TromboneChat

I'm a lower intermediate jazz player. i've been in a brass band, i'm looking for a new one, and i'm also looking to get into EDM brass.

Here's my dilemma. I have a silver plated (not sterling) 1978 king 3b forn with an F attachment. it's a lovely sounding instrument and i got it for a great price, $900. I'm thinking I could sell it for around $2k?

What I hate about this horn is the maintenance. I never really use the F attachment as much as i thought since I stopped playing in the community orchestra. I'd occasionally use it in my brass band but not really enough to justify it. But I do love my horn. You can love things that piss you off.

I'm a stickler for cleaning/polishing my instrument. I only really enjoy it when it sounds at its best. I know I would be more encouraged to play it more often if the maintenance was easier.

I want a horn without an F attachment. However:
-silver plated trombones are hard to find!
-I'd be fairly indecisive if I wanted to get a sterling horn (i love silver horns), raw brass, king 3B plus..?
-Should I buy a new horn and keep my old one? Maybe sell it if I stop playing it entirely? Should I trade? Sell the horn for a good price and buy a rare silver plated horn out in the ether somewhere?

Would love your general musings/input.

First, I doubt you would be able to get $2000 for a King 3BF that is not SilverSonic (sterling bell).

Silver plated horns are available, although they are not as popular as lacquer. If you look hard you should be able to find a silver plated instrument. They seem to be popular among US High School bands in the South.

You might be able to swap your 3B-F for a 3B straight. You may lose some money in the swap -- straight 3Bs usually sell for a little less than 3B-Fs. But it's not always the case. There was a time when 3B-F trombones sold for less than straight 3B trombones.

Good luck.

Might want to look into a 2b, silver plated 2bs are a lot more common and you could still keep your 3b to fill a different roll if needed. Or even cheaper, a conn 4h

From what i've found online, there are a few silver plated horns but they're pricer than sterling. Maybe it's becauese the only ones I can find are brand new, and there's plenty of used sterling out there.

I've listened to some demos and i like the fullness that a sterling horn can offer. I wouldn't mind the sterling over the plated at this point.

What do you think my horn would sell for? It's in excellent condition.

If you'd prefer a straight 3B, then go ahead - plenty out there from which to choose!

But I don't quite understand

leafylief wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:57 pm What I hate about this horn is the maintenance.

vs

I'm a stickler for cleaning/polishing my instrument.

...when you're considering another silver plated instrument, any of which are going to require more-or-less the same polishing routine. (Solid sterling Kings are lacquered IIRC - someone will correct me if that's wrong.) Beyond that, what's the onerous maintenance issue? A 3BF valve should require relatively minimal attention - if it's constantly problematic, it's crying out for a service.

If you like the sound you get from the 3b... get a good tech to convert it to a straight horn for you. I’ve done that before and they did it at no cost as long as they got to keep the rotor section... that will be your cheapest option, and, it doesn’t take that long.

You won't be able to get $2k for a 1978 king 3BF unless you want to feel guilty about tricking someone who doesn't know better.

Some conundrums:

1. You hate maintenance but you love polishing silver...
2. You sometimes use your F attachment, but feel like you need to justify it to keep it. The 3BF F attachment is one of the least intrusive F attachments available. If you don't use it you can nearly forget it's there.
3. You love silver, hate maintenance, but are considering getting a raw brass horn...

Anyways, I'd keep the 3BF. You said you like it.

deanmccarty wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:46 pm If you like the sound you get from the 3b... get a good tech to convert it to a straight horn for you. I’ve done that before and they did it at no cost as long as they got to keep the rotor section... that will be your cheapest option, and, it doesn’t take that long.

I don't mind polishing. It can be fun. Getting around all the corners of the closed wraps can be tedious. If it was a straight horn I wouldn't mind it.

I ended up taking Dean's advice and I'm getting the F attachment removed. Just dropped it off at the shop. That feels like the right decision. I didn't even know that was an option!

excited to play my "new" horn in a few weeks. Thanks for the help/feedback. Always good to have a sounding board.

Of all options this was the worst...IMO

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:42 am Of all options this was the worst...IMO

I totally agree .... I'd rather buy a second but fitting horn than ripping one apart! Complete no go for me.

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:54 am

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:42 am Of all options this was the worst...IMO

I totally agree .... I'd rather buy a second but fitting horn than ripping one apart! Complete no go for me.

Why?

JCBone wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:58 am

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:54 am

I totally agree .... I'd rather buy a second but fitting horn than ripping one apart! Complete no go for me.

Why?

Lot of time, effort, and money to hack apart a functional 3B when there are zillions upon zillions built that way just waiting out there.

Got to agree having it chopped was not the best imho, you could have contacted DJ and just bought a straight 3b bell section.......

The reason to spend money to remove it is "I don't use it that much". Not "it's too heavy" or "I tried a straight 3B and it was better".

I don't get it

Is there something else you don't like about it?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:00 am Lot of time, effort, and money to hack apart a functional 3B when there are zillions upon zillions built that way just waiting out there.

... and if you're obsessive about polishing etc, you're not going to enjoy a new (presumably not silver plated) gooseneck and all the solder marks/unplated spots left behind after removing the F wrap bracing.

Seriously, just buy a 3B (bell or whole) rather than unnecessarily hacking up a perfectly good instrument.

This forum is chock-full of posts on threads where people have lamented over selling a horn and then wishing they had it back. I'll add my voice to that chorus.

I recall an older thread somewhere on this forum where a member made their 3BF convertible. I can't remember whose hardware they ending up using but it turned out well. This way, you keep the versatility of adding the attachment as needed and still have your silver plated bell section. If you don't mind a yellow brass gooseneck/neckpipe, I'm sure there are plenty of semi-trashed 3B's out there to use a a donor.

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:47 am I recall an older thread somewhere on this forum where a member made their 3BF convertible. I can't remember whose hardware they ending up using but it turned out well. This way, you keep the versatility of adding the attachment as needed and still have your silver plated bell section. If you don't mind a yellow brass gooseneck/neckpipe, I'm sure there are plenty of semi-trashed 3B's out there to use a a donor.

I second this.
If I was going to spend the the time and money to cut up an F-attachment, I would definitely try to go convertible.
This sounds like the best option - other that just buying a 3B bell - that would create a high level of flexibility.
(Well, until the part called for a large bore... )
Maybe a 606 could be a donor

There is a nice silver plated 2b in the Instruments Classified by wafeki (I'm surprised nobody has grabbed it yet - it is a nice horn at a good price)... keep the 3bf and add the 2b. That way when you decide to play in the orchestra and the jazz band you'll have them both covered.

jbeatenbough wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:06 am There is a nice silver plated 2b in the Instruments Classified by wafeki (I'm surprised nobody has grabbed it yet - it is a nice horn at a good price)... keep the 3bf and add the 2b. That way when you decide to play in the orchestra and the jazz band you'll have them both covered.

I think either doing this or just getting a straight 3b bell section/second 3b would have been good options. Having a second horn is always nice.

I'll add my voice to chorus, unhelpful though it may be at this stage - I don't think that removing the F section from a 3BF was a great shout, compared to buying a straight 3B bell section. But since it's already with your tech, if you trust him I'd suggest giving him a call and ask if it's possible to make it convertible.

For all that, I picked up an '80s 3BF in perfect playing condition a few months ago for just about $400, so it's definitely possible, with a little eBay lurking and hanging around the classifieds here, to pick up a 3B bell section or full 3B for around that price or better. As others have said, you can always check in with DJ Kennedy for a full menu of used King sections.

Take the valve off and have a straight neckpipe pit on.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:06 am Take the valve off and have a straight neckpipe pit on.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:06 am Take the valve off and have a straight neckpipe pit on.

Right on cue as always!

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:06 am Take the valve off and have a straight neckpipe pit on.

Then, have a thayer valve put onto the gooseneck

Glad to see you still have the 3BFsp, Leif. I've always wondered if it ended up in the right hands, and from the gist of this thread, it did!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:06 am Take the valve off and have a straight neckpipe pit on.

Then, have a thayer valve put onto the gooseneck

I assume you are being sarcastic.

JCBone wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:28 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Then, have a thayer valve put onto the gooseneck

I assume you are being sarcastic.

Yes

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:06 am Take the valve off and have a straight neckpipe pit on.

Then, have a thayer valve put onto the gooseneck

I think the Holton Monster would be a better valve to put on.

Hobart wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:53 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Then, have a thayer valve put onto the gooseneck

I think the Holton Monster would be a better valve to put on.

Yes, the decommissioned land mine!

leafylief wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:26 pm
I ended up taking Dean's advice and I'm getting the F attachment removed. Just dropped it off at the shop. That feels like the right decision. I didn't even know that was an option!

excited to play my "new" horn in a few weeks. Thanks for the help/feedback. Always good to have a sounding board.

I’m glad I could help you with that... I don’t understand the negative feedback you are getting from your decision, and my advice though. You have a horn you like, except for the rotor section that you don’t use. You won’t get what you want out of the horn, so why not convert it to what you want??? I know many people who have done the same thing. As for making it convertible... the whole thing is that you don’t want the rotor... so why spend the extra money for something that you will put in the closet to collect dust.

I think you will be pleased with your “new” horn in a couple of weeks. Congratulations!

If you do take the valve off, ill buy it

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:10 am If you do take the valve off, ill buy it

Great. I offered it to the shop, they didn't want it. I'm sure i'll have some leftover silver plated piping as well. Make me an offer?

Conn100HGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:10 pm Glad to see you still have the 3BFsp, Leif. I've always wondered if it ended up in the right hands, and from the gist of this thread, it did!

Hey! Wow! Great to hear from you. I was thinking about you the other day when i was contemplating selling this. Taking off the rotary valve is the right decision. I do love this horn dearly. I've got an ambitious EDM brass project I'm going to work on this summer.

Like i was saying earlier, I've thought of getting a sterling, but in the meantime, I'll always love my 3BSP.

How the heck are you??

deanmccarty wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:20 pm

leafylief wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:26 pm
I ended up taking Dean's advice and I'm getting the F attachment removed. Just dropped it off at the shop. That feels like the right decision. I didn't even know that was an option!

excited to play my "new" horn in a few weeks. Thanks for the help/feedback. Always good to have a sounding board.

I’m glad I could help you with that... I don’t understand the negative feedback you are getting from your decision, and my advice though. You have a horn you like, except for the rotor section that you don’t use. You won’t get what you want out of the horn, so why not convert it to what you want??? I know many people who have done the same thing. As for making it convertible... the whole thing is that you don’t want the rotor... so why spend the extra money for something that you will put in the closet to collect dust.

I think you will be pleased with your “new” horn in a couple of weeks. Congratulations!

None of the "negative feedback" where bad options or opinions. I had considered all of them: buying a new bell, getting a SP 2B, getting a sterling, etc.

Turns out the conversion is $250. Not free, but cheaper than pretty much any other option.

We went over all the plating, and came up with a great strategy so that there will be no lacquered spots and no lacking silver. One of the pipe soldiers will be removed and replaced with a 2nd brace under the counter weight. the thumb trigger will remain in place and be a nice brace for my thumb (it won't move however) so its piping will remain, And one final spot will have the pipe replaced completely. So no sore eye spots, all silver plating will remain in tact.

So this was the cheapest option with lowest risk to retain a horn I love and make it all the more useful for me.

I do appreciate everyone's two cents. I'll post back with an update. Should be getting the horn back in 10 days or so.

The Job took forever. But it was worth it. Horn sounds better!

If someone wants to buy the F attachment with pipes lemme know.

Hey Lief, could you post a picture of the finished product?

Conn100HGuy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:10 am Hey Lief, could you post a picture of the finished product?

Here you go. So the tech made an error. He put the wrong brace on, on purpose, he said after 3 orders he couldn't find the right one. another tech at another shop did, using the same supplier. And of course it wasn't flush so he just doused it in solder. So it looked like shit, I took it to another shop, got the right brace, but then there was all this solder.

I checked all over the country to find a replater, it was very difficult to find cheaply, so my trusted tech back in Oregon (i'm in new mexico now) just told me how to clean the solder off. It stripped some of the plating, but overall it doesn't bother me too much.

It sounds/plays better than ever though!

leafylief wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:57 am So the tech made an error.

It looks like the gooseneck was installed upside down (curves away from the bell, not toward it as it should be), and the resulting angle via the receiver/bell brace then puts the bell angle way off-center relative to the tuning slide. But if you're happy with it, probably not worth re-doing at this stage.

Yeah, that horn is all out of whack, alignment wise. The centerline of the bell doesn't match the centerline of the top side of the tuning slide, and the slide looks too close to the bell, and yes, it looks like the neck pipe is reversed. I think this is why you had so much feedback against major surgery - there's just so much that can go wrong. You took a $1200 horn and paid money to make it into a badly assembled $700 horn.

The bell throat is quite bent, too. Yeah, it is a bit of a mess, but this is not a huge or expensive job for a more experienced tech. It is a matter of dissembling and assembling correctly.

And doing some straightening of the bell throat!

If you like the horn, keep it. If you are concerned about cosmetics, have a tech (who has experience with these things) re-assemble the horn. It WILL play differently once it is re-assembled, but I’m guessing it will be easier and more enjoyable to play.