Someone on my "most underrated horns" thread said that the same brand would be mentioned over and over again if I made this thread. This is the ying to my yang.
What horns cost more than a used sedan, but aren't even worth as much as the cases they come in?
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:33 pm
by Thrawn22
Yamaha.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:39 pm
by Mv2541
Getzen Eternas, Jinbao altos/Euphs (even for the money), Bach Artisan 42s, Benge 165, King 4B, Getzen Bousfield, Shires TIS altos, Bach 50s with the 10.5 bell, Holton Superbone, Courtois 550, King 2B Jiggs, dual bore Bach 16s, the older Eastman by Shires tenors...
All just opinion that I'm sure some will disagree with
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:41 pm
by JCBone
Hobart wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:17 pm
Someone on my "most underrated horns" thread said that the same brand would be mentioned over and over again if I made this thread. This is the ying to my yang.
What horns cost more than a used sedan, but aren't even worth as much as the cases they come in?
And the hypothesis was correct.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:42 pm
by Elow
3Bs have never done the trick for me, some people will call me crazy, ive liked every other king except the 3B
Also, mount vernon bachs... ive played 2 and neither were so incredible that i’d switch from my current horn to it. I’m sure there’s great ones, i just haven’t played a great one yet.
Hobart wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:17 pm
Someone on my "most underrated horns" thread said that the same brand would be mentioned over and over again if I made this thread. This is the ying to my yang.
What horns cost more than a used sedan, but aren't even worth as much as the cases they come in?
And the hypothesis was correct.
Without empirical data, subjective inference runs amok and as the saying goes, opinions are like a$$holes....
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:52 pm
by WGWTR180
Why is this in the Classifieds?????? Selling some overrated horns?
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:55 pm
by hyperbolica
Listing under rated horns is easy, fun, and no one gets hurt. But calling a horn over rated is going to make you some enemies. Plus, you'll have to scoff at common wisdom, which is nearly always over rated. let's see what happens.
Most Over Rated:
- Anything that BAC added something to
- Anything from Thein - I know, they are great horns, but for that price, come on, how can you not be over rated?
- Anything from Monette
- Anything with 562/578 slides, such as the Getzen 1062 - big, woofy, uncentered
- Anything with axial valves - not that they don't sometimes play great, just that even when they do, there are other considerations, like weight, maintenance, etc, most of which weigh against axials. If you need big valves, hagmanns are a better choice, as are CLs, Tru-bore, etc
- Large bore Shires - they just feel very sterile to me, but I like all the small bores I've played
- Small bore Bach
- Yamahas more than 15 years old
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:09 pm
by Kingfan
Mv2541 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:39 pm
Getzen Eternas, Jinbao altos/Euphs (even for the money), Bach Artisan 42s, Benge 165, King 4B, Getzen Bousfield, Shires TIS altos, Bach 50s with the 10.5 bell, Holton Superbone, Courtois 550, King 2B Jiggs, dual bore Bach 16s, the older Eastman by Shires tenors...
All just opinion that I'm sure some will disagree with
Kings, eh? Meet me in the parking lot and we'll settle this like men!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:12 pm
by spencercarran
Yamaha 321 euphonium - it's identical to their entry level student euph but with a fourth valve slapped on, and 4 valve non-compensating euphoniums don't provide much practical benefit. They've done a fantastic job marketing it as a higher-end intermediate/step-up euph to credulous band directors, but it's just not a very good instrument.
Old Elkhart Conn 88h - they're not bad at all, they're perfectly usable instruments, but the amount of hype/reverence for them is overblown. Plenty of other horns also work fine.
I've heard some thoroughly unimpressive sounds coming out of (pre-Eastman) Shires trombones, but that probably had more to do with the players. That might be the real answer - any instrument with a high enough reputation to command a premium price is overrated because no instrument, no matter how expensive, does anything to fix problems in the musician's technique.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:37 pm
by BGuttman
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:52 pm
Why is this in the Classifieds?????? Selling some overrated horns?
Moved where it belongs: Instruments. Thanks for the observation, Bill.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:08 pm
by JCBone
I'n gonna say that all the fancy boutiqe brands (Edwards, Shires, Rath, Thein) are overated in the sense that many people(young people in particular) seem to think that you are getting "more trombone" than aay a good bach or conn. That just isn't true. You're paying extra for the custumobility and modulatory and I guess the consistancy too (although some may considee that a disadvantage) Anyways the point is that an edwards isn't nessecarily better than a bach.
Mv2541 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:39 pm
Getzen Eternas, Jinbao altos/Euphs (even for the money), Bach Artisan 42s, Benge 165, King 4B, Getzen Bousfield, Shires TIS altos, Bach 50s with the 10.5 bell, Holton Superbone, Courtois 550, King 2B Jiggs, dual bore Bach 16s, the older Eastman by Shires tenors...
All just opinion that I'm sure some will disagree with
Kings, eh? Meet me in the parking lot and we'll settle this like men!
I'm quite a fan of the 2b & 3b but they don't really jive with me for some reason. I have never played a 4b that I thought was worth it's weight in scrap. A girl I dated had one back when we were in highschool and it was a real dog in just about every conceivable way; some guy at Dillon's convinced her to get it over a newer Bach 36 and she regretted it until she stopped playing.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:28 pm
by harrisonreed
Anything that isn't in my arsenal right now
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:02 pm
by elmsandr
The Bach 36. Never found one that sat right with me.to big to be a small horn, too small to be a big horn.
That said, the horn that has earned me more money than any other... a Bach 34. Love that horn and it fits in everywhere no matter what I do with it.
Cheers,
Andy
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:09 pm
by Finetales
The Getzen frumpet.
The instrument is universally maligned more than any other brass instrument, and that's still too good for it.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:51 pm
by imsevimse
I usually avoid new horns because they are very expensive, but I did try Shires when they got them in a shop here in Stockholm and I wasn't impressed. This was when the hype for Shires was big and everyone talked about them. I was happy I did not need to get one. After I tried I think they are overrated. All Thayers I've played have been overrated. Any modernized old horn were the valve havè been replaced were expensive but not close to prior the change. That's overrated to me.
/Tom
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:25 pm
by hyperbolica
There's another class of over rated horns, and that's the kind that you constantly hear about but most of us will never be able to even touch one. Not that these aren't great horns, I'm sure they are, but I'll probably never get the chance to play one.
-Williams any model
-Minick 100h
-Fuchs 70h
-Elkhart 62h
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:12 pm
by Bach5G
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:25 pm
There's another class of over rated horns, and that's the kind that you constantly hear about but most of us will never be able to even touch one. Not that these aren't great horns, I'm sure they are, but I'll probably never get the chance to play one.
-Williams any model
-Minick 100h
-Fuchs 70h
-Elkhart 62h
Gee, I had 3 of those. There’s one I’d like back.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:31 pm
by Thrawn22
I forgot to say anything B.A.C. (aka big and crappy).
Mv2541 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:39 pm
Getzen Eternas, Jinbao altos/Euphs (even for the money), Bach Artisan 42s, Benge 165, King 4B, Getzen Bousfield, Shires TIS altos, Bach 50s with the 10.5 bell, Holton Superbone, Courtois 550, King 2B Jiggs, dual bore Bach 16s, the older Eastman by Shires tenors...
All just opinion that I'm sure some will disagree with
Kings, eh? Meet me in the parking lot and we'll settle this like men!
I got your back, Kingfan. I would suggest out by the flagpole after school.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:51 am
by WGWTR180
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:55 pm
Listing under rated horns is easy, fun, and no one gets hurt. But calling a horn over rated is going to make you some enemies. Plus, you'll have to scoff at common wisdom, which is nearly always over rated. let's see what happens.
Most Over Rated:
- Anything that BAC added something to
- Anything from Thein - I know, they are great horns, but for that price, come on, how can you not be over rated?
- Anything from Monette
- Anything with 562/578 slides, such as the Getzen 1062 - big, woofy, uncentered
- Anything with axial valves - not that they don't sometimes play great, just that even when they do, there are other considerations, like weight, maintenance, etc, most of which weigh against axials. If you need big valves, hagmanns are a better choice, as are CLs, Tru-bore, etc
- Large bore Shires - they just feel very sterile to me, but I like all the small bores I've played
- Small bore Bach
- Yamahas more than 15 years old
Love this!! Agree 100%!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:52 am
by WGWTR180
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:25 pm
There's another class of over rated horns, and that's the kind that you constantly hear about but most of us will never be able to even touch one. Not that these aren't great horns, I'm sure they are, but I'll probably never get the chance to play one.
-Williams any model
-Minick 100h
-Fuchs 70h
-Elkhart 62h
However this I completely disagree with. LOL!!!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:59 am
by sf105
<Head above parapet>
Holton 181. They were coming in when I was in college and everyone got one, including me. Then a couple of years later everyone moved off them, including me. I know other people really like them.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:52 am
by WGWTR180
sf105 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:59 am
<Head above parapet>
Holton 181. They were coming in when I was in college and everyone got one, including me. Then a couple of years later everyone moved off them, including me. I know other people really like them.
I'm not sure too many people think that the 181 was a great instrument to begin with.
sf105 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:59 am
<Head above parapet>
Holton 181. They were coming in when I was in college and everyone got one, including me. Then a couple of years later everyone moved off them, including me. I know other people really like them.
I'm not sure too many people think that the 181 was a great instrument to begin with.
I don't know about the basic design or not, but I think mine was a great instrument.
I'm not sure too many people think that the 181 was a great instrument to begin with.
I don't know about the basic design or not, but I think mine was a great instrument.
Was there a lot of variance in the 181? I only ever tried one briefly and felt it was nearly unplayable.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:23 am
by Posaunus
I briefly had a Holton TR-160 (0.547" bore, F-attachment). Not in great condition when I got it, still very meh after refurbishment. Sold it to a friend who needed an F-attachment horn. He's happy; I'm glad for him. The only decent Holtons I've encountered were their bass trombones. Is that just me?
I don't know about the basic design or not, but I think mine was a great instrument.
Was there a lot of variance in the 181? I only ever tried one briefly and felt it was nearly unplayable.
Well yes and no. The 181 was generally thought to be over braced. I played 1 once that was nice but sold it to a student going to college. Lead pipes can also make a difference-stock pipes were inconsistent.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:13 pm
by bigbandbone
Duo Gravis! Love the sound, hate the ergonomics! Even with split triggers, very uncomfortable!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:21 pm
by EOlson9
I'm probably in the minority but I'd say any Bach. Used to own a 42BO but when I got to play an 88HYO I was immediately wanting to switch. Didn't help either that my 42 was having severe red rot issues less than 3 years after buying it and getting nowhere with Bach or the place I got it from. Also had to borrow 42's a couple of times from friends when I had a horn in for repair. Not sure I could ever go back to a Bach.
Kings, eh? Meet me in the parking lot and we'll settle this like men!
I got your back, Kingfan. I would suggest out by the flagpole after school.
I've got your back as well Kingfan!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:59 pm
by heinzgries
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:55 pm
- Anything from Thein - I know, they are great horns, but for that price, come on, how can you not be over rated?
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:55 pm
- Anything from Thein - I know, they are great horns, but for that price, come on, how can you not be over rated?
Made in Germany by very good craftsmen with good quality parts. Plus a tax for the brand name!
I've got to say, my Thein alto is the finest trombone I've ever played. It's so much better than all the other altos I've played.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:37 pm
by Burgerbob
Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:33 pm
I've got to say, my Thein alto is the finest trombone I've ever played. It's so much better than all the other altos I've played.
I've played some really amazing Theins. But were they worth $4k+ more than their American counterparts?
Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:33 pm
I've got to say, my Thein alto is the finest trombone I've ever played. It's so much better than all the other altos I've played.
I've played some really amazing Theins. But were they worth $4k+ more than their American counterparts?
I traded my shires alto for the thein. Best deal I ever got.
Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:33 pm
I've got to say, my Thein alto is the finest trombone I've ever played. It's so much better than all the other altos I've played.
I've played some really amazing Theins. But were they worth $4k+ more than their American counterparts?
I have to admit I am a bit out of the loop but when I was studying and working in Germany they were even more expensive than all their competitors, like Lätzsch and Throja and Kromat.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:08 pm
by UncleJenny
RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:47 pm
I have to admit I am a bit out of the loop but when I was studying and working in Germany they were even more expensive than all their competitors, like Lätzsch and Throja and Kromat.
Still are. As are the Lätzsch.
Like the price difference between a Throja and a Lätzsch, both with standart gold brass configuration, is about 2500 Euros (incl. VAT).
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 6:29 pm
by rptbone
Bach Corporation era- all hype
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 7:20 pm
by Mr412
Any horn listed for sale at full retail price.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:42 am
by Retrobone
Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:23 am
The only decent Holtons I've encountered were their bass trombones. Is that just me?
Yes....
I have a great tr 150 from 1975, which I use a lot (professionally). Admittedly my tr 180 is even better~!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 1:25 am
by Pezza
Yamaha. Their older tenors are OK, but newer ones especially bass are crap.
Holton. Haven't played 1 I liked at all, both bass & tenor.
Bach 16 & 42. I like 12, 36 & 50!
Shires, Edwards, Rath. Dont think the extra money is worth it.
Benson Prestige euphonium & baritone.
Yamaha YEP 321 euphonium. Hyped as a good intermediate, feels to me like a student with an extra valve. Love the 641 & 842!
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:22 am
by EriKon
Interesting to see the YEP-321 being mentioned again in here. The YEP-321 to me is a really great instrument and served me well in many contexts, varying from bigband to pit shows to wind orchestra. Likely wouldn't play orchestral stuff on it, but for everything else it is perfect. Mine intonates really well, sounds very full despite the small shank it takes and plays easily. Also got many positive comments about my euphonium sound and playing on that particular instrument. But everyone feels different of course.
Re: most overrated horns
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 7:28 am
by hyperbolica
Of the Holton tenors, I've enjoyed the 156 and 159, and I know people who like the 150 and 158. But I agree the 181 bass is hard to like.
