TromboneChat

Hello all

My dear King Tempo is dying through the winter... Leadpipe broke in half from rust and got stuck in the slide, the neckpipe i repaired twice, dents all over the place... Had a good past 10 years in my hands !

I was looking for a Concert 3B when somebody proposed me perfect silver-plated Besson 35 "london" for a super cheap price, so i bought it, just to try. I'm still waiting to receive it. Does anybody know anything about this horn ? Couldn't find ANY information on the web. I can just see stuff about the Westminster Bessons, or Sovereign, etc... Nothing at all about the 35. Anybody ?

Thanks in advance, have a good sunday

Welcome to the British state of total confusion!!!

After Besson and Boosey & Hawkes combined in 1948, they made o whole range of instruments and the brass lines were in 3 different levels. The student models were Besson Westminster and the B&H models were Regents. These were identical and parts were interchangeable. The intermediate ranges were Besson Stratford/B&H Emperor and the Pro models were Besson New Standard for valved instruments and Academy for the trombones. The B&H pro models were Imperial.
There were other models such as the 10-10/8-10/2-20 Bessons which were made for the US market and also there were variations on the student range, all identical but with models such as 35, 78, Oxford, Cambridge, Varsity, Edgeware.

Your Besson 35 is a small bore tenor with a bore of 0.487in diameter and probably a bell of around 7.25in, think Conn 4H/King 2B. However it was built much stronger than either of those and would make an idea horn for marching band(if you forget to turn you could go right through the wall with little damage to the instrument!!)

The plating may be bright silver plate or it may be frosted silver depending on age. Also, check that the serial number, found on the underside of the bell near the top of the first bell brace, could have a 6 digit number, with or without HP or LP. If it has HP it is an old High Pitched instrument, used in Britain until the mid 1960s. It should have had the tuning slide lengthened to compensate and bring it in tune with modern pitch.

Good luck and if you need any more info, don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers

Stewbones43

Thanks a lot Now that's some info...

I already assumed that it could be close to the 10-10 or 8-10, because they look alike pretty much, except of the slide crook and the spit valve. I plan to fit the spitvalve of my dead Tempo on it, as the crook is a perfectly identical design.

I'll check for the serial number and pull the tuning slide if needed, thanks for the trick And regarding bore and bell diameter, it should match with my actual small-bell Tempo, which is good.
I'll come back when i receive the horn ! Thanks again.

The 10-10 is about 0.522 bore. Not sure about the 8-10. I had an 10-10 in the late 60s in high school and Salvation Army bands--was a wonderful horn. I miss it!

walldaja wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:38 am The 10-10 is about 0.522 bore. Not sure about the 8-10. I had an 10-10 in the late 60s in high school and Salvation Army bands--was a wonderful horn. I miss it!

Yes Dave you are right about the 10-10; well almost, the bore is actually 0.523in, but what's 0.001in between friends
The 8-10 is 0.487in bore and is an intermediate model. The 2-20 is the same as the 35.

your memories of the10-10 are right, it is a wonderful horn. I use mine a lot-it has had an F section added by Paxman, the French Horn maker. I would say that the standard 10-10 is similar to a Bach 36 or a Conn 78H.

I did my Salvation Army Band playing on a Besson Academy 402 and a Salvation Army Festival model(1959-1968)

Cheers

Stewbones43

The 2-20 and the 35 do look different though... Braces have pointed shaped flanges on the 2-20, they are rounded on the 35. The waterkey is also modern on the 2-20 and the slide crook has a bumper, which is absent on the 35.

I suspect the differences are due to cost-cutting measures to make the cheap student line even cheaper. The basic trombones were the same- same bell, same slide sections, same mouthpiece supplied. The rounded flanges may have been cheaper to produce and easier to fit.

Cheers


Stewbones43

Could be that the 35 and 78 are the older name of the 8-10 and 10-10 then ? They definitely look alike and have the same specs

The 35 is a student model, almost indestructible as Stewbones said you can march through a wall without fear of damage and .487 small bore

The 10-10 etc where the pro line (to use modern parlance) but as with all horns it's how it plays, so we await your review with interest

Don't mean to sidetrack the OP's topic, but I have a silver plated 10-10 that has lost enough plating off of the inner slides to make it close to unusable. Any ideas on where to source a slide or another maker's slide that would fit and be a good match?? Thanks

You could replace the inners with .525 such as Bach 36, probably need to replace the outers too

I wonder if the .487 bore feels different than the .491 of the Tempo... Not quite a big step ! Should come in the next days

So, i got the panzer today

It looks great and is, as you said, built heavy. Please great with a warmer sound than my old King, but the inners are totally worn out, not a single track of chrome left... I guess i'll have to replace them before going into further exploration of this horn !

The serial number is L.P. 333931, si it's a common pitched one i guess ?



Bell is same size as the Tempo and it's so far a nice little horn

Here a small audio test, so you can hear how it sounds - really round for such a small bore, amazing I'm struggling like a idiot with the slide and the high register which is a bit more tricker compared to the King... Got to practice to get used to this one now

Windmill wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:28 am Here a small audio test, so you can hear how it sounds - really round for such a small bore, amazing I'm struggling like a idiot with the slide and the high register which is a bit more tricker compared to the King... Got to practice to get used to this one now

Lovely playing, Windmill.

Wow ! that was good...never heard a Besson sound like that ! bravo

Chris

Windmill wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:28 am Here a small audio test, so you can hear how it sounds - really round for such a small bore, amazing I'm struggling like a idiot with the slide and the high register which is a bit more tricker compared to the King... Got to practice to get used to this one now

You sound nice! Love the intimate sound and your recording style too.

Thank you !
Today i fitted the crook protection and the spitvalve of the Tempo on the slide. The old valve was ruined and not so practical at all, and i prefer to have a bumper on the crook !

Sounds great! Don’t know if it’s you or the Besson, but lovely playing......

Thanks
Can't wait to receive the new inners and change them... Gonna have a quick look at the leadpipe too. Anybody experienced a bit around Besson leadpipes ?

Windmill wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:00 pm Thanks
Can't wait to receive the new inners and change them... Gonna have a quick look at the leadpipe too. Anybody experienced a bit around Besson leadpipes ?

I wish you luck getting the new inners. I tried here in the UK some years ago but there were none to be found. The only thing that you might get in the US are Conn 14H or Bach LT6 inners. If you have any success, please report back.

Love the clip you posted, beautiful playing and super sound. What mouthpiece do you use to get that sound?

Cheers

Stewbones43

I'll see with my tech if we can fit 0.491 inners instead. The play between the inners and outers is pretty big, it should be OK to match with the original outers.



No idea what this is... No engraving or marking of any sort on it, found it in a fleemarket. Feels quite like a 12C with a slightly larger backbore and an extremely flat rim. I just stick to it since years now

So i realized today that with the tuning slide all the way in, the horn is still "low-pitched"... I'm gonna cut off a bit of the tuning slide to bring it in tune again.

What used to be called "Low Pitch" was actually at A=435 Hz, which is a bit flat compared to modern pitch (A=440 Hz). Shortening the tuning slide should do what you want.

Incidentally, I have a mouthpiece that looks just like the one you show except it is engraved "19". The shank is actually smaller than a modern Tenor shank, but it fits pre-1920 trombones quite nicely. I actually epoxy coated the rim to prevent brass rash, but the stuff I used is not available universally. It's a photoimagaeble solder mask. Went on very thin (25 micron).

So, here's a bit of what i did this evening...

Took the bell section apart and shortened the neckpie, as well as the bell flare, where the tuning slide receiver fits in.



Then soldered everybody together again, and re-aligned the tuning slide. I also made sure that there is no gap anymore bewteen the pipes fitting in a joint, like it was before, by adjusting their lenght quite precisely.



And now comes my favourite part of the job, scratching and polishing the soldered joints :p



After a good wash, it's like new again, and more important : it plays in tune !





BGuttman, my mouthpiece was fitting an old valve trombone from the 30's, and is moderner than pre-20's mouthpieces i would say... The shank is a regular small shank and the design closes up to nowadays pieces, rather than the 1900's ones.

I thought that the bell section looked long.

That mouthpiece looks unsafe to play, no matter how good it sounds.

My doctor says there's no worry to have with raw brass contact... And I never experienced any problems with it so far.

Windmill wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:12 pm My doctor says there's no worry to have with raw brass contact... And I never experienced any problems with it so far.

There are some who will experience a rash from playing on a raw brass mouthpiece (I am not one of them).

If you suck on the mouthpiece for very long periods of time you might extract some lead from it, but it's going to take a lot.

Players in the 17th Century played raw brass mouthpieces apparently without that much problem.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:39 pm There are some who will experience a rash from playing on a raw brass mouthpiece (I am not one of them).

If you suck on the mouthpiece for very long periods of time you might extract some lead from it, but it's going to take a lot.

Players in the 17th Century played raw brass mouthpieces apparently without that much problem.

I feel you're taking this serious subject much too lightly.

You're totally neglecting the undisputable evidence that those guys playing those mouthpieces
subsequently ALL died - a striking resemblance to Tutankhamun's curse...

I quickly improvised a small melody and played my old Casio to comp myself I'm slowly getting there with this instrument...

Nice sounding horn and player! Fantastic job of reassembly too! Enjoy that horn!