TromboneChat

I recently received a .508 bore slide from Roy Lawler to replace the .525 bore I originally ordered. The material is the same, nickel tubes with brass bow. As I’ve written earlier here on the forum, I really liked the .525 bore but it was hard to play in the high register. Also annoying was that the high Bb in first position was a mostly unusable note.

Roy said that the bell section of the Model 4, or Big Boy was essentially identical to the bell section of his model 2 (I ordered a set back bell), so I wouldn’t need a new bell. After two days of practice, I can say that the new slide is a real delight to play. Now I understand why people say the Lawler is so easy to play! The high Bb pops out nicely now. I haven’t settled on a mouthpiece yet because I’m waiting for some Doug Elliott parts but using the D+ works very well and the sound is almost as rich as with the .525 bore slide.

What a difference 0.017” can make.

.508 is where it's at.

.525 doesn't know what it is

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 am .508 is where it's at.

.525 doesn't know what it is

Nonsense...

I recommend to practise instead of buying mps and trombones and phílosophize over bores and bells...

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:08 am Nonsense...

I recommend to practise instead of buying mps and trombones and phílosophize over bores and bells...

Well... no philosophizing on my part, the difference I felt was from direct experience. After playing the same things, my embouchure was less tired and the Bb centered much better, all with the same mouthpiece. I practiced hard for a whole year and really wanted that slide to work but really couldn’t make it so. I didn’t buy a new trombone either, I was fortunate enough to be able to exchange just the slide after consulting with Roy Lawler, who was very supportive, by the way. As far as a new mouthpiece, most players will say that different sized mouthpieces work better with different bore sizes. After consulting Doug Elliot, he recommended that I only need to change the back bore on a cup and rim I already use.

I too recommend practice, especially over making assumptions.

.508 and .525 horns are 2 different animals.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 am .508 is where it's at.

.525 doesn't know what it is

Interesting.

Now, I’m no professional, and I’ve played on a .547 for 45 years, but I just happen to be looking for a 508/525 and have a newish Bach 36BO and a King 3BF on loan right now.

After a long weekend of playing them both (5GS MP on each) I’m pretty certain that I’ll never get on with the King 3BF as it feels way too claustrophobic, but the Bach 36BO felt and sounded fantastic to me. Maybe I’m just used to putting more air through the instrument and the Bach just isn’t different enough from my 88H, but I definitely felt at home on the Bach. Part of me thinks that the Bach is just too like the 88H, but if it is, it’s lighter and just as flexible, so maybe I could just ditch the 88H?

For an amateur like me, playing a bit of everything and on every part, the 88H has done the job for years, but as my age advances, something requiring less air might be a useful addition and the Bach seems to fit the bill.

Maybe given time, my playing would adapt to a .508, maybe I should’ve used a different MP, but it would seem to be that this is another area where there are way too many variables to dismiss one or the other.

Harrison, as I still have the King for a couple more days, change my mind...what should I play to make it appeal?

Blenky wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:01 pm ... something requiring less air ...

It just may be that the "less air" part means the smaller bore lights up the higher harmonics (which is what indicates volume to the listener) at a lower dB volume. Thus it gets the desired sound quality sooner.

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:08 am I recommend to practise instead of buying mps and trombones and phílosophize over bores and bells...

...says the guy who spent 40 years searching for "the perfect trombone" and describes the nuances of various horns in vivid detail:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 86#p137186

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 20#p134720

Blenky wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:01 pm
For an amateur like me, playing a bit of everything and on every part, the 88H has done the job for years, but as my age advances, something requiring less air might be a useful addition and the Bach seems to fit the bill.

At risk of drifting off topic, did you consider trying the 0.525” slide (SL2525) with your 88h? Might be a nice option if you like your 88h and want something which helps the air last longer?

Blenky wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:01 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 am .508 is where it's at.

.525 doesn't know what it is

Interesting.

Now, I’m no professional, and I’ve played on a .547 for 45 years, but I just happen to be looking for a 508/525 and have a newish Bach 36BO and a King 3BF on loan right now.

After a long weekend of playing them both (5GS MP on each) I’m pretty certain that I’ll never get on with the King 3BF as it feels way too claustrophobic, but the Bach 36BO felt and sounded fantastic to me. Maybe I’m just used to putting more air through the instrument and the Bach just isn’t different enough from my 88H, but I definitely felt at home on the Bach. Part of me thinks that the Bach is just too like the 88H, but if it is, it’s lighter and just as flexible, so maybe I could just ditch the 88H?

For an amateur like me, playing a bit of everything and on every part, the 88H has done the job for years, but as my age advances, something requiring less air might be a useful addition and the Bach seems to fit the bill.

Maybe given time, my playing would adapt to a .508, maybe I should’ve used a different MP, but it would seem to be that this is another area where there are way too many variables to dismiss one or the other.

Harrison, as I still have the King for a couple more days, change my mind...what should I play to make it appeal?

So, there's a couple of things here. I only know what works for me, so take it with a grain of salt. You've played a .547 for decades. A king 3B is going to feel significantly different from the 88H, especially if you approach it like an 88H. If you play it like an 88H, you won't like it. It sounds like you want something to scale back on but still do the same things with as the 88H. In that case, the 36 or a Conn 79 would indeed do what you want. The king 3B is a horn for a stage band or a jazz group or punchy latin music.

Quick question, is it a real 5GS or are you adding the S to say that it's small shank? I have never seen a 5GS and I know it is supposed to have a shallower cup, but I know the small shank 5G with the same cup and throat as the large bore version of a 5G is a mismatch on a 3B.

The King feels claustrophobic because you are probably trying to play it like an 88H. A MP with a deep cup with help you think you can play it the same way but it won't work well. A MP with a shallow cup will make playing it the right way feel more similar to your 88H with a deep cup. Still apples and oranges, but this might be one thing to consider.

A Bach 36 is not similar to an 88H, and you can test this out by trying to project with both of them in the mid to upper register. I think the King is different enough that it makes the Bach and Conn feel similar to you.

As far as what to play? Try some latin charts! Something with sizzle and punch. And if you can use a shallow mouthpiece with an open backbore, you will see what the 3B is all about.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 am .508 is where it's at.

.525 doesn't know what it is

Them’s fighting words, sir! 36Bs everywhere may disagree with you. (Though I do love a 500/508 myself.)

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:34 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:29 am .508 is where it's at.

.525 doesn't know what it is

Them’s fighting words, sir! 36Bs everywhere may disagree with you. (Though I do love a 500/508 myself.)

I know. But what do you always hear. Oh, if I could only have one horn to play everything, it would be...

You can have two horns !

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:37 pm

MagnumH wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:34 pm

Them’s fighting words, sir! 36Bs everywhere may disagree with you. (Though I do love a 500/508 myself.)

I know. But what do you always hear. Oh, if I could only have one horn to play everything, it would be...

You can have two horns !

Just two? Pah.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:33 pm

Blenky wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:01 pm

Interesting.

Now, I’m no professional, and I’ve played on a .547 for 45 years, but I just happen to be looking for a 508/525 and have a newish Bach 36BO and a King 3BF on loan right now.

After a long weekend of playing them both (5GS MP on each) I’m pretty certain that I’ll never get on with the King 3BF as it feels way too claustrophobic, but the Bach 36BO felt and sounded fantastic to me. Maybe I’m just used to putting more air through the instrument and the Bach just isn’t different enough from my 88H, but I definitely felt at home on the Bach. Part of me thinks that the Bach is just too like the 88H, but if it is, it’s lighter and just as flexible, so maybe I could just ditch the 88H?

For an amateur like me, playing a bit of everything and on every part, the 88H has done the job for years, but as my age advances, something requiring less air might be a useful addition and the Bach seems to fit the bill.

Maybe given time, my playing would adapt to a .508, maybe I should’ve used a different MP, but it would seem to be that this is another area where there are way too many variables to dismiss one or the other.

Harrison, as I still have the King for a couple more days, change my mind...what should I play to make it appeal?

So, there's a couple of things here. I only know what works for me, so take it with a grain of salt. You've played a .547 for decades. A king 3B is going to feel significantly different from the 88H, especially if you approach it like an 88H. If you play it like an 88H, you won't like it. It sounds like you want something to scale back on but still do the same things with as the 88H. In that case, the 36 or a Conn 79 would indeed do what you want. The king 3B is a horn for a stage band or a jazz group or punchy latin music.

Quick question, is it a real 5GS or are you adding the S to say that it's small shank? I have never seen a 5GS and I know it is supposed to have a shallower cup, but I know the small shank 5G with the same cup and throat as the large bore version of a 5G is a mismatch on a 3B.

The King feels claustrophobic because you are probably trying to play it like an 88H. A MP with a deep cup with help you think you can play it the same way but it won't work well. A MP with a shallow cup will make playing it the right way feel more similar to your 88H with a deep cup. Still apples and oranges, but this might be one thing to consider.

A Bach 36 is not similar to an 88H, and you can test this out by trying to project with both of them in the mid to upper register. I think the King is different enough that it makes the Bach and Conn feel similar to you.

As far as what to play? Try some latin charts! Something with sizzle and punch. And if you can use a shallow mouthpiece with an open backbore, you will see what the 3B is all about.

You're right Harrison, I thought the 5GS was just a small shank 5G, my bad! It's what the store provided, the King has no MP in the case, the Bach has a 7c.

I'll see what latin/jazz stuff i can find, its not my usual rep, I do like the feel if the King, if not the sound I make on it

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:24 pm

Blenky wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:01 pm
For an amateur like me, playing a bit of everything and on every part, the 88H has done the job for years, but as my age advances, something requiring less air might be a useful addition and the Bach seems to fit the bill.

At risk of drifting off topic, did you consider trying the 0.525” slide (SL2525) with your 88h? Might be a nice option if you like your 88h and want something which helps the air last longer?

Interesting, not something I'd even considered!

Food for thought. Looking for a smaller bore instrument is also about blending a bit better with some of the smaller groups I play with (brass/trombone quartet/quintet). The 88H sometimes sounds a little out of place.

The difference between a .525 horn and a .508 horn is as others said "they are different animals". From my experience everything affects. I've got tenor trombones with various bore sizes.458, 485, .500, .508, 500/.525, .500/.530, 525, .536, .547 and more I have forgotten about. For me I have found they sound best with different mouthpieces.

-Alto trombone, Bach 15E or Bach 12E
-C-Trombone, Conn 60H < .500. I use a Hammond 14XS mouthpiece
- Small bore <= .500 without f-valve. I use a Bach 11C or similar
- Small bore <=.500 with f-valve (also if dual bore and the first tube is .500 and the second is larger than .500) I use a Bach 6 1/2AL.
- Small/Medium bore .508 without f-valve t I use a Hammond 13M or a Bach 6 1/2AL. Without the valve I could also use a Bach 11C or similar.
-Medium bore .525. I use a Hammond 12M
-Large bore .547. I use a Hammond 12M or 12MXL

So to me the difference between a.508 and .a 525 is a significant difference in size for me as that makes me consider a mouthpiece change.

/Ton

508 and 525 overlap a lot. I dumped 547 in favor of 525, but it depends a lot on which 525 you play. A 3b+, 79h, 36b, Shires 525, Rath R3, and Lawler Big Boy all have distinctly different personalities and playing characteristics. A big mouthpiece in a Shires 525 can be convincing (on both sides of the bell) in a lot of symphonic situations. A 3b+ with a small mouthpiece might pass for a 508. It's really hard to believe sweeping generalizations.

Air volume between 525 and 547 is a big deal. Speed and edge of articulations between 508 and 525 are a big deal.

I've spent a lot of time comparing horns, and sold a lot of horns that had too much overlap with other horns I've got. From the player's point of view, there's a big difference, but from the listener's point of view, the differences are more subtle.

My keeper combination is 88h, 79h, and the Courtois 402ac. With small mouthpieces, there is a lot of overlap between 79h and 402, but with a bigger mouthpiece, the 79h shows a lot more depth and weight of sound. And the Courtois shows a more pointed articulation, and gets edge in the sound at lower volume levels.

I've sent away a lot of 508s that overlapped the 79h too much. I think the Courtois fills my needs for a 500 bore without crowding the 525 too much, while still giving me a thick sound.

When you bring the name Lawler into it, there is another level of "can't compare to this" going on. Lawlers are heavy, as I understand them, and they're not going to play like a 3b at all. I've never played any of them, but I see people trying to get rid of the Big Boys more frequently than the other models, so I'd guess that they don't make as many people happy as his other models. I'd find it easy to believe that a 508 Lawler is a more fun to play instrument than a Big Boy, even though I am a big 525 fan. With the extra weight, I'd expect the smaller horn to perform better, especially if you're looking for a more commercial sound.

Reminds me of many days ago tuning the jets and metering rods on carburetors. Slide rule days.
The difference is not the diameter, the difference is the area of the circle and how much larger it is. Throw in the outer slide is bigger yet and opens the horn up even more in the longer positions.