TromboneChat

What’s a modern mouthpiece with a cup and rim like an Olds 3 but with a standard shank?

I’m a new to trombone but do have some brass experience. I’ve got a Bach 6.5AL, no-name 12C clone, and a beat up Olds 3. Getting along with them all so far but the rim on the Olds in very friendly. It would be nice to get something similar that isn’t beat up & with a regular shank.

There apparently were several "flavors" of the Olds 3. It had a somewhat smaller shank to match up with the smaller receivers of the Olds trombones.

One flavor was around the size of a Bach 12C.

One flavor was around the size of a Bach 7C.

I don't know what rim shape the Olds has. How does it compare with your 6.5AL?

I recall the rim of my Schilke 46 being quite similar to my Olds 3. The "flavor" of that 3 was around the size of a 7C.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:39 pm There apparently were several "flavors" of the Olds 3. It had a somewhat smaller shank to match up with the smaller receivers of the Olds trombones.

One flavor was around the size of a Bach 12C.

One flavor was around the size of a Bach 7C.

I don't know what rim shape the Olds has. How does it compare with your 6.5AL?

The rim is flatter than the 6.5AL with a more abrupt bite in the cup. Measuring as well as I can just below the bite with calipers, the cup is about 23.5mm wide. The 6.5AL is a bit under 25mm. Kind of tough freehanding a measurement though.

The Olds feels quite different from the 6.5AL. Just eyeballing it I thought I would hate it because on trumpet / cornet mouthpieces I generally don’t like flat rims, but here it was nice.

You may like the Denis Wick 7CS. Rim is fairly flat, size comparable to a Bach 7C (and probably the Olds as well). If the 7CS feels too big, try the 10CS.

BellBent wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:47 pm
The rim is flatter than the 6.5AL with a more abrupt bite in the cup. Measuring as well as I can just below the bite with calipers, the cup is about 23.5mm wide. The 6.5AL is a bit under 25mm. Kind of tough freehanding a measurement though.

Those measurements are quite a bit off on the small side. Don't go by those numbers.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:46 pm You may like the Denis Wick 7CS. Rim is fairly flat, size comparable to a Bach 7C (and probably the Olds as well). If the 7CS feels too big, try the 10CS.

Agree, except for the comparison part. Wick 7CS is Bach 6.5AL diameter (1" / 25.4mm) - same as the Wick 6BS. I have one here and it matches the published spec. Wick 10CS is closer to Bach 7C diameter. In between, Wick 9BS or Conn 3 both have quite flat rims.

Thanks for the suggestions, everybody.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:50 pm
Those measurements are quite a bit off on the small side. Don't go by those numbers.

At least I was consistent!

Welcome to the forum. We hold no prejudice against those who play guitar or sax.
If you like the Olds, stick with it. It's a good mouthpiece. Every brand of mouthpiece plays different, and you won't find an exact match to the feel of the Olds, even though the dimensions may be similar. There are good Olds 3 mouthpieces on ebay right now for around $25, and there are more in the Chat classifieds; it would be very easy to replace your beater Olds 3 with one of those, with no hassle of trying to find a match from another maker. The difference between the diameter of an Olds mouthpiece shank and that of your Buescher mouthpiece receiver is not extreme....... about 0.012". A couple of turns of plumber's Teflon tape on the Olds shank will adjust the insertion depth to one inch, and you're good to go.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:02 pm Welcome to the forum. We hold no prejudice against those who play guitar or sax.
If you like the Olds, stick with it. It's a good mouthpiece. Every brand of mouthpiece plays different, and you won't find an exact match to the feel of the Olds, even though the dimensions may be similar. There are good Olds 3 mouthpieces on ebay right now for around $25, and there are more in the Chat classifieds; it would be very easy to replace your beater Olds 3 with one of those, with no hassle of trying to find a match from another maker. The difference between the diameter of an Olds mouthpiece shank and that of your Buescher mouthpiece receiver is not extreme....... about 0.012". A couple of turns of plumber's Teflon tape on the Olds shank will adjust the insertion depth to one inch, and you're good to go.

Thanks for the teflon tape advice; truly it is the musician’s friend. I have used it on sax neck corks often. Even used it for a loose peg on a guitar.

I will look out for a less beat Olds 3 to be sure. One thing I notice coming over from guitar / sax world is that used trombone / gear prices are comparatively very reasonable.

I did a little work on the shank to round out the tip, wrapped it with teflon tape, and that’s working well. Still going to pick up a less beat example, but this one’s soldiering on.

Do people make adaptors for non-standard shanks? Teflon works but it’s pretty variable.

Over in trumpet-world players get obsessive about the variance in mouthpiece shanks, or rather variance in lead pipes vs. mouthpieces. Is there a similar obsession among trombonists?

BellBent wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:07 am I did a little work on the shank to round out the tip, wrapped it with teflon tape, and that’s working well. Still going to pick up a less beat example, but this one’s soldiering on.

Do people make adaptors for non-standard shanks? Teflon works but it’s pretty variable.

Over in trumpet-world players get obsessive about the variance in mouthpiece shanks, or rather variance in lead pipes vs. mouthpieces. Is there a similar obsession among trombonists?

Yes, and no. Trumpet leadpipe assemblies differ from most trombone leadpipes. With trumpet, there are two parts: a mouthpiece receiver, which is then soldered onto the leadpipe. When a mouthpiece is inserted into the receiver, there is usually a gap between the end of the mpc and the beginning of the leadpipe. Many trumpet makers and players swear that the gap—or rather its length—is crucial to the overall performance of the instrument.

Most trombones have a simple tube for a leadpipe. The leadpipe is a drawn and expanded tube (although some are formed by wrapping and brazing). The top of the tube forms the receiver.

King trombones, especially the older ones, are the exception. They have a two-piece leadpipe similar to a trumpet leadpipe. (I’m probably mistaken, but I believe newer ones no longer have the two-piece leadpipe.)

Some trombonists swear that the length a mpc is inserted into the leadpipe has the same effect on production and response that the receiver gap has in a trumpet. Sam Burtis, who used to post a lot on the old Trombone Forum, was a proponent of this idea. I have never personally experimented with this idea, but I believe there is probably something to it. After all, any change on a horn will affect the feel and sound, however small.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:39 pm There apparently were several "flavors" of the Olds 3. It had a somewhat smaller shank to match up with the smaller receivers of the Olds trombones.

One flavor was around the size of a Bach 12C.

One flavor was around the size of a Bach 7C.

I don't know what rim shape the Olds has. How does it compare with your 6.5AL?

I have now picked up another Olds 3 in much nicer shape. It’s the same size / rim as the first one. Both are closer to the 12C than the 6.5AL. Maybe the throat aperture’s a fraction wider on the new 3 vs the first. I’ve noticed there are Olds mpcs out there where “Olds” is stamped in a different letterfacing, maybe the “7C” flavored #3s are from a different era.

The new #3 plays well, a bit better for me than the first one. Tbh I’ve been playing the 12C as much as the #3; the 12C has been better for building endurance, especially in the low notes, as there’s less support in the rim. But then switching to the #3 is fun, it’s punchier & just has a different vibe.

If you can find an old Giardinelli 5D, I that would be pretty comparable. Maybe even a 6D, which is a little smaller.