TromboneChat

Hello Trombone Chat!

First post in a while, but I need help on performance practice for a "new to me" piece.

I recently discovered the Ernst Sachse Concertino. It was published sometime in the 1840's from what I can gather. It's a neat piece with some really nice moments in it. There's just one issue with it, and it's the all too familiar issue of the dotted eighth-sixteenth we see in the David...

For those not familiar, the "first movement" of the concertino, there are triplet figures and dotted eighth sixteenth rhythms written side-by-side. I know that the dotted eighth-sixteenth was at one time shorthand for a triplet "quarter eighth" rhythm. I have heard multiple recordings in which the soloist an the orchestra play the dotted eighth-sixteenth for these rhythms. I have heard one recording in which they play the first movement as all triplets. I know which one I like better and the artistic reasons for it.

My question to you all is this: on this specific piece, can we figure out/do we know if the dotted eighth-sixteenth rhythm is shorthand for a triplet quarter and eighth? We know the David is meant to be performed as written, but from what I have learned, that was an exception to the performance practice of the day. Since I believe this piece was published after the David (I know the David was written in 1837, but I am not convinced of the date of the Sachse), did Sachse want to expand on the rhythmic contrasts of the David? Or was this written with (what appears to be) the standard practice of the day in mind?

Thank you in advance!

Nick Bulgarino

Yeah, how do we "know" what David intended for that rhythm? At least one publisher thought they knew better. I know what teachers intend, but we can't know what David intended unless he wrote about the piece and said "I wrote this on purpose to create a sense of dread in conservatory students for the next 200 years. Please definitely play these distinctly from the triplets"

I have no idea what he wrote about that, if he did at all.

I would play them as written, since that is what we do in modern times. Except in many jazz genres. And certain European waltzes. And historically informed pieces where we think we might have insight. And in Bach's cello suites.

Well... Yeah. Play as written. Maybe, definitely.

Dotted 8th-16th as a shorthand for triplets is somewhat contentious. I don't think I'd say it was the standard practice. It might have been sometimes used like that, but that certainly doesn't mean that it is always the case. In the first part of the Sachse, the dotted rhythm is far more prevalent than triplets (for instance, you get something like 30 bars of dotted rhythms before you see any triplets), and is the characteristic motive of the whole first part. It's also used in conjunction with double-dotted quarters several times, while most of the triplets are used in a long passage where everything is triplets. There are also triplets juxtaposed with straight 8ths for 3 against 2, and dotted rhythms used in strictly duple contexts (against 8ths and 16ths). So I don't think the mere presence of triplets in piece warrants interpreting the dotted rhythm as shorthand for triplet quarter-eighth.

The part that has the most juxtaposition is the theme and variation, and that isn't actually Sachse's, the theme is from Bellini's Norma. There, I could conceive of it as more a triplet feel (and it is often performed that way in opera productions), but it works both ways, or with some variety with some 16th tighter than others. However we might note that Bellini does use the triplet quarter-eighth notation explicitly in certain contexts (already on bar 16 of the overture), so that begs the question: why would he use both notations if they mean the same thing to him.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:53 pm Yeah, how do we "know" what David intended for that rhythm? At least one publisher thought they knew better. I know what teachers intend, but we can't know what David intended unless he wrote about the piece and said "I wrote this on purpose to create a sense of dread in conservatory students for the next 200 years. Please definitely play these distinctly from the triplets"

I had various teachers tell me that there is something written with regard to this, which is how we know. Was it written by David? To be honest, I have no idea. I never learned that solo with the intent of interpreting it and performing it for the sake of the art, but rather for auditions, which mostly comprised of making the rhythms as correct in time as possible to show you understand the difference between them. When I started learning the piece for music's sake, I listened to a lot of the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto for the right flavor. There's a juxtaposition of those rhythms there too. That's how we know I suppose.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:56 pm Dotted 8th-16th as a shorthand for triplets is somewhat contentious. I don't think I'd say it was the standard practice. It might have been sometimes used like that, but that certainly doesn't mean that it is always the case. In the first part of the Sachse, the dotted rhythm is far more prevalent than triplets (for instance, you get something like 30 bars of dotted rhythms before you see any triplets), and is the characteristic motive of the whole first part. It's also used in conjunction with double-dotted quarters several times, while most of the triplets are used in a long passage where everything is triplets. There are also triplets juxtaposed with straight 8ths for 3 against 2, and dotted rhythms used in strictly duple contexts (against 8ths and 16ths). So I don't think the mere presence of triplets in piece warrants interpreting the dotted rhythm as shorthand for triplet quarter-eighth.

I was under the impression that this was the standard practice. I'll redact that now.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:56 pm The part that has the most juxtaposition is the theme and variation, and that isn't actually Sachse's, the theme is from Bellini's Norma. I could conceive of it as more a triplet feel (and it is often performed that way in opera productions), but it works both ways, or with some variety with some 16th tighter than others. However we might note that Bellini does use the triplet quarter-eighth notation explicitly in certain contexts (already on bar 16 of the overture), so that begs the question: why would he use both notations if they mean the same thing to him.

I did not know that, though I thought the theme was familiar. And I see your point.

I've heard that publishing errors or publishing short-hands have changed pieces and performance practice before. Hence the exploration. Unlike the David, there are plenty of recordings that support both styles.

I think I'll end up performing it as written though.

Best bet is to play as written. I have encountered some conductors who have asked for dotted-eighth-sixteenth rhythms to be turned into triplet rhythms, but that has only been in Italian Opera like Donizetti (sp?) and early Verdi where there are both rhythms being played simultaneously in the orchestra. Even when there are not triplets and dotted rhythms at the same time, there is a tradition (not always observed) to play the sixteenths a bit late in the dotted rhythms. In his book "Trombone Technique", Denis Wick described that style as playing the 16th more like a part of a group of five. That is for Italian (and some French) operatic music from a particular period. I haven't seen it elsewhere.

Learn the piece as written, but be open to changing some things if it makes musical sense and can be adapted by all involved. The Sachse and the David are both standard audition/jury material so learning them as written is probably a good first step, since that will be the best way to play when you are being judged on your performance. Playing music for a performance that is not tied to a grade, or getting a job, or winning a competition opens up more possibilities for individual expressive choices.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:23 pm Best bet is to play as written. I have encountered some conductors who have asked for dotted-eighth-sixteenth rhythms to be turned into triplet rhythms, but that has only been in Italian Opera like Donizetti (sp?) and early Verdi where there are both rhythms being played simultaneously in the orchestra. Even when there are not triplets and dotted rhythms at the same time, there is a tradition (not always observed) to play the sixteenths a bit late in the dotted rhythms. In his book "Trombone Technique", Denis Wick described that style as playing the 16th more like a part of a group of five. That is for Italian (and some French) operatic music from a particular period. I haven't seen it elsewhere.

Learn the piece as written, but be open to changing some things if it makes musical sense and can be adapted by all involved. The Sachse and the David are both standard audition/jury material so learning them as written is probably a good first step, since that will be the best way to play when you are being judged on your performance. Playing music for a performance that is not tied to a grade, or getting a job, or winning a competition opens up more possibilities for individual expressive choices.

Jim Scott

I wonder how they did play it in the days when it was written? Or if it was played played at all that time? Maybe it was composed for a specific trombone player at that time?

Leif

I'm not a musicologist - many of them certainly claim to know a lot about performance practice from different eras, but since these pieces pre-date recordings, who can know for sure? Maybe there are some method books or articles from players from that era, or even their students?

Jim Scott