TromboneChat

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:08 pm**

hey all!
I'm currently playing in a V.Bach Stradivarius 42g from 1990, 8.5" gold brass bell, tradicinal rotor closed wrap, I think
the slide is nicker silver. I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands but, how would you describe the bell or the slide in terms of new brands like shires or Edwards? I mean, is the slide more similar than a tw47 a t47 or a tb47? what about the crook?, is the bell 85/15 like the new ones? is the bell more similar than a Lw a Mw or a Hw? if you have other similities to consider let me know please.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:17 pm**

Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.

However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:08 pm**

All of the corp 42 bells that i have played have had lighter ish bells, but i’ve only played 4 and owned half that.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:15 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:17 pm Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.

However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.

Thanks Aidan! only one question What would you say about the bell weight?

by the way I'm not traying to "recreate" the horn, this is only information to have a broader vision of what I am playing and What I want to play.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:20 pm**

Jose999 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:15 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:17 pm Honestly, nothing made by the boutique makers is exactly the same.

However, a nickel slide with bass crook will be the most similar, paired with a one piece gold (or rose brass, from Edwards) bell, or the closest two-piece bell. There's nothing like the closed wrap Bach rotor available, but the AR valve from Edwards or the dual-bore from Shires might be close.
Thanks Aidan! only one question What would you say about the bell weight?
by the way I'm not traying to "recreate" the horn, this is only information to have a broader vision of what I am playing and What I want to play.

Bach bell weights are all over the place. Usually gold bells are one "size" thicker than yellow of the same era. I've had a Corp 42G that was pretty thick, for example. Your '90s horn may be on the thicker side, since on average... very broadly... '90s bells can be thicker than some other vintages.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:39 pm**

I used to do sales for the Shires company. Not all the options available now were available then, but here's what I would ideally put together as a starting point for comparison:

TB47NLW slide, starting with a 1.5 leadpipe
Standard rotary valve
yellow brass X tuning slide
TII 5GM T8 bell

And then, of course, we would try other things as well.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:05 pm**

And in M&W speak.
322-1G-NN(B)
1 piece gold brass bell, soldered small French Bead.
Lightweight nickel tube slide with bass nickel crook.

Posted: **Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:17 pm**

Jose999 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:08 pm I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands

I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.

I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 am**

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:17 pm
Jose999 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:08 pm I know the old bach's had a very special sound which is not commond to find in new brands
I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.

I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)

At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.

Posted: **Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:49 pm**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 am
JoeAumann wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:17 pm

I would like to push back on this, and I'm as much of a "Bach-guy" as anyone.

I really don't think this is true. There are special Bach instruments for sure, but many "new brands" have a special sound, and is common to experience. People often buy in to some sort of mystique about Bachs that is probably foolish. Take M&W instruments for example (right above). Every one of them I have tried are excellent instruments with a special sound. They are the most fabulous sounding instruments I have experienced. (And I have a stable of Bach Stradivarius that you'd be hard pressed to find better examples of each model I own.)
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:11 am**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 am
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.

I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:11 am**

Quite simply, ALL makes of trombone have their own character. Years ago, some new to the market makers claimed they could 'clone' popular makes and model of trombone , which was simply rubbish. Unfortunately, this prompted a belief that it was possible to clone another makers product amoungst the trombone playing masses.
It's all about marketing.

Chris

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:25 am**

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:11 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 am
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.

You can find special sounds, but you won't find the Bach sound in those other brands. I think that's the point we're trying to make.

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:14 am**

Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?

... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:19 am**

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:11 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 am
At lot of sound is the player. When I play a great Bach the sound IS unlike any modern instrument I've played to date. The mystique is what each individual hears but to think that it's foolish is foolish.
I didn't mean to offend your Bach-sensibilities, but to say that it is not common to find a special sound in new brands, is simply not true.

Joe I read your post differently I guess. I was comparing vintage Bach sounds to modern sounds. I thought you were doing the same. My point is that personally I haven't found a modern instrument where I can achieve a classic Bach sound. If I have that classic Bach sound in my head then that's what I have. My first bass bone was a Bach 50BG. If you want to call the sound special that's fine. I'd refer to it as unique to the specific brand. But then again you can ask 5 trombonists to play 1 instrument they'll probably each sound a bit different.

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:20 am**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:14 am Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?

... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.

As opposed to white noise on a stick??

(It's a joke, it's a joke)

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:32 pm**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:20 am
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:14 am Bach sound? You mean that "sock got stuck somewhere in the slide crook but I can't find it" sound?

... Oh look, there's the door. Moving to the door.

As opposed to white noise on a stick??
(It's a joke, it's a joke)

*Not listening! I can't he-AR youuu. I already left out the door I spotted! Wait a minute --WHAT did you call me??!?*

Posted: **Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:44 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:25 am You can find special sounds, but you won't find the Bach sound in those other brands. I think that's the point we're trying to make.

Related, as I have done this, you get closer with the Bach flare... but not quite there. Tuning slide is pretty big part of it. At least, it was on the bass I did.

I did like that horn a lot. Still kinda bummed that I sold it, but I just preferred the full Bach experience and one can only horde so many horns.

Cheers,
Andy

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