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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:10 am
by johntarr
CharlieB wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm ^^^^ All good points.
Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.
Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.
But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.
It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.
My impression is that the trombone was more successful in earlier forms of jazz because of its expressive capabilities. To be able to growl, scream, shout, laugh and cry, a trombone player could reach the listener on an emotional level. As jazz became more complex, it was defined by the instruments on which it is easier to play faster and more intricate patterns. Some modern trombonists have heroically developed technique to almost the level of a saxophone, but it doesn’t really matter to the listener. Trombonists need to develop in a different way, using the instrument’s strengths.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:40 am
by FOSSIL
johntarr wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:10 am
CharlieB wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm ^^^^ All good points.
Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.
Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.
But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.
It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.
My impression is that the trombone was more successful in earlier forms of jazz because of its expressive capabilities. To be able to growl, scream, shout, laugh and cry, a trombone player could reach the listener on an emotional level. As jazz became more complex, it was defined by the instruments on which it is easier to play faster and more intricate patterns. Some modern trombonists have heroically developed technique to almost the level of a saxophone, but it doesn’t really matter to the listener. Trombonists need to develop in a different way, using the instrument’s strengths.
Yes, you are right on the money... as a consumer of jazz improvisation rather than an exponent, I hear so much trombone improvisation that seems designed to impress rather than being about music. Why are many obsessed with competing with sax and trumpet players ? The trombone is a wonderful instrument if it is allowed to have it's own voice.

Chris

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:51 am
by timothy42b
johntarr wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:10 am Some modern trombonists have heroically developed technique to almost the level of a saxophone, but it doesn’t really matter to the listener. Trombonists need to develop in a different way, using the instrument’s strengths.
That's what I think too, but that's probably heavily influenced by not listening to much of the people with that blazing technique. I like the simpler older trad stuff, and that may not be commercially salable now.

The nice thing about playing slower more melodic solos is that the technique required is within reach of any of us.

The bad thing is technique is no longer an excuse for not doing it. :idea:

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:29 pm
by brtnats
Just adding weight:

1: Trombone is a really hard instrument, 2: Improvisation requires technical fluidity that trombonists have to independently acquire, and 3: Improvisation requires opportunities to practice and fail and learn from those failures and models to emulate. See points 1 and 2.


There was a FB thread about JJ a while back, and I asked Sam Burtis a question about JJ’s album prep, because he heard him live. Sam says JJ practiced LOTS of variations on solos so that when he got into the booth, he wouldn’t be wasting time trying out new ideas. But, because JJ is the ideal for so many jazz-solo performers, and because we don’t have as many really famous examples of soloists as sax/trumpet/etc, then we listen to JJ and assume THAT’S what “improvisation” sounds like. The truth is, that’s what improvisation, with a LOT OF PRACTICE, sounds like.

Trombonists have to make a “professional development” plan to learn to improvise, and then they have to find an opportunity to practice it. That’s a high bar.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:14 pm
by harrisonreed
Is the trombone actually hard? I feel like, especially compared to other brass, there is a crazy margin of error built in for hitting notes, and the access to alternate notes and partials "against the grain" makes it more intuitive. On a trumpet or sackbut if you look at the horn the wrong way it plays the wrong note, just out of spite. But I can see that the trombone is difficult to play for kids.

I think it has more to do with the opportunity given for solos, especially to kids. A 12 year old sax player can already be ripping alto sax solos while a 12 year old trombone player is struggling with reaching 7th and doesn't know how to take care of their slide. Some of it is physical difficulty, and some of it is kids just making the instrument harder to play. And then they don't get solos.

None of those difficulties should affect someone in high school ... But the lack of solo experience and stigma that their instrument is "hard" might be a pretty big wall.

My buddy used to say we should just have kids start in the back of the Arbans book and tell them that is the easiest tune they're going to see. :idk:

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:05 am
by imsevimse
I've been studying french horn, trumpet, flugelhorn as a beginner since summer. I've had about half year on the french horn and three months on the trumpet, a couple of weeks on the flugel. If I compare to the trombone those instruments are real easy just to start.

I can play melodies almost out of the box on all those. If you give a trombone go a trumpet player I doubt he will be able to get a descent sound and I doubt he will be able to figure out the slide in just a couple of days. To a trombone player a switch to a valved instrument seems easy. It is easy to a certain level. I mean I can play easy melodies as good on the trumpet, flugelhorn and french horn as I can do them on the trombone, just after some months and I have played the trombone since 1975, even graduated on the trombone at the academy. Of course I touched an euphonium those years but have never really practiced. As you may agree most tromboneplayers find the euphonium easy. The trumpet, flugelhorn and french horn is as easy in many ways. The extreme high register on the trumpet is not for every one, and the low register of the french horn also requires special care, but mainstream skills is easy earned compared to mainstream skills on a trombone. The skill to play a beautiful easy melody for example is much more difficult on the trombone, a lot more high level technical skills must be in order just to synchronise a nice slide move.

I've started to improvise on the flugel and it is very intuitive too. It is easier than on the trombone to navigate.

/Tom

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:17 am
by Pre59
harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:14 pm
Is the trombone actually hard? I feel like, especially compared to other brass, there is a crazy margin of error built in for hitting notes, and the access to alternate notes and partials "against the grain" makes it more intuitive. On a trumpet or sackbut if you look at the horn the wrong way it plays the wrong note, just out of spite. But I can see that the trombone is difficult to play for kids.
The idea of alternate positions, rather than the best position for the situation stops many trombonists from finding "short shift" interesting patterns and phrases beyond the bell. So a Bb in 5th doesn't sound exactly the same as it does in 1st, any more than duplicated notes played across different strings on any string instrument do. It's the context that's important, using the best position for tone or efficiency when playing a phase or pattern.

A much respected bass guitarist once told me that the trick of sight reading is to know where every note is on the instrument, arguably true for improvising on the tbn IMO.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:17 am
by Wilktone
I don't really have too much new to add to what's already been said about the nature of the trombone and improvisation, but like MagnumH wrote earlier, the premise of the question is flawed in some ways.
hyperbolica wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:20 pm Before you take offense, I obviously don't mean ALL trombonists, but if you take 10 trombonists, 10 trumpet players, and 10 sax players, you'll have more guys that can wail on the sax or the trumpet than on the trombone.
Where are we drawing from for these 30 hypothetically musicians? The high school or college up the road? The local scene? From the recordings of the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra? I think we're going to get different results depending on the pool of musicians. In any general pool of musicians it's probably easier to find more saxophonists than trombonists. If you're going to pull 5 saxophonists from a pool of 30 and 4 trombones from a pool of 15 for your band it's going to be easier to get your whole sax section full of strong improvisers.

Now we should also define what it means to "wail." That term (to me) means something different than just improvising an expressive and musical solo, it suggests faster, higher, louder. For obvious reasons, trombonists are going to rely less on those musical elements in their improvisations. We might as well add upright bassists in there and also think about how many bass soloists "wail." Musicians who stick with the trombone or bass tend to be less interested in that sort of playing by nature.

Why does music composed for trumpet quartet suck but trombone quartet music sound good?
And one more thing. Is it really cool to end every other phrase with a descending tritone, or do you have to be Charlie Parker to pull that off?
I'm aware of this happening, but hand't realized it was such a trope. I just pulled out my copy of the Omnibook and it doesn't look like Bird ended too many phrases that way. Is this a regional thing?
And one more more thing. Are great improvisers really mental chord giants, or do they just memorize solos, or do they just piece together a bunch of cool licks in every key imaginable? I mean you can't just rip off a bunch of 1/16th note scales in non-enharmonic chords while following 8 or 12 bar phrases off the top of your head, on command, realistically, can you?
It depends on the improviser, but I think most competent and better improvisers do all of the above to a degree.

Dave

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:32 am
by johntarr
harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:14 pm Is the trombone actually hard? I feel like, especially compared to other brass, there is a crazy margin of error built in for hitting notes, and the access to alternate notes and partials "against the grain" makes it more intuitive. On a trumpet or sackbut if you look at the horn the wrong way it plays the wrong note, just out of spite. But I can see that the trombone is difficult to play for kids.

I think it has more to do with the opportunity given for solos, especially to kids. A 12 year old sax player can already be ripping alto sax solos while a 12 year old trombone player is struggling with reaching 7th and doesn't know how to take care of their slide. Some of it is physical difficulty, and some of it is kids just making the instrument harder to play. And then they don't get solos.

None of those difficulties should affect someone in high school ... But the lack of solo experience and stigma that their instrument is "hard" might be a pretty big wall.

My buddy used to say we should just have kids start in the back of the Arbans book and tell them that is the easiest tune they're going to see. :idk:
For beginners, it’s much easier to press a valve than to find a position. With the valves, it’s binary, either you have the right combination or you don’t. With the slide, just being a 1/4 (and less) of an inch off will be wrong. On top of that, just learning to hold the instrument is a struggle with the balance shifting and managing the weight of the slide, not to mention the arm. With the trumpet, the left (holding) hand doesn’t need to constantly adjust as it does with a trombone.

Fingers take up much more space in the motor cortex than the arm so the amount of control over three fingers, each moving an inch or so between two clearly defined points, will be much easier to learn than moving an arm over (I’m guessing) about thirty inches away from the body’s center with no clear stopping points. Heck, just showing kids how to put the instrument together is much more involved than the trumpet.

By the time the trombone student has mastered rudimentary positions and a few tunes, the trumpet student will be playing much more complex music. Trumpets and saxophones are learning melodies while trombones are playing 1 to 5 to 1 or longer harmony notes.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:24 am
by WilliamLang
is the trombone actually hard? yes

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:25 pm
by Bach5G
I really wonder how hard most trombonists practice improvising.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:15 pm
by ExZacLee
I apologize in advance for this long missive... was about to delete it but i figured what the hell.

TLDR - yeah, trombone is hard, but so is everything else, so just do it. Everyone who does this dealt with the same "oh crap, there's no buttons on this thing!" situation. Go with your strengths. What is that? Sound.
CharlieB wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm ^^^^ All good points.
Trombone is a difficult instrument that presents big improvising challenges.
Very true. All instruments have challenges, but the trombone and upright bass are easily the most challenging of the "common" jazz instruments.
CharlieB wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.
This, I think, is not so true. I've been on plenty of gigs where the reaction you describe came after something I played... and the amazing artistry on display by my trumpet and sax bandmates was greeted with more of a ho-hum attitude. It really depends on the song and the style it's in, and the closer that style gets to New Orleans and its surrounding environs, the more at home something big and beautiful like a trombone is. On a Coltrane composition, I'm rarely going to be in a position to put something out there that can compete with an equally competent saxophonist. I love Trane, I play a bunch of his stuff in my own groups, but I don't play it as well as a tenor player who loves Trane will. Now on a traditional jazz gig? Different story. That's my home. That's the trombone's home. NOLA brass band stuff? No contest. In most of those groups the trambones are stomping. Certain big band tunes can not have any substitute for the trombone solo. IGYUMS? I've heard bands give that tbn solo to a sax player, heard it given to a trumpet player. Never works like the real thing. There are certain styles the trombone is more at home with. If one is trying to find their voice on this instrument and feels lost, they should start there. The syntax between the styles isn't as different as people try to make it out to be. If you learn how to speak well in a style you love, it makes it that much easier to translate your ideas to something more foreign or difficult.

I love bebop and play it every chance i get, but I know what I'm putting out there isn't always going to be as "electrifying" as what the saxophonist may do. That's alright... I get into my JJ vein and milk it for all it's worth, and if I do something particularly memorable, I learn from that. Mostly I learn how hard it is to play Segment at 300...

In Salsa, Timba, and other related styles, the trombone is king. Most of the groups I play in that do these Afro-Caribbean styles, the trombone is the first horn called (and usually the only one if the budget is small.) My stamina used to be pretty amazing because of gigs in these bands. It was constant playing and I usually had more solos than anyone else in the band... it's more akin to the lead tenor book in a big band, just with longer and louder solos. In Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, etc., you'll find the trombone has a higher sense of place, if you will, in the music. I've never had to buy a drink on those gigs.

Before the Covid hit, a good amount of my work was with jazz groups that also bring a lot of soul and gospel into the music. The vocal quality of the trombone combined with the sheer power of the instrument works great in these "neo-soul jazz" groups.
[/quote]
CharlieB wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.
It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.
Well, if all you do is explore the mellow and serene side of the instrument, of course you're not going to excite people in every solo. The role of the trombone in most forms of popular music calls for big and brash just as often, if not more so. Sax and trumpet can be mellow and serene as well... if they do that on a solo when the band is decidedly not serene and mellow, they're not getting any more love than the trombone or anyone else in the band.

JJ didn't play "saxophone lines" in most of his solos - his sound and his sense of swing and rhythm are what gets your attention. Heck, most of his solos are very approachable on the horn. I get all of my trombone students playing JJ solos - there's plenty of variation in difficulty across his body of work. The range is usually more of an issue than the speed of the actual lines, and JJ's range generally doesn't go beyond a high D - most of his stuff doesn't go above high C or Bb. As mentioned earlier, many of JJ's solos are "worked up" - he was a brilliant improvisor but generally knew what he was going to play before he went into the studio (some live stuff I've heard JJ on doesn't even sound like him it's so on another level of genius.) This is more common than a lot of people think. Compare alternate tracks on re-issues. It wasn't just JJ. TLDR: It's okay to work stuff up. This is a language, none of us are making up the words we're typing right now. Also, Swing is defined by the rhythm more-so than the harmonic language. One note in the right place is better than four in the wrong place.

Curtis Fuller plays a lot of stuff that is very approachable. His stuff just lays well, and rarely goes beyond 5th. Dynamically, he's very underrated for the amount of variation in his sound (probably due to the heavy compression on a lot of reissues i've heard). From whisper to shout - he really gets a lot of mileage out his solos, often from a small number of motifs. His "Wee Small Hours" from the Blakey album "Caravan" is the greatest late-night-feelin-sorry-for-yourself song I've ever heard. TLDR: Dynamics and sound are more important than blazing technique.

Rosolino - I can't do Roz, don't even ask me how. I've had one student who could. The approach is more similar to the old school approach (more arpeggiated vs. JJ's linear conception) but using modern harmonic language. His abilities were and still are beyond me (and most trombone players). Occasionally I'll hear him play something I like and know I can play so I'll work it up but generally I just listen to him solely for enjoyment. I have no problem admitting when I'm licked. Generally, if my beginners are into Roz, we work on some other stuff for a while so we can (me included) develop the necessary technique. I never could do lip slurs very well, and doing Roz well requires having those down, really articulate, with excellent time at all tempos. I don't know how many times I've stopped the CD while listening to Roz with a student to exclaim "I have no idea how he is doing that and swinging it so hard, that is so hard to do!" And then I'll hear someone do it and I'm just like "*?*" TLDR: Some people have technical powers you may never develop, but working towards them makes you better. I still can't play his stuff, but my lip slurs have improved tremendously from trying.

Fontana - I used to be able to do him okay-ish, I had a natural doodle tongue I didn't have to work on as much as most people, but this style does not keep well. If you lay off, you lose it. A lot of attention is paid to the fretting and what not by most students, but it's the accurate slide technique at speed (practice them modes and sequences!) that really prepares you for this guy. Not many of his solos I've heard that are "approachable" for beginners, but there is a lot of his stuff that lays easy on the horn if you can handle the speed and the doodle tongue. Other players with similar-ish approaches to the horn (Bob McChesney, Conrad Herwig, Marshall Gilkes for example) have similar technical challenges in their work. Often these are the guys I hear being referred to when someone talks about the difficulty of playing jazz on trombone. Yeah, this approach is incredibly difficult, but it's not impossible. It can all be broken down into patterns to practice (a lot). I took a lesson with Marshall Gilkes about 11 or 12 years ago and he told me a couple of little things that made a huge difference - one of those things (try saying "tuttle" instead of "doo-dle") really helped clarify things in certain registers where my clarity was breaking down. TLDR: Get a lesson with someone you look up to. I do this as often as I can afford the time and money to do it.

Back to the JJ - strain of playing, Slide Hampton is a bit more difficult than JJ and Curtis (for me) but he was my first template for the approach I take to playing salsa. Slide's big sound is the template that much of what I'd call the "modern NYC trombone sound" is based on. I hear his influence (and JJ's of course) being the most common amongst Jazz and Afro-Caribbean musicians coming out of that thing. It's not the only one, of course, NYC gives you a pretty broad sample of aesthetic now-a-days, even in the time of Covid. TLDR: What's your "sound"? A great sound can transcend stylistic concerns. Communicate your truth! Who do you love? What do you love? Play that!

Willie Colon and Jimmy Bosch both have exciting approaches to playing the trombone that translate really well to jazz and most forms of popular music (I prefer Sam's term, Pan-American vernacular music, and use that in my coursework.) Both are known for their work in the Salsa Dura (hard salsa) style - a style that is as much a part of jazz as anything from New Orleans. TLDR: There are no rules against bringing something different to the table as long as you respect the music. So many of the jazz musicians I worship either had Caribbean roots or have actual experience playing other styles of music in addition to jazz.

Teagarden? That stuff's generally quite a bit harder (for some, including me) although there are plenty of his solos that are easy and approachable. Teagarden was all melody. TLDR: Melody was, is, and always will be the primary consideration.

Dorsey? Range makes Dorsey difficult, but most of his songs are very approachable and provide extremely valuable melodic content. In my opinion, knowing at least some Dorsey is absolutely necessary to understanding JJ and his disciples. (And Urbie - jeez.) I remember one of my teachers telling me how huge Dorsey's sound was, how huge JJ's sound was - they weren't just smooth and pristine, they were big and scaled up too. I never could get in the ballpark of that Dorsey sound until I realized I'd been trying to make it too small, too quiet, and that there was a lot more volume there than I thought. TLDR: Sound, sound, sound, sound SOUND!

There used to be a radio station around here that played a lot of old big band stuff from the 30s and 40s. I had never realized how much popular big band literature was out there that featured the trombone so prominently that wasn't Dorsey. TLDR: People have always liked the trombone, they still do. Sometimes context matters...

There are a multitude of approaches to playing the trombone that are successful in improvised music, and not all of them are as difficult as bebop or modern up-tempo straight ahead jazz. If one really wants to be able to rip off blazing flights of fancy at q=350, go for it! Don't feel bad about starting a little slower at first, though. TLDR: Go practice. You'll never be able to hang at some ridiculous tempo on some ridiculous maze of chord changes if you aren't practicing something so much easier, so much slower, right now.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:00 pm
by SFA
GREAT POST ExZacLee.

THANK YOU.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:03 am
by FOSSIL
SFA wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:00 pm GREAT POST ExZacLee.

THANK YOU.
I'll second that. ..just read it all twice...SOOO insightful
Thanks

Chris

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:16 am
by imsevimse
FOSSIL wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:03 am
SFA wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:00 pm GREAT POST ExZacLee.

THANK YOU.
I'll second that. ..just read it all twice...SOOO insightful
Thanks

Chris
Yes, that was happy reading. I know a guy who can do some Rosolini licks. That's a challenge.

/Tom

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:14 am
by ExZacLee
Love you guys.

All of ya'!

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:54 am
by CalgaryTbone
Great post!

About Urbie - I picked up an old copy of "21 Trombones" on vinyl over the holidays. That was a record my Dad had that we listened to together, and inspired me as a high school trombonist getting serious about the horn. I listened to it last night - Oh my God! Every note Urbie plays is just SO RIGHT! His solos and just the way he plays the tune makes you feel like there's no other version in the world. Even the stuff that sounds like musak is so well-played that you have to get into it. His playing exudes musicality and style - can't help but think that is the secret to a great solo (improv or otherwise). RIP Urbie!

Jim Scott

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:58 am
by Posaunus
CalgaryTbone wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:54 am Great post!

About Urbie - I picked up an old copy of "21 Trombones" on vinyl over the holidays. That was a record my Dad had that we listened to together, and inspired me as a high school trombonist getting serious about the horn. I listened to it last night - Oh my God! Every note Urbie plays is just SO RIGHT! His solos and just the way he plays the tune makes you feel like there's no other version in the world. Even the stuff that sounds like musak is so well-played that you have to get into it. His playing exudes musicality and style - can't help but think that is the secret to a great solo (improv or otherwise). RIP Urbie!

Jim Scott
:good:
This was the record (LP, of course) that, decades ago, really got me excited about the trombone and how wonderful it could sound. I now have it on CD, and still listen.

Unfortunately, I still don't sound like Urbie. :weep:

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:28 am
by CalgaryTbone
Nobody sounds like Urbie!

I don't want to go too off topic, but there's a great story that Bill Watrous told when he was a guest artist here several years ago.

A trombonist was playing for a weekend show in the Catskills during the summer and the solo artist featured that weekend had just done his show elsewhere - Urbie had been the lead trombonist there. He asked the Catskills guy to take a solo up an octave like Urbie had done. That would have been way in the stratosphere so the next time through, the trombone player played it as written again. The artist said "I'd like you to play it like Urbie". The trombonist replied "if I could play like Urbie, I wouldn't be working here!"

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:30 pm
by Shumanbean
I tried to play for living when I was much younger, and it usually called for improvisation: Dixie, Traditional Jazz, R&B, and so on. Before I quit playing in 1990, I found that my playing - considered pretty good - was repetitious and boring. Far too many blue notes. I didn't have a clue about harmony. I could play, and I had ideas, but I didn't know how to apply them.

When I resumed playing last year, I began spending time on diatonic scales and arpeggios, Pentatonic scales, and trying to understand the working relationship between those scales and the chords. There's a lot to know, and I'm no spring chicken, but I've found that just having familiarity the scales and arpeggios (including inversions) has really helped.

I also think it's good to listen to other instruments (with the idea of transposing) than just bone players. A lot of good, accessible solos are played by trumpets, pianists. saxes. Years ago, a friend told me I should listen to Chet Baker to get going on improvising. He was right, but I didn't, because he wasn't a bone player.

Technical facility, faithful practice, knowledge of scales, triads, and at least a fundamental understanding of harmony. That and really listen a lot, and play every chance you get, and quit worrying about how you sound compared to other axes.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:30 am
by Windmill
Interesting thing, that I've also noticed while ago :)

I personaly came to the conclusion that trombone is still kinda stuck in an old-fashioned vibe, and a few players struggle to get it out of there. I just need to stumble into a jam sessions where a few trombonists are, and 90% of the time, each of them takes a real pride to play LOUD, try to play fast (massive fail), and high (very, very musical), use LOADS of effects such as slide vibrato, glissandi, flutter tonguing, etc... And i think to myself... God, is that what listeners expect from trombone ? Answer is.... yes ! The role and place of this instrument in jazz history leads to this point today.

I was fortunate enough to take lessons with other instrument players, such as violin, saxophone, trumpet, piano, who teached me so many things about triads, intervals, tonal centers and other material to improve my solo language. I transcribed a hell load of Michael Brecker's solo and worked out the concepts i like in his playing. And i'd figure out that with a bit of interest and practicing, it's perfectly doable. So i don't think the problem comes from the instrument's technologic aptitude or non-aptitude, but more from the mindframe of the trombonist himself. If we keep thinking that playing fast is hard, we will never give it a chance... On the other side, so many guitar, saxophone, trumpet, piano players think that their instrument allows them to play fast easily technique wise... But how many of them are really able to phrase beautifully and groove all the way ? A few !! I do think it's equally hard to phrase good on any other instrument or on trombone, really :)

As Schumanbean said, the best thing to do is to nourish our language from other instruments than trombone, and dare to step out of the classic "trombone sound" that everybody sounds to be accustomed to.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:16 pm
by PaulTdot
I think that these issues come down to two major factors:

1. How difficult more "modern" vocabulary is on a trombone.

In more traditional and old-fashioned styles of music, improvising trombonists are common and effective musicians. However, more modern vocabulary, faster tempos, more intervallic movement, and the need to (for most players) to tongue every note adds a lot of challenges.

I've been blown away by how you can ask a beginner saxophone player or trumpet player to tongue every second note, and suddenly they have a very convincing and swinging articulation, pretty much on the spot. Trombone players, even virtuosos, often still struggle with getting a smooth but rhythmic articulation happening.

2. How much time trombonists devote to improvisation.

I work with a colleague who is a saxophonist. We teach together a lot, and so we often compare notes. When my colleague picks up his saxophone, every day, about 90-95% of his practice time is spent working on improvisation.

And, as Doug says, he doesn't really need to rest as much, and can practice more or longer.

Can you imagine how much more fluent you would be if 90% of your practice time was spent working on improvisation?

In addition, of course, there are other challenges:

3. The lack of good examples, representation, a target to aim for. Trombone players don't hear a recording of Charlie Parker or Coltrane or Michael Brecker the first day they pick up the instrument. No one tells us "ok, you gotta play like this when you get good". The expectations are different. That affects people.

4. Acoustical issues. It's hard to project or to play convincing melodies in the "easy" registers of the trombone. As a beginner trumpet player, you can play fairly convincing solos without developing any upper register, and be heard over a rhythm section. As a trombonist, playing a convincing solo that will actually be heard often requires us to play louder or higher, or with a different sound quality. For instance, if you are playing a solo over big band background figures, chances anything you play below middle C or so is unlikely to ever be heard by anyone. That adds challenge to the whole process. (A lot of improvising trombonists sound dramatically better when playing unaccompanied or with a smaller, quieter band.)

A great teacher of mine once told me that half the reason some of the "greats" sound as good as they do on their albums is because they know to hire drummers who can play with enough sensitivity not to bury the trombone player with volume or acoustic interference. (A similar thing goes for piano players who comp in the same range as your improvisation.)

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:05 am
by SaigonSlide
I found myself shaking my head on a lot of this thread.

First of all, being able to improvise has very little to do with what instrument one decides to express themselves through. It has everything to do with how you are able to hear ideas in your head and then to translate them via whatever you play.

What you hear will be an amalgamation of everything you’ve heard, as was mentioned above already. It takes a long time, and hours upon hours of listening, digesting, and playing. If you think you will learn how to improvise by just waiting for a trombone solo in jazz band and using that as your time to practice, you’re missing the point.

The second part, of course, requires some technique. That’s the harder part for us as the trombone is difficult, and also demands a certain level of muscular endurance to play even basic things. We need to actually create the notes. We can’t push buttons, pluck strings, or press keys. It’s muscle on metal all the time. And if we get out of shape we can’t even play much of anything while our sax player friend can play 12 choruses of any tune any time they want (unfortunately).

For me, I’ve become a better improviser as I’ve gotten older. Mostly because I’ve just had more time to listen and to play more music.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:19 am
by Pre59
PaulTdot wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:16 pm

I work with a colleague who is a saxophonist. We teach together a lot, and so we often compare notes. When my colleague picks up his saxophone, every day, about 90-95% of his practice time is spent working on improvisation.

And there you have it. Trombone development material is often as far away from the harmonic world of jazz as you can get.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:46 am
by ArbanRubank
I believe most of us have a warped concept of what a good trombone improv ought to sound like. I think most of us approach it with a concept somewhere between Bill and Gordon and we end up sounding like The Kid on his very, very worst day.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:39 am
by VJOFan
I find a lot of improvisation terrible to listen to. On any instrument. Players seem to be trying to play stuff that other studied players will be impressed by or appreciate. (Watch as I work my way out of the key and then play this exotic scale!) Players just making music seems to be rare.

I was first introduced to Rita Payes on these pages and have followed her ever since. Her latest video drop, I think, shows a bunch of musicians just playing to make beautiful affecting sounds. There is only a little trombone in this track but the entire thing is very fun. I wish more jazz was just players trying to make beautiful, entertaining sounds.


Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:49 am
by Doug Elliott
Rita is really great, and some of the videos are of her whole family. Growing up in that environment certainly helps.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:54 am
by ArbanRubank
I personally believe we would all do well simply to play like Diana Krall sings.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:00 am
by Elow
.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:14 pm
by PaulTdot
I also enjoy her playing a great deal. Very nice, melodic approach. I've used her as an example for students sometimes. It's clear that her approach to improvising is quite polished and natural, unlike the stereotypical trombonist that is being considered in this thread: I would guess she's been quite unafraid to experiment with improvisation since a young age, and developed good instincts as well as techniques, in order to be able to play freely and organically.

And it doesn't hurt to have an example of an excellent, young, female, upstream player to point to. (Shannon Barnett is another such example, so we're getting spoiled here!)

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:16 pm
by baileyman
Great guitar.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:55 pm
by Doug Elliott
Yeah, Rita's mother is a really good jazz guitar player.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:21 am
by brtnats
PaulTdot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:14 pm I also enjoy her playing a great deal. Very nice, melodic approach. I've used her as an example for students sometimes. It's clear that her approach to improvising is quite polished and natural, unlike the stereotypical trombonist that is being considered in this thread: I would guess she's been quite unafraid to experiment with improvisation since a young age, and developed good instincts as well as techniques, in order to be able to play freely and organically.

And it doesn't hurt to have an example of an excellent, young, female, upstream player to point to. (Shannon Barnett is another such example, so we're getting spoiled here!)
She’s actually a product of top-notch music education in lower and secondary schools plus social support for growing musicians. My guess would be she’s lived with it so long it appears to be second nature.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:43 pm
by bigbandbone
I have to be honest. I have not read all the responses in this thread. But the question itself bothers me!
If you want to be good at something - practice, practice, practice.
And don't take something on stage until it's solid, 100%.

My early improv solos were very simple. Just minor variations on the melody.

As I practiced more, they became more interesting.

But I NEVER tried something in performance that wasn't solid. And very rarely missed the changes.

Practice, practice, practice!

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:27 am
by Pre59
brtnats wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:21 am
PaulTdot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:14 pm I also enjoy her playing a great deal. Very nice, melodic approach. I've used her as an example for students sometimes. It's clear that her approach to improvising is quite polished and natural, unlike the stereotypical trombonist that is being considered in this thread: I would guess she's been quite unafraid to experiment with improvisation since a young age, and developed good instincts as well as techniques, in order to be able to play freely and organically.

And it doesn't hurt to have an example of an excellent, young, female, upstream player to point to. (Shannon Barnett is another such example, so we're getting spoiled here!)
She’s actually a product of top-notch music education in lower and secondary schools plus social support for growing musicians. My guess would be she’s lived with it so long it appears to be second nature.
Here's a quote from an interview with Joan Chamorro of the Sant Andreu Jazz Band about some of his his teaching methods.

JC: I have many moments in my life that indicate to me which paths are more correct or not, so that, finally, the music ends up becoming something beautiful and to learn and give the best of us. I have been creating work systems, including musical language books, with new ways of teaching the rudiments of music and also more advanced things. It is based on the voice, as the main instrument. I rely on singing and listening to much music from the beginning, from the first day. And, above all, the first years, it is very important, so that young musicians get caught with what. I propose to them, to play many beautiful melodies, that they can sing and memorize. The first two years I do not care at all that they do not read or write music. I just want them to sing and play from memory. That they do not need sheet music (the coding of the language will come gradually)

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:31 am
by ArbanRubank
bigbandbone wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:43 pm I have to be honest. I have not read all the responses in this thread. But the question itself bothers me!
If you want to be good at something - practice, practice, practice.
And don't take something on stage until it's solid, 100%.

My early improv solos were very simple. Just minor variations on the melody.

As I practiced more, they became more interesting.

But I NEVER tried something in performance that wasn't solid. And very rarely missed the changes.

Practice, practice, practice!
Seems like a very professional approach!

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:06 am
by brtnats
bigbandbone wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:43 pm I have to be honest. I have not read all the responses in this thread. But the question itself bothers me!
If you want to be good at something - practice, practice, practice.
And don't take something on stage until it's solid, 100%.

My early improv solos were very simple. Just minor variations on the melody.

As I practiced more, they became more interesting.

But I NEVER tried something in performance that wasn't solid. And very rarely missed the changes.

Practice, practice, practice!
There is so much wisdom in this post. We call it “improvising,” which gives the impression we’re pulling it out of nothingness. The truth is that it takes *so much* dedicated practice of scales, chords, tunes, and techniques to be able to pull those notes out at the appropriate time. If JJ Johnson prepared material, there’s no reason everyone shouldn’t.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:45 am
by Reedman1
I think ExZacLee makes most of the good points. From the point of view of playing, the trombone is really no harder to solo well on than any other instrument - I have played a bunch of them, and know whereof I speak. The thing is to develop ear and technique and a concept that permits you to be musical, expressive and entertaining. From the point of getting opportunities to solo, look for them and ask for them, and then do a good job. You think it’s harder to run scales or resolve up half steps? Then work on it, and do something else. What about rhythmic solos? What about lyricism? I’ve heard plenty of trumpets, saxes, pianos, guitars, etc with note-diarrhea, and I’m not impressed. Give me Higgy. Give me Pres. Give me Chet and Gerry. Listen to one brief solo by Wycliffe or Gilkes and tell me trombonists have to suck at solos. If you suck at soloing, get better at it. It’s not impossible.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:46 am
by PaulTdot
Spend a lot of time with a colleague who's a great improviser. Practice together; see what they work on, do it as well. How much time do they spend? What do they do, for how long, what do they focus on? What do they listen to?

If you don't see results... well, you will.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:51 am
by lowcatjb
They don't suck. It's just that most people judge the playing by judging the technique. It's understandable, because technique is quantifiable and therefore easy to judge. Saxophone players can get more notes in, so obviously they must be the better musicians, right?

This is really the problem. Music, being art, is inherently subjective. Who's a better painter, Picasso or Vermeer? Your answer to that question is based on your knowledge of art and your personal preferences.

Who plays a "better" solo? JJ Johnson, or a 22-year-old alto saxophone player who just graduated from college and can play 6,000 16th notes in a minute and a half? If more equals better, then: Sorry, JJ!

But go and listen to some of JJ's solos. Listen to how much he gets out of a few notes. He's creative, unique and plays memorable phrases.

The college student plays 6,000 16th notes in a minute and a half, but how much of it is recycled patterns and licks? How much of it could you hear out of most other recent graduates? How much of it are you actually going to remember? How many phrases got stuck in your ear like the ones JJ might have played?

Technique is only a means to an end. It's an important means but it is not the end in and of itself.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:02 pm
by Bach5G
It wouldn’t hurt to get a couple of lessons with someone (a trombone player) who doesn’t suck.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:38 pm
by bachtothefuture
I agree, and I think it's because it's the way we are "raised." Improvising is taking a melody and playing around with it and making it your own. From beginning band, trombones rarely play any melody. Most band parts are rhythmic and chordal background support lines with maybe 8 bars of melody in any given pice. Orchestra - ha...forget it. We are trained to support and accompany, not play lead or the melody, so we trombone players don't really get to develpo a melodic ear, and melodies don't get ingrained into brain and muscle memory. Yeah, we can all the orchestral exerpts, but ask a bone player to play a melody...uh///how about star wars?

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:01 pm
by imsevimse
Before Christian Lindberg came to the scene it was accepted to be told you play an instrument that was NOT a melody-instrument. I remember my classmates said that when I studied trombone as a 16 year old at a music program. Later after graduating from the Royal college of Music in Stockholm as a 25-year old and got a job as a music teacher on all brass at a public music school one of my colleagues, a piano teacher told me the trombone was not a melody instrument. I remember I played him a record with Branimiir Slokar on alto to prove a point. He could agree the instrument could play melodies after that but rather reluctant. This was about when Chistian started his career. After he got known here in the 80-ies nobody ever have said the instrument could not be used as an effective solo instrument.

I know this thread is about improvising and that's not quite the same. What Christian did was to play the trombone in a way we forget it is a trombone. It is just lovely music and everything he touches becomes music
He can turn the worst concert to a masterpiece. That's what we have to do when we improvise too.

/Tom

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:04 pm
by Geordie
lowcatjb wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:51 am
Snip
Technique is only a means to an end. It's an important means but it is not the end in and of itself.
Snip
👆👆 This 👆👆

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:04 pm
by Pre59
imsevimse wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:01 pm Before Christian Lindberg came to the scene it was accepted to be told you play an instrument that was NOT a melody-instrument. I remember my classmates said that when I studied trombone as a 16 year old at a music program. Later after graduating from the Royal college of Music in Stockholm as a 25-year old and got a job as a music teacher on all brass at a public music school one of my colleagues, a piano teacher told me the trombone was not a melody instrument.
/Tom
This is so far from my experience in the UK as a young man. Melodic trombone playing was all over the BBC, you could hear beautiful playing almost every day. My teachers would tell me that the trombone is very close to the human voice, and to think about singing it, not just playing it.
I had a regular Sunday lunchtime duo gig for several years, just tbn and gtr. I had that gig because the local sax players couldn't or wouldn't play melodies by ear, even less play requests. I play leads in a four piece band because again, the reed player can't or won't.
I don't buy it that the tbn isn't or can't be a jazz or melody instrument, but it really helps to know where every note is in the "bad lands" beyond the bell..

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:45 pm
by Bach5G
bachtothefuture wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:38 pm I agree, and I think it's because it's the way we are "raised." Improvising is taking a melody and playing around with it and making it your own. From beginning band, trombones rarely play any melody. Most band parts are rhythmic and chordal background support lines with maybe 8 bars of melody in any given pice. Orchestra - ha...forget it. We are trained to support and accompany, not play lead or the melody, so we trombone players don't really get to develpo a melodic ear, and melodies don't get ingrained into brain and muscle memory. Yeah, we can all the orchestral exerpts, but ask a bone player to play a melody...uh///how about star wars?
Tommy Dorsey

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:49 pm
by imsevimse
Pre59 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:04 pm
imsevimse wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:01 pm Before Christian Lindberg came to the scene it was accepted to be told you play an instrument that was NOT a melody-instrument. I remember my classmates said that when I studied trombone as a 16 year old at a music program. Later after graduating from the Royal college of Music in Stockholm as a 25-year old and got a job as a music teacher on all brass at a public music school one of my colleagues, a piano teacher told me the trombone was not a melody instrument.
/Tom
This is so far from my experience in the UK as a young man. Melodic trombone playing was all over the BBC, you could hear beautiful playing almost every day. My teachers would tell me that the trombone is very close to the human voice, and to think about singing it, not just playing it.
I had a regular Sunday lunchtime duo gig for several years, just tbn and gtr. I had that gig because the local sax players couldn't or wouldn't play melodies by ear, even less play requests. I play leads in a four piece band because again, the reed player can't or won't.
I don't buy it that the tbn isn't or can't be a jazz or melody instrument, but it really helps to know where every note is in the "bad lands" beyond the bell..
I remember Denis Vick came over to Stockholm and did some masterclasses in the 80-ies. He was the God. The guys in the Philip Jones Brass Ensamble were my heroes. We had players who cold play good here but the instrument was not exposed as a solo instrument and that was the real problem, even teachers had no idea what a trombone could do. In commercial music there were of course soloists but to hear trombone concerts live was very rare before Christian became known, then he played a lot here but very soon he started to tour the world instead. A good thing is I never hear someone say a trombone is not a solo instrument today. That's a big change. In UK you have a long tradition of brass brand and I think that is an important difference. We have never had much of that. In Sweden we sing in choires instead.

Lately there is another problem and that is all windinstrument has a crisis. Not many choose to play a windinstrument today. I predict there will be fewer tromboneplayers in a couple of decades and the ones who play then might be worse than the ones that play today because there will be less of the competition. The ones in the future might suck even more at improvisation than the ones that do it today.

/Tom

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:49 pm
by Doug Elliott
Maybe not many choose to play, but the ones who do are far more dedicated and have much more numerous good influences.

But the way beginners are taught hasn't changed much, if at all. The great examples listed aren't necessarily heard by kids who listen to entirely different music. Or "music."

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:26 pm
by Pre59
I think that the trombones melodic role has been usurped in part by the fluglelhorn. Being able to play a melody well in the higher register is usually the mark of an accomplished trombonist, but an average trumpeter can play the same piece on a fluglehorn sounding in the same register with ease.
With the increase in the bore and mouhpiece sizes, playing extended higher pitched leads and solos has become more difficult and so even less likely.

Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:05 pm
by Grah
I do not agree that Trombonists Suck At Improvising. The reason I took up the trombone is because,when I used to go around all the London and suburban jazz clubs in my youth, it was the trombone players' improvisations that mainly interested me: Roy Williams, Chris Barber, George Chisholm, etc., etc.

If you want to play good jazz, however, it is important that you study the improvisation techniques. I had a great teacher in Owen Bryce, a trumpet player who was one of the instigators of Traditional Jazz in Great Britain:
https://www.greenwich.co.uk/blogs/mary- ... wen-bryce/

Get yourselves some good jazz theory books and find some good mates to play with. I would also recommend that you get the Band-in-a-Box software, so that you can practice at home with a good rhythm section and listen to their jazz improvisers.

And read my signature note.😎