) made the horn play flat, and every 2B I played with that setup required a cutting of the tuning slide to get it in tune. A 2G I played on once (what the hell I was thinking I do not know) made the partials so out of alignment I couldn't play the damn thing. Wrangling everything in tune would tire me out after about 20 minutes.

The Slide Hampton approach works well, if you are dedicated to it. From reading your profile I don't know that you are that dedicated to it. It's definitely not for everybody, and the guys who do it well have good fundamentals and play a bunch, or they wouldn't be able to get through a gig.

If you want to play a small horn, use small horn equipment. Contact Doug Elliot. I play a Williams 6 with an elliot mouthpiece and a 102 rim (which is about a 4 size rim I think) but the cup and backbore are more appropriate for the size of horn so I don't have near the tuning issues I would have if I was playing a Bach 4G with the huge tenor cup in there.

Bass and Tenor are different instruments. Yes, they are the same at a fundamental level, but the approach and mouthpiece needed make them fundamentally different. Embrace it.

And if you want a bass trombone sound, play bass trombone. If you just want a "bigger" sound, practice. That's not something equipment can fix - unless you're playing on a pBone - better equipment can definitely help you there.

Quote from: EdGrissom on Sep 24, 2017, 05:03AMAnother way to phrase the question might be: What is the largest rim available on a small shank that is available commercially?
That's something I have wondered myself. 
I think it is a small shank Griego Alessi 1 (26.92 mm/1.060"). Just about (or sames as) a Bach 2G size.

Warburton offers a 1 cup which is 1.16".  It's intended for bass trombone, but you can attach ANY Warburton backbore including the tenor shanks (1 through 6, 6 being the largest).  As I mentioned before, I won't guarantee performance; but you asked.

http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/trombone-mouthpieces

Doug Elliott's Small Bass series goes up to 1.10" rim and is available with small shanks (2, 3, and 4). 

I think the Griego Alessi pieces are more suited to tenor with wide rim and compensatingly shallow cup.

Virtually ALL of my cups in EVERY series are available with small shanks, or any shank size for that matter.  If I don't already make it I'll design it.
And for the most part, I can make them work without serious intonation issues.  Even if it seems like a ridiculous combination.  There are limits to that...  I'll go try an LB L cup with small shank now, I have one in stock.

I play on Doug's XTN106 C+ D3 for my jazz work, it works very well for both lead and section playing. It is basically the rim of a Bach 2G on a 7c cup (there is a lot more to it in Doug's designs but that is a generalization) .It is entirely possible, and no, there are no inherent intonation issues. I love it. I can't play on small mouthpieces, it just doesn't work for me.

A friend has a small shank Bach 1.5G

Doesn't use it, I think he keeps it in his case as a novelty/conversation piece   

I've never tried it, don't know how it plays.

Jerry Walker

A friend has a small shank Bach 1.5G

Doesn't use it, I think he keeps it in his case as a novelty/conversation piece   

I've never tried it, don't know how it plays.

Jerry Walker