TromboneChat

Hello I am advancing in my trombone studies but cannot currently afford a teacher. I have been told that I use "tongue stopping" in my playing but I have not been able to find someone to tell me exactly how I should stop a note without using the tongue! A fellow player also told me that although my tone and intonation are good I need to work on "shaping" my notes more (Classical music). What does this mean? How do you shape notes on a trombone? Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated!

try some singing - the same way you end notes there, try to emulate that feeling and concept on trombone with focus on the airstream until it feels natural.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:34 pm try some singing - the same way you end notes there, try to emulate that feeling and concept on trombone with focus on the airstream until it feels natural.

This.

One way to think of it: If air is used to start and sustain a note, then stopping the flow of air will stop the note. For now, it could be helpful for you to focus on (and exaggerate) ending notes by simply stopping blowing. It will sound rough and feel strange at first, and even unmusical. With practice, it will sound better. Singing will help you think of musically ending a note.

Later, with some careful observation, you will discover that a little help from the embouchure and the back part of the tongue can also help shape the end of the note. (Right now, you are probably using the front part of the tongue to stop notes. That’s okay in some jazz and modern solo articulations, but generally not accepted in classical music.)

I stop every note except the last note in a phrase with my tongue. The same goes for individual notes separated by rests. The last note in a phrase ends with my throat closing the air stream, unless it is an extended decrescendo fading away until vibration stops because of the lack of sufficient air to sustain it.

I'm not sure what your colleague meant by "shaping" notes. It wouldn't hurt to ask them. There is a concept that a series of notes is created by taking a constant air stream and slicing it cleanly with the tongue so that each piece is the same duration and volume, subject to articulation marks, as opposed to starting and ending each note separately, which sounds like huffing each note, which would sound an audible crescendo, followed by a decrescendo on each note. Think of each note as being in the shape of a dash mark in bold type, instead of being in the shape of a football. It's easier to visualize than it is to explain or convey to someone else. Perhaps this is what they meant by "shaping'.

Since not everybody sings or thinks that way, I prefer to relate trombone articulation to talking.

Say "I won a million dollars"
It's all one flow of air that starts at the beginning and tapers to the end. No tongue starts or stops except "dollars" where the "n" runs right into the "d."

Now make your playing sound like that.

singingbowlorchestra wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:38 pm how I should stop a note without using the tongue!

If you were blowing out a candle you probably don't use your entire lungful of air nor do you have to stop this air with your tongue.

You simply ceased exhaling.

You could puff out several candles with one breath without having to stop the air with your tongue in between. You cease exhaling between candles.

Say this: "tah... tah... tah... tah."

You are able to end each "ah" without needing to add a "t" at the end.

When you first try to end notes without the tongue, the tail end will probably sound weak and flabby and maybe fall in pitch because you didn't end the exhale quickly enough.

The clean end without the hard stop of the tongue is something you work on and strive for.

The reason why the pitch falls is letting go of the embouchure formation too early. Your chops need to feel like you're STILL PLAYING the note after the air stops.

Don't collapse before you cross the finish line - run past it.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:26 pm The reason why the pitch falls is letting go of the embouchure formation too early. Your chops need to feel like you're STILL PLAYING the note after the air stops.

Don't collapse before you cross the finish line - run past it.

YES!
I wonder why that is so seldom said....
Very important!

Great posts here from Doug.

You can also experiment with long tones and decrescendos - keep holding the note while getting quieter and quieter, and see just how long you can hold the note and how quiet you can go. Pay close attention to the pitch (as Doug says, don't let the embouchure relax or collapse as you decrescendo). This might help you understand the sensations involved in "stopping" the note versus "releasing" it.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:44 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:26 pm The reason why the pitch falls is letting go of the embouchure formation too early. Your chops need to feel like you're STILL PLAYING the note after the air stops.

Don't collapse before you cross the finish line - run past it.

YES!
I wonder why that is so seldom said....
Very important!

Pretty much NOBODY says it. Sagging pitch is always blamed on "air support" or not stopping the air cleanly (as mentioned above).

Jim Markey covers end of note stuff in this masterclass. This whole thing is gold:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ZqM9wJxBo

OMG.

I made the egregious error of saying "A comes before B" instead of saying "B comes after A"

In a legato or tenuto phrase, the next note articulation or lip slur stops the previous note.

In a staccato phrase the embouchure stays formed and the air just ceases to support the individual notes, and they just end.

In the end of many, but not all, jazz style phrases the way the phrase ends is almost more important than how you start it and it's with a tongue stop. Here is where some of that shaping comes in. If you are doing a slight crescendo to the end of the phrase, even if it is just the space of a quarter note, that quarter note crescendos into the next downbeat and you may even tongue stop it into rests. Don't ever end the notes all in different spots, and take your note endings from your lead trumpeter.

I like to just take the horn away from my face and just resume normal breathing at the end of a phrase in legit music.

Maynard Ferguson would just explode out of the end of his phrases and shout "yeah!"

Wynton sometimes takes the horn off his face while he's still playing...

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:13 am Jim Markey covers end of note stuff in this masterclass. This whole thing is gold:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ZqM9wJxBo

Yes! I saw this last night and thought I should post the link here, but you beat me to it.
Great masterclass!

Hi

I also usually just stop blowing, without tonguing, when i play solo. But tongue-cutting can be used sometimes for phrasing duties, especially in brass sections or big-band. Both good, has to be adjusted regarding the musical setting

For swing feel, pay attention to the timing of the note stop.

If you play a string of marcato quarters, ain't got that swing. But then each time through, shorten the note leaving a little rest. Try almost-a-quarter, dotted 16th, 2/3 of a beat, exactly half a beat, etc. Some of these will swing like a mother...

My preferred note ending technique is at 1:23!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:05 am

My preferred note ending technique is at 1:23!

Great video thanks! I'm not sure that would be suitable for orchestra! My conductors wig would probably fall off if I did that!

Wow! Such a great set of responses! Thank you for all your advice everyone it has been very helpful and I particularly enjoyed the masterclass! It's a wonder why it is not tagged with such things on YouTube because I did do thorough searches before my post but I didn't find this! Thanks again everyone!