TromboneChat

What are the different valve tunings for f contra and what are their advanteges?

Kind of a loaded question. I'll share my setup.

I play on a Kanstul Contra tuned in F/C/Db/AA. The advantage of this is that the entire instrument (open and valves) is a perfect 4th below a typical Bass Trombone (Bb/F/Gb/D). This helps with muscle memory and when you are switching between the instruments. There are other tuning setups that have advantages as well. I believe this makes the most sense since most folks who play on Contra come from a Bass Trombone.

Low F# can be a long reach depending on your instrument. Otherwise, I really like this setup.

Johnstad wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:10 am Kind of a loaded question. I'll share my setup.

I play on a Kanstul Contra tuned in F/C/Db/AA. The advantage of this is that the entire instrument (open and valves) is a perfect 4th below a typical Bass Trombone (Bb/F/Gb/D). This helps with muscle memory and when you are switching between the instruments. There are other tuning setups that have advantages as well. I believe this makes the most sense since most folks who play on Contra come from a Bass Trombone.

Low F# can be a long reach depending on your instrument. Otherwise, I really like this setup.

For those of us that are dedicated F/D dependent players, would John's tuning make sense, or is there another tuning combination that aligns better for a dependent player.

Joe Stanko

JoeStanko wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:46 am For those of us that are dedicated F/D dependent players, would John's tuning make sense, or is there another tuning combination that aligns better for a dependent player.

Joe Stanko

The other common (actually more common) contra tuning is F/D/Bb. I can't wrap my head around it but a lot of players (coming from both dependent and independent) do great with it.

The "other" tuning (there are more, of course) is German tuning, usually tuned now as F/D/BBb/AAb.

The advantage of this is that the instrument presents like a bass trombone in another way. With open and 1st valve, it's like an Bb/F/D bass trombone with 1 valve down (F) and 2 valves down (D). All of those positions are the same, i.e. low C is in "4th."

The low notes G and Gb are also farther in, as well as more flexibility with 4th position notes with the D valve. The big tradeoff is probably G and Gb at the bottom of the bass staff, which are pretty far out, as well as thee transition from low B to Bb- same as a normal bass trombone, basically 5 positions.

Older German tuning is F/Eb/BBb/AA, which is mostly just worse. I'm not sure my instrument would even be playable that way (and it was in that configuration before!).

I think either tuning is fine. You'll have to spend serious time learning to read in F anyway, so any perceived difficulty with a new valve tuning is wrapped up in that struggle. I'd choose an instrument that I liked playing rather than one with a specific tuning first, if you get what I mean.

I've noticed some tunings so that you don't need to use a handle on the slide. I think this may have been the rationale on Burgerbob's older German setup.

I don't play contra, but I would think that an F/C/B/"whatever that makes" with a long slide with a handle would be my choice.

I know some who play the double slide Mirafone (either in BBb or CC with a single trigger) although these can be somewhat clumsy.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:37 am I've noticed some tunings so that you don't need to use a handle on the slide. I think this may have been the rationale on Burgerbob's older German setup.

I don't play contra, but I would think that an F/C/B/"whatever that makes" with a long slide with a handle would be my choice.

I know some who play the double slide Mirafone (either in BBb or CC with a single trigger) although these can be somewhat clumsy.

I have a JinBao Miraphone BBb copy which is quite good - the double slide moves well. I had a Shires B3.5L installed - John Stork modified a Bach 30CB mouthpiece and I have a Black contra mouthpiece. Limited range and volume but it's very playable within its limits. The F contra is much more user-friendly so that's something I'm considering.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:37 am I've noticed some tunings so that you don't need to use a handle on the slide. I think this may have been the rationale on Burgerbob's older German setup.

No modern contras have handles. Since the valves mean you don't really need anything past 5th (in the case of my horn, 5th is beyond human reach!), there's no need. These are not instruments for the Bartok gliss.

I borrowed one in F/D/Bb a while back and it started to make a lot of sense to me for the reasons Burgerbob gives above. When we placed an order for a new Markus Leuchter for BU, I opted for that tuning.

Well, I started out on a Latzch contra in F/Eb/Bb/ ? ...the German system. Got me through a few ring cycles....then I got to design my own with Mick Rath...modular, with multiple valve tuning options. I use mine in F, then Eb...so I go down positions 12345 on the slide then positions 6&7 are 4 &5 with the Eb valve down....then the big valve in B, as that lets lots of stuff line up and gets me Gb at the end of the slide....nobody else uses this system and nor should they....It's mad.....but it works for me.

Chris

I have a Jürgen Voigt on order tuned in F/C/Db/AA. The reasons for that have already been mentioned above... for my mind, it works to just transpose the entire instrument down a 4th from my bass setup.

My experience is on F/C/Db/A on both the Glassl (owned by my orchestra) and my "Proof of Concept" horn that I built some years ago. (I may post pics of that at some point)

I found that tuning to be very organic, and easy to swap between Bb bass and F contra (which I often had to do with the repertoire the company performed)

The Glassl did have a long slide, with handle, so the Bartok gliss was easy. I usually played the horn without the handle though, (never played the Bartok "in anger") as the valve.tuning allowed a pretty easy low F# on the slide.

Please post Matt. It would be great to see pics.

I spent about a year with a Thein that was F/D/Bb, and managed to relate those pitches to bass trombone partials enough to get around.

That said, having spent many years since playing tubas in C and Bb, I think keeping the relationship the same as bass trombone makes a lot of sense. F/C/Db would be my order.

Andrew

I'm one of the few that would prefer to have a contra with a full slide and a (removable) handle. Bass sackbut does weird things to your brain.

I have a Dillion contra at home which is in F/D/Bb and at school we have a Kanstul in F/Db/C and with my personal experience, I much prefer European tuning because it's more flexible with the 4th position and the low F# isn't way far out.

I will note that the Wessex Contrabass comes with alternate tuning slides - so you can set up the horn in either F/C/Db - or F/D/Bb (NOTE: The order of the keys shows Open horn - First (thumb) valve - Second (finger) valve - the long loop for the Bb goes on the SECOND valve loop). I have been using the D / Bb slides - and am finding it mostly makes sense for the reasons mentioned above (I come from a history with a bass in Bb/F/G/Eb - so for me the D valve feels a lot like using the G valve on my bass - as long as I remember that is under my thumb now). I do think that, even though you can choose which tuning to use with this horn, you will probably want to choose one fairly soon and stick with it - switching back and forth between the tunings just throws too many new things in the mix all at the same time.

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:41 pm I'm one of the few that would prefer to have a contra with a full slide and a (removable) handle. Bass sackbut does weird things to your brain.

Yes! I'd love a horn in low D with a handle and a Bb valve.
But of course F/D/Bb with a handle, also a big yes!!!

There is a maker who makes long slide handled Contras. HELMUT Voigt. I was suprised to see some pictures yesterday of their various models, including an Opera model short coiled bell section and 7 position slides. Tuning was strange F, Eb, C, BBb which technicall works with a handle but darn F# would be far out

I've been playing Thein contrabass trombones for the better part of 20 years now, always pitched in F/D/B flat. Having discussed the tuning at length with Ben van Dijk when I first started out, I understood the relationship between the B flat/F/D dependent bass trombone I play (back then, a Rath, today an Elkhart Conn 62H) and this was quite a few years before the advent of the newer F/C/D flat tuning. For what it's worth, the tuning system you pick is of nominal importance. What is essential is the sound the instrument makes. No contrabass trombone is ever going to be easy work, so whichever tuning system you choose is but one element in the mix. Mouthpiece selection is just as important, but the key to a really good technique on the contrabass trombone is being able to navigate the notes at the bottom to the middle of the bass staff, where a lot of valve work is necessary.