TromboneChat

Wondering about the utility of smaller tube bass bones, like the Thein with 0.547/0.567 on the Ben van Dijk model, versus the more common 0.562 or Rath 0562/0.578 dual bore. My first bass was a Holton 169, followed by a Holton 180, and a Rath R9. All of which ask for more air than my Bach 42. Would the smaller tube horns fit in with the jazz, pops symphony’s and small symphonic groups I am in to be worth considering?

I love the horns I have, Rath is the favorite. But less air and still beautiful sound would be nice.

Thanks for your counsel!

(And no, not a pro, retired and having fun, with the occasional paycheck from the pops to help buy Yamasnot!)

You'll probably get a lot of opinions calling anything smaller than 562 "not a bass", but I personally think you can get a great sound on instruments with 547/562 bore. I have owned several, and honestly prefer 547/562 for just the reason you cite - air conservation. For me, 562/578 is just too big unless I were to take up gardening.

We don't see Theins over here very often, but Raths are more popular. The Holtons you mentioned would be appropriate for just about any bass gig I can think of. Yes, the 547/562 would be very appropriate for lighter stuff, and maybe for symphonic stuff with an appropriate mouthpiece choice and careful playing. I've played Olds S-20 and a dual bore Conn 70h in lighter symphonic settings. We've had discussion about this type of thing here before. It really depends on the group, and what you and your section mates think blends. If you're careful, you can make a range of things work.

It still might be some time before we have to worry about that kind of thing here. Right now we're lucky just to get any call for a gig. Most of them are recordings and even then, smaller settings.

My ears tell me in a band playing older charts, maybe 1965 and earlier, even a .525/.547 could make a very decently blending small bore 4th bone sound. Though prior to 1960 .525 max would be better, and prior to 1955 the same bore as the guy on two would sound best.

How. Does. It. Sound?

At the end of the day, that's all that really matters. That's all your section mates, other instrumentalists, conductors, bandleaders, audience members care about.

I used just such a set up in many situations. Three trombone big band sections where there is an occasional trigger note. Light Classical. Shows. Chamber orchestra. The circus.

Nobody ever asked me the bore size.

In the context of mostly amateur playing there's a lot you can "get away with" in terms of equipment. I've used a peashooter 485 for tenor parts in community wind bands and the odd Easter church gig, and it was always fine within the standards of the group. Using a medium/large tenor or a 547-562 small bass can definitely be musically appropriate in big band or small symphonic settings, besides which you will overall sound better on gear that is easier for you to play.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:41 amFor me, 562/578 is just too big unless I were to take up gardening.

Hard agree. Those monster horns demand serious athleticism to manage, and IMO there are very few players who are strong enough to make it work. Setting aside full-time pros, most amateur/student players I've heard on 562-578 just sounded bad.

for the vast majority of the time only other trombonists really care about bore size, or instruments. how often do we ask a clarinetest what reed they're on, or what bow a cellist is using?

For jazz and pops, lots of people like a DuoGravis, especially the sterling silver. It would even work in small symphonic groups for those listening with their ears. I don't think the tubing is smaller but they're very responsive. Failing that, a good Conn 71/2/3H with a 2G-like mouthpiece might serve your purposes.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:42 am for the vast majority of the time only other trombonists really care about bore size, or instruments. how often do we ask a clarinetest what reed they're on, or what bow a cellist is using?

Well, cellists do talk about bows a lot, clarinetists do talk about reed all the time. I think saxophists is worse though.
I do play bass parts often on my Bach 45, the bore is 547, a really good bass in big band.

The Ben van Dijk Thein is the closest, in my humble opinion, to a Duo Gravis in response that I have played on. Doesn't get an edge as easily, which allows for more controlled volume output than the Duo Gravis. Definitely one of my favorite modern basses.

For what it's worth, I've had some good times in the past with an 88H slide and a 2G hooked up to a 72H bell.

I had an Olds .547/.562 bass with the 9.25in bell. It felt good and blended real well. Especially after i had a M. Schmidt valve put on.

From a fellow amateur, my small bass (Olds P-24G with indy standard rotaries, a 9" bell and modded to accept a 0.547/0.562" Edwards slide) works just fine and I've had no complaints. Our community orchestra is on the larger size (160+, pre-COVID) and we typically have 2-3 on the bass trombone book. For concerts, they put strategically placed mics right in front of us. I've had standard bass equipment in the past and my current horn accomplishes exactly what I want it to do without leaving me out of breath.

Thank you all for your thoughts!

I have gotten compliments with the Rath, and Holton’s, so maybe I am doing something right. I love the sound Ben van Dijk has, and use him as the main guide for my sound. Now Raul, if I can find a used Thein BVD, or maybe a smaller slide for the Rath (I do love the way it helps me do what I’m thinking). I’m using a DE mouthpiece that lets me get around well from Bb above staff to double pedal B. Bach 42 BO keeps me busy in the smaller pops group..

I know. Practice, practice, practice . Got to get the double pedals better.

On a lot of our basses we match the valve size to the slide, not oversized. While I can't conclusively prove the smaller tubing makes for greater efficiency on valved notes, it does have the consequence of a very consistent feel from using the valves to the open horn, giving nothing away in return.

On my personal horn I use a cut 9" Olds Roberts bell and .562 valves, with no detriment to the big bass sound most are after. While I don't use a 47/62 slide, I could see this working well with it.

As you will see from the list below, I have 2 bass trombones. My main bass is an independent valved hybrid with a 0.562in bore and a 10in bell. I use it for large orchestral playing and also for big band gigs. My other bass is a single trigger, 0.555in bore, 9in bell Besson Academy 409 which I use for the times when the big, hybrid would be like using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut, think 3rd part in classical and early romantic works, especially when the 1st player is using an alto and the 2nd is using a medium bore tenor. I also often use it in early rehearsals, whatever the music, as it is lighter to hold.
The Besson 10-10 bass and the B&H Imperial and 555 are all the same model.

Cheers

Stewbones43

Do people who use a 47/62 slide on a bass use a bass or tenor leadpipe? The bass pipe won't fit in a .547 inner slide tube, will it?

btone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:13 am Do people who use a 47/62 slide on a bass use a bass or tenor leadpipe? The bass pipe won't fit in a .547 inner slide tube, will it?

Of course you must use a 0.547" leadpipe. I'm not sure what makes a leadpipe a "bass leadpipe" - other than fitting into the bore of a bass trombone slide (usually 0.562" or 0.563").

This video may be of some interest

I don´t know much about leadpipes, but when I try my Bach 42 slide on my Bach 45 bone it does not work as good. It feels more "basstrombone" with the B 45 slide.
I realy like that video NBischoff!

Iv'e been listening to some of Brandt Attema's playing as well as Ben Van Dijk and I noticed that there sound is not very wide but very solid and punchy. Almost like what one would expect from a "commercial" sound.

NBischoff wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:52 am This video may be of some interest

Very good point. I keep my single valve single bore Holton 169 for that reason. Lighter and I get further on a tank up.

JCBone wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:27 am Iv'e been lostening to some of Brandt Attema's playing as well as Ben Van Dijk and I noticed that there sound is not very wide but very solid and punchy. Almost like what one would expect from a "commercial" sound.

Brandt has quite a wide sound in person... very warm and encompassing.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:19 am

btone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:13 am Do people who use a 47/62 slide on a bass use a bass or tenor leadpipe? The bass pipe won't fit in a .547 inner slide tube, will it?

Of course you must use a 0.547" leadpipe. I'm not sure what makes a leadpipe a "bass leadpipe" - other than fitting into the bore of a bass trombone slide (usually 0.562" or 0.563").

I’ve always wondered about 547 bass leadpipes and 562 tenor leadpipes. Haven’t heard much about this.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:52 am I don´t know much about leadpipes, but when I try my Bach 42 slide on my Bach 45 bone it does not work as good. It feels more "basstrombone" with the B 45 slide.
I realy like that video NBischoff!

According to the shop cards, they have the same leadpipe.

That said, my Mt.V 42 slide (and thus leadpipe) feels different than either of my 45 slides. I do find my 45 tends to work best with a 50 slide, however.

Back to the topic, A .547 or a .547/.562 slide is a great sleeper slide for many basses. If it sounds good, it is good.

Cheers,
Andy

I believe that one of my instruments qualifies as a 'light bass'.
It is a Karl Monnich bass trombone (although pedants might prefer to refer to it as a 'tenor-bass'). Its specs:
Key: double valve Inline Bb F D
Gold Brass Bell = 9.0” with large kranz
slide = dual bore 0.512”/0.544”
valve bore = 0.599”

The leadpipe requires a European shank.
The mouthpieces I use for it are:
Werner Schmidt model ‘Solist 270’
Doug Elliott W110 rim , LB I cup, 6E medium shank.

I use the Schmidt mpc when playing in a classical setting. The Doug Elliott for commercial stuff
- for which the Monnich can bark like Duo Gravis.

Regards to All

Found a single bore slide in 0.562 and I am happier; blows more like my Holton's. It's a yellow brass with nickle silver crook, so a little different sound. The dual bore is nickle silver all the way. If I get a chance to try a 47/62 I will.

Got my second jab in. If everyone in our jazz group gets vaccinated we will start getting together. Any reduction in isolation would hugely improve my mental health!