TromboneChat

concert band/wind band.

Is there a (roughly) preferred ratio of trumpets to trombones and trombones to baritones in a concert-type band? (a regular band comprised of wind instruments and percussion, no strings, that plays a mixed repertoire).

For that matter, how many clarinets, saxes, and flutes should there be? (in relation to trumpets)? And tubas?

One per part for brass, especially if the trumpets are playing trumpet parts on C instruments. If the composer didn't write out a bunch of clarinet parts, you may need to double the two or three parts they wrote. Clarinets seem to be the only instrument that needs doubling in a wind ensemble, and only if the composer didn't indicate that to begin with (the same should have the exact instrumentation the composer wanted), yes, you might need a lot of clarinets. Maybe at the highest levels, clarinets can project enough with only one per part. It seems to work in orchestras.

Adding more doubles to the parts in the brass section lets more people have fun, but it's a sure fire way to exponentially increase the need for clarinets.... And that compounds other problems like intonation.

The problem is that there's a lot of wind band music out there that doesn't follow the "standard" instrumentation...

For me? Four trombones, two baritones/euphoniums, and six (maybe seven) trumpets. While certainly not the standard, there are a lot of pieces with four trombone parts. Likewise, it's not uncommon to see three (or even four) cornet parts and two trumpet parts. Four horns and two tubas (there usually only one tuba part, but split parts aren't uncommon).

For balance's sake, you'll need at least two per part in the flutes and clarinets; I'd probably go with three per part (usually two flute parts and three clarinet parts). Use ONE of the first flutes on piccolo and one of the first clarinets on Eb when there's a part. One per part in the saxes and oboes. Two bassoons. Two bass clarinets with one playing contrabass when appropriate.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:28 pmMaybe at the highest levels, clarinets can project enough with only one per part. It seems to work in orchestras.

I think a lot of that is the way the music is scored in a symphony orchestra vs. a wind band. Orchestra composers and arrangers are perfectly willing to thin out the instrumentation so that one clarinet can be heard. Wind band music seems to insist on having the entire ensemble playing pads behind whatever section has the melody.

Most of the community bands I play with tend to have all the trombone parts doubled (2 each, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd) and 2 Baritones.

Seems like the preferred setup of a British Brass Band is one trombone on each part (sometimes with a double on 1st), 2 Euphoniums, and 2 Baritones (these are actually different instruments).

In very large ensembles you might want two clarinets for each trombone (e.g. with 4 1st Clarinets you need 2 1st Trombones). Then again, most community bands are "take all comers". One I played in was 25% flutes.

If you must double the trombones because someone will cry about not getting to play, double the 2nd part.

JohnL, yup. We both agree that the clarinets should be doubled across the board. Sometimes the score even indicates how many should be on a part.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:44 pm If you must double the trombones because someone will cry about not getting to play, double the 2nd part.

...

I'm just reporting what I've observed in Brass Band competitions in Australia and New Zealand.

When I need to apportion parts to more than 3 players in a band, I usually take the best 3 and make them Principal 1st, Principal 2nd, and Principal 3rd. Then I distribute the parts to whomever can play them. This way I have at least one good player on each part.

I just checked a couple Youtube performances of "The President's Own" Marine Band. They performed with 8 trumpets, 3 trombones, 2 baritones, and 13 clarinets.

The Youtube of the Air Force Marching Band performance I watched had 9 trombones and 14 trumpets I lost track of the clainets). Without knowing much about it, my guess would be in an outdoors venue, more low brass would be needed to balance with the trumpets than what would be needed in an indoor environment ((with helpful walls)).

Based on this small sample size, it appears that with military bands, it sure seems like there a quite a few more trumpets than trombones, perhaps at least 2 to 1 in an indoor concert setting.

My guess is there are several folks here with military band experience. I defer.

I presume the high ratio of trumpets to trombones is in the hope that one of them will hit the right note.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:07 pm I presume the high ratio of trumpets to trombones is in the hope that one of them will hit the right note.

A little snarky, Robert!

Obviously you have never seen or heard "The President's Own" Marine Band. These are fantastic musicians, most of whom are high-level conservatory graduates, many with master's degree. I expect the trumpets don't hit very many wrong notes.

By the way, the ensemble also includes percussion, flutes, and (in concert settings) oboes.

(well, I enjoyed it, Robert)

((my son plays trumpet for ND's National Guard Band. Every time I get a chance to hear a military band, I take it.))

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:20 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:44 pm If you must double the trombones because someone will cry about not getting to play, double the 2nd part.

...

I'm just reporting what I've observed in Brass Band competitions in Australia and New Zealand.

When I need to apportion parts to more than 3 players in a band, I usually take the best 3 and make them Principal 1st, Principal 2nd, and Principal 3rd. Then I distribute the parts to whomever can play them. This way I have at least one good player on each part.

That is a great policy. I think you need one "best" player per part. If you need to start handing out parts to other players who want to participate, my thought is to start with the second part. I think usually having more support on the interesting harmonies that crop up in the second part will make for a better section than everyone on first and the leftovers on the other parts. If you need more doubles, I'd beef up the third part next. Then first. But if you got doubles on every part... Maybe just switch out who is playing on what pieces.

PaulT wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:45 pm I just checked a couple Youtube performances of "The President's Own" Marine Band. They performed with 8 trumpets, 3 trombones, 2 baritones, and 13 clarinets.

The Youtube of the Air Force Marching Band performance I watched had 9 trombones and 14 trumpets I lost track of the clainets). Without knowing much about it, my guess would be in an outdoors venue, more low brass would be needed to balance with the trumpets than what would be needed in an indoor environment ((with helpful walls)).

Based on this small sample size, it appears that with military bands, it sure seems like there a quite a few more trumpets than trombones, perhaps at least 2 to 1 in an indoor concert setting.

There are 8 trumpets because the are probably 4 trumpet parts, and four cornet parts. Or there are 3 of each and they have one part doubled on each instrument type, even though they are likely all playing trumpets. That is ideal.

This is the practice in every military band I've played with, though we are lucky if we have even 5 trumpets -- no band other than the DC bands has enough trumpet MTOE slots to cover all the parts.

Amateur wind/concert bands are quite common here.
Most bands strive to have 6-8 trumpets, 4-5 trombones, 2-3 basses (2Bb and 1Eb), 2-3 Euphonia, 4-5 horns, 4 clarinets per section +2 solo and 1 Eb, 2 bass clarinets, 2-3 flutes + 1 piccolo, 2 bassoons, 2 oboes + 1 English horn, 2 alto saxes, 2 tenor saxes 1 baritone sax, 4 percussionists. Optional: 1-2 double basses, contrabassoon, contrabass clarinets, bass sax, harp, piano. The optional parts are rarely used in the scores, and if they're needed some pro players are usually added the last rehearsal.

The large bulk of clarinets is often the problematic part. Most bands have like 6 flutes and 10 saxes which completely throws the balance off from time to time.

For a good amateur concert band I agree with 6 trumpets and 4 trombone parts. While 3 and 3 is probably the most common scoring, pieces with 4 trombones are really not that uncommon, nor are pieces with 4, 5 or 6 trumpet and/or cornet parts. Concert band concerts can also be quite taxing, especially amateur bands playing advanced repertoire, so I think it's also just a good idea to have enough players that you can give your principals a break sometimes and have them play a lower part.

2 tubas is kind of mandatory, because split parts are so common and the best bands have a pyramid-shaped sound concept IMO, and you go a long way with that extra support (3 tubas is even better!). You need 2 euphoniums, but you don't need more that that.

Clarinet doublings, since it's been mentioned: I like 1 Eb, 2 on first, 3-4 on second and 4-5 on third, with one alto (if you can even have one) and two basses. You really don't need more than two on first but the lower parts can always take as much support as is available.

When I played in a European wind ensemble around here, we carried four trumpets and four flugels, three trombones, one or two euphs and one or two tenor horns. I don't remember the other sections.

It really made sense to separate trumpets and flugels, or trumpets and cornets in a more American wind ensemble, but the other community bands around here seem to consider them interchangeable. With 15 or 20 trumpets of course they are interchangeable, there's no way to hear a characteristic sound.

In the community band world, it's pretty much take what you can get. We have a fairly decent distribution of parts in our band, with the exception that we have never had more than one oboe and only rarely do we have a regular bassoon player, much less two.

If I were to run a community band using players that I have seen show up, I would put one trumpet per part, one lead trombone, and double trombone 2 and 3.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:44 am If I were to run a community band using players that I have seen show up, I would put one trumpet per part, one lead trombone, and double trombone 2 and 3.

I play first in most community bands I sit in. It's not because of my skill, it's because I practice enough to make it through a rehearsal. Most don't. So most bands have to double the first to have enough chops to get through an hour or so.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:44 am If I were to run a community band using players that I have seen show up, I would put one trumpet per part, one lead trombone, and double trombone 2 and 3.

I have 2nd doubled in our wind band, rather than 1st, in general. All the players can make it through a tough rehearsal or concert though, at least could last time we played!