TromboneChat

I’ve been using my 3B a lot more recently and i’ve just been thinking the more i play it the better i will sound. This has not happened, i sound like a 6th grader. I just sound terrible. My store got in a shires MD and MD+ and so i had to try them out. I sound so much better. Like, not just new horn syndrome. I genuinely could pull off lead, which i could definitely not do with my 3B. I don’t have the money for the shires, but some people prefer a 3B over a shires. So.... why does my 3B suck. Or is it just me? Is there anything i could do to make my horn better? The slotting on the shires is just so much better, instead of having to search for a note, it just speaks. My 3B also sounds very harsh, again, maybe it’s me, but i just sound so much better on the shires. I would really like to make my 3b a fun horn to play, especially since i’m using it so much more now.

What mouthpiece?

There are dozens of reasons why your particular 3b might not play well. Like anything else you can find great examples of a horn and total dogs. If I were you I’d try more 3bs to get a baseline of what a typical example plays like.

If possible, have somebody you trust as a player, like a teacher or local pro try out your horn and see what they say. If there’s something wrong with your horn they will feel it too.

Maybe you got spoiled playing bass. I may have as well. I recently picked up a King 3B/F and had some trouble finding a good voice on it. I finally did, but I thought it odd b/c the last time I played a King 3B/F, I sounded pretty good on it. That was a while ago, though and it was before switching to a large-bore and then a bass. So maybe they have their effect.

But as noted above, it could be the horn.

A good 3B is great. Some are a bit lighter and less user friendly... my current 3B/F is in this camp. If you overfund it with air or let the aperture creep open at all, all the core disappears. Thankfully they aren't ultra mouthpiece sensitive, so you can find something that works for you.

Shires MD and MD+ are very user friendly like most Shires small tenors, more forgiving in general.

Maybe the horn is not made well, but somehow I doubt it.

There is no way to answer this without a video of you playing it and the MD side by side.

Any variation of player/horn/mouthpiece combination can be a winner or loser. I have NEVER found a King instrument that has worked for me. I have owned (and sold) many Kings over the years. Most notably, a King 4BF that I struggled with in college. I don't know exactly what is was....tight leadpipe, nickel slide, smaller bore F-attachment, all of the above?!? Anyway, the moment I switched over to a Bach, everything started to click better.

In general, all the King models feel very tight for me. From the 2B all the way to the 7B/8B models, they just play with a lot of resistance and I cannot "let loose" and play freely on them. My sound is always edgy on a King and I crack notes frequently. I really think the common denominator on King trombones is the tighter leadpipes. However, I will be the first to admit that I am extremely sensitive and particular about how horns play for me. If I go to a trombone show, I can pick up one horn and sound terrific. Then, I might walk three feet over to the next horn and sound like a poorly trained 5th grader. Well....that might be exaggerating a bit, but I am very sensitive to having the proper equipment.

I think it is very important for trombonists to know their "equipment spectrum of success." Some players can pick up ANYTHING and sound fantastic....thus, their "equipment spectrum of success" is very wide. They appear to have very little problem switching between a broad array of trombones. I have always been envious of those players! My "equipment spectrum of success" is very narrow. I feel like I am only capable of playing "very well" on about 15% of the trombone equipment that is out there. If you hear me when I am holding the right equipment, watch out. If you catch me playing on equipment outside of my spectrum.....you won't be too impressed. All of the King models are definitely outside of my spectrum.

Elow, you sound like you might be sensitive to equipment like I am. If the King 3B doesn't work for you.....get away from it. Just because hundreds of other trombonists think that the 3B is the greatest horn ever invented doesn't mean it will work for you. Life is too short to play on a trombone that argues with you! Every time I hear somebody singing the praises of a King trombone, I giggle and think...... "I'm very glad you like it and it works for you. For me, those trombones suck!"

Before you give up on it, though, you might want to be sure it is not a real problem with the horn.

I recall a particular older 3B that went through a few owners. Played like there was something caught in the tubing. This generation of 3B had a two-piece lead-pipe. One of the previous owners had run a cleaning rod through and yanked the lower part of the leadpipe about a half inch down the inside of the slide. Once I got that completely back in place the horn played as well as any 3B I ever played.

I recall another 3B I came across that played similarly. The owner finally ran a snake (like a Brass Saver) through the outer slide. Well, he TRIED to do that. Failed at first. Once the crud was scoured out of the main slide crook the horn played quite well.

IIRC you have access to some repair facilities. Can you use them to make sure the horn does NOT have any gross defects? Along the same lines, there are cheap USB endoscopes available on Amazon and eBay that are GREAT for checking the conditions inside tubes. If you get one with a right-angle mirror (and remove the protective shipping film from the mirror) you can see every bit of the leadpipe construction. If you get one with a SHORT rigid "head" section, it will go all the way around a main slide crook.

Once you are sure the horn has not gross defects, I'm with Brian: life's too short. Find a horn that works for you.

Loaded question.

I have three 3B's. One straight in brass, one straight silver sonic and one 3B/F in brass

All are good. What I found is I need to be in very good shape to to sound good because they are not very forgiving. They can sound very brutal if not handled with a well functioning balanced emboushure. I could use it anytime in any dixiland setting and to play 'tail gate" music. It can sound brutal and "in-your-face" if anyone can understand what I mean?.To use the 3b as a classical horn or to play sophisticated jazz it needs a well formed emboushure and a balanced blow. Any 3b needs work, but after you've learned them they play well.

/Tom

I know what you mean Tom, Crazy4Tbone86 and boneagain. I took out my bass this morning for about an hour or so and then went on my King 3B/F. It is definitely much tighter and yes - very unforgiving. And I think I was right above as well; going from a wide-open large bore to the King 3B/F is a trick. But that's the nature of this beast and if we can make nice with it, I also agree that it can reward us with a distinctive sound, given that the horn is in as good a shape for playing as it ought to be.

I understand where you're coming from Elow. I normally play bass, but while in college I got a 2b+. Was a good horn. After college I put it away for a number of years. I came back to it a few years ago and discovered how difficult it was to play like I used to. I got my hands on a 3b in gold brass. Problem solved. Sold off the 2b+. Tried playing around with mouthpieces for a while on the 2b and just realized it wasn't the best fit for me anymore.

I think you must be in good shape to sound good on ANY horn. The 3B (and Kings in general) just works well for those who like more resistance. If you gravitate towards the tighter leadpipes (For example: The #1 leadpipes on the Edwards and Shires horns), you will probably do well on the Kings. I tend to use the 2.5 and 3 leadpipes on those other brands, so the standard Kings don't work for me.

I want to rescind a statement I made earlier. I did have a straight 4B that worked well for me some years back. However, it was customized with a removable leadpipe (I think I used a Shires 2.5 with it) and a Bach 42 slide crook. So, given the custom components, it really wasn't a King! I should not have sold that horn!

The big picture is that everyone has a type of horn that feels right and plays well for them. If you are experimenting with dozens of mouthpieces and practicing five hours a day and the instrument still doesn't work for you.....it is obviously a bad fit. This is especially true if you pick up a different brand with the same bore size and it works for you (Elow said the Shires MD+ instantly played much better for him).

Finding a mpc that works well on a given horn is tough enough and doubly so (pun intended) if we play more than one size/make of horn. Reportedly, Doug Elliott has a matching set of mpc components that he devised for a King 3B. Perhaps someone with eyes on this thread who uses it could comment further.

Name spelling edits...

I used to have a 3B that I used just for testing backbores. My #3 style backbore is what works well on a 3B. The rim and cup are still pretty much up to the player's preference.

I would like to comment on the statement above "If you are experimenting with dozens of mouthpieces and practicing five hours a day and the instrument still doesn't work for you.....it is obviously a bad fit."
That's usually the case of someone who is playing a mouthpiece inner rim diameter that's wrong for the player. I see it over and over. A lot of problems go away when the rim size is right for embouchure function.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:12 am I used to have a 3B that I used just for testing backbores. My #3 style backbore is what works well on a 3B. The rim and cup are still pretty much up to the player's preference.

I can attest to Doug's #3 style backbore on a 3B. Mine is incredible with an LT101/LTE/E3* combo.
Having said that my 70's 3B is a killer horn

What year was this 3B made?
Is it a UMI era horn?

Doug,

Have you measured the apertures of leadpipes (not mouthpiece backbores, I know you have measured those!) for a variety of .508-.509 bore horns? I have dozens of leadpipes in all of the sizes except for the .508-.509 horns. I am wondering how the throat of a King 3B leadpipe compares to other horns in that bore size like the Bach 16M, Jupiter 1634.

I know that the King leadpipes in many models are considerably smaller than many of their competitors. I am not home right now, so I do not have access to my measurement charts. I remember that the 606 is smaller than other .500 bore horns, the 607 is smaller than other .525 bore horns and the 4B and the King bass bones are CONSIDERABLY smaller than the average .547 and .562 bore horns. If I remember correctly, the 4B leadpipe is about .025 smaller and the 6B/7B/8B leadpipes are over .030 smaller than comparable models made by other brands. I know that the aperture of a leadpipe is only one factor that contributes to how a leadpipe plays, but that is a stark difference.

If the 3B leadpipe is on the small side and your #3 backbore is a good match for many players on a 3B, do players find that your #3 backbore is too open on other .508-.509 models that might have less resistance in the leadpipe? After all, finding the correct balance of resistance is key to a trombone player being happy with their equipment.

From old measurements I have made of .508 bore leadpipes (only one sample of each):
King 3B .423
Bach 16M .412

H8 Burt Herrick style (from Kanstul's list): .422

Bach 16 dual bore (2 samples): .412, .424

The King is actually on the big side. But there's a lot more to a design than just the venturi size.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:38 pm

If the 3B leadpipe is on the small side and your #3 backbore is a good match for many players on a 3B, do players find that your #3 backbore is too open on other .508-.509 models that might have less resistance in the leadpipe? After all, finding the correct balance of resistance is key to a trombone player being happy with their equipment.

i use the same 3 backbore setup on my 3B/F (which has a Brassark 32h leadpipe) and my 16M. That same setup also felt great on the stock leadpipe in another 3B I had recently as well.

My Duo Gravis and 8B King bass trombones have recessed leadpipes [ 1 3/8" to 1 1/2"] so that the end of the mouthpiece abuts the beginning of the leadpipe providing a smooth transition from the interior of the mouthpiece shank to the interior of the leadpipe. Do King tenors also follow this practice or is it just a feature of King bass trombones ? Inquiring minds need to know !

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:27 pm FYI, I measured some King leadpipes. A 2B 2-piece leadpipe is .410 venturi, which is the same venturi size as the 1-piece 1938 pipe I copied for the model I make. A 3B 2-piece leadpipe is .380, so MUCH smaller than a 2B pipe. I don't have a 1-piece 3B pipe to measure.

...from the archives - very different from Doug's sample.

2bobone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:52 pm My Duo Gravis and 8B King bass trombones have recessed leadpipes [ 1 3/8" to 1 1/2"] so that the end of the mouthpiece abuts the beginning of the leadpipe providing a smooth transition from the interior of the mouthpiece shank to the interior of the leadpipe. Do King tenors also follow this practice or is it just a feature of King bass trombones ? Inquiring minds need to know !

Yes, same 2-piece deal, with a machined clearance at the bottom of the receiver into which the leadpipe is soldered. I don't think the transition is any smoother than with a 1-piece leadpipe - there's still the step down from the shank, and you can't have the end of the shank directly contacting the upper edge of the leadpipe as then there'd be zero tolerance for wear or any variation in insertion depth.

In all the leadpipes I have measured (admittedly not that many, but all bore sizes) I have never seen one as small as .380

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:04 pm In all the leadpipes I have measured (admittedly not that many, but all bore sizes) I have never seen one as small as .380

In the thread from which Brad's post came, there's a photo of a 2-piece 3B pipe and it does look seriously narrow. FWIW, the 'King-style' Kanstul pipes are in this ballpark. (My early Rath R1 was .390... everything else on that horn was enormous, and I think the leadpipe was a (not entirely successful) attempt to keep things vaguely controllable.)

I don't know where I copied this from, probanly the Kanstul website.
Kanstul Vintage Replica Trombone Leadpipes

Model Bore Venturi Specs & Vintage Threaded? Unthreaded?
JW1 .491" .383" Jiggs Whigham style pipe made for optional .491" bore 1602/4 Y Special Order
2B1 .491" .393" 2B+ style pipe for 1602, developed for Alan Kaplan Y Special Order
AK1 .491" .405" King style pipe for 1602, developed for Alan Kaplan Y Special Order
S .500" .414" Standard tenor trombone pipe, Benge/Nova style, Les Benedict's favorite, similar to Bach LT16M pipe Y Y
W6 .500" .414" Williams 6 style Y Y
H6 .500" .403" Burt Herrick style, originally made for Williams 6, medium throat - NEW Y Y
H16 .500" .407" Burt Herrick style, originally made for Bach 16, medium throat - NEW Y Y
JW .500" .383" Jiggs Whigham style pipe Y Y
2B .500" .393" 2B+ style pipe for 1602, developed for Alan Kaplan Y Y
AK .500" .405" King style pipe for 1602, developed for Alan Kaplan Y Y
H8 .508" .422" Burt Herrick style, should fit Shires .508", King 3B, Bach LT16M, Getzen 1050, Yamaha 691 - NEW Y Y
36 .525" .409" Bach 36 style Y Y
ML .547" .475" Minick Legit, Conn style - threaded only Y N
MO .547" .480" Minick Open Legit, Conn style - threaded only Y N
BB .547" .477" Mt. Vernon Bach 42- threaded only Y N
8 .547" .442" Vintage Conn 8HSP Y Y
C .562" .498" Minick Commercial Y Y
L .562" .493" Minick Legit Y Y
OL .562" .501" Minick Open Legit Y Y
H .562" .478" Burt Herrick Commercial Y Y
GR .562" .490" George Roberts model, like Conn 70H pipe, tighter throat, fast expansion, shorter length - this pipe works well with the Kanstul GR mouthpiece, which fits in further, so the end of the shank is close to the venturi of the leadpipe. Y Y
GR2 .562" .479" What George currently uses, Burt Herrick design, tighter but more stable than the GR pipe Y Y
62 .562" .494" Elkhart Conn 62H Y Y
B .562" .499" Bach 50 Y Y
169 .562" .500" Holton 169 style, made for Mike Suter Y Y

OK, I'm back home now and have access to some of my measurements. Brad's measurements for the two-piece 3-B pipe makes more sense to me. I just double-checked (measured today) two separate two-piece pipes for the King 607/608 model that I have here in my shop parts bin. The venturi are .395 and .397 inch.......keep in mind that the 607/608 is a .525 bore instrument. Those pipes are about .020 to .030 smaller than the dozen or so other .525 pipes I have that are mostly in the .415 to .425 range.

It doesn't surprise me that there is such a huge disparity in leadpipe measurements. It also wouldn't surprise me if all the 3Bs I have ever played had a .380 leadpipe venturi. They all just felt tiny and very tight to me. Maybe I just need to get me one of those King 3Bs that has a .423 venturi! The difference between .380 and .423 is huge....that could be a game changer!

.043 difference sounds like a major manufacturing error to me.

That Kanstul chart pops up every now and then during leadpipe discussions. Most of the measurements on that chart make sense to me. I only have discrepancies with a couple of measurements.......

Bach 36 pipes can vary greatly....from about .406 to about .418 inch. Personally, I prefer the Bach 36 pipes that are on the larger end of that spectrum. I have always wondered what the venturi was for Brad and Noah's MV36 pipe because it is supposed to be more open.

Most of the 8H and 88H pipes that I have measured have been on the large side of large-bore tenor spectrum. Many of them are in the .480 - .482 inch range. I always wondered if the .442 venturi listed for the Vintage Conn H was a typo.

Anyway......getting back on topic now. For the OP, it appears that there could be huge differences between the venturi of 3B leadpipes. One could speculate that this is due to vintage of the instrument, one-piece versus two-piece venturi (also a matter of vintage) or quality control during the manufacturing process. Nontheless, it appears that not all 3Bs are created equal. Then again, that is true of any model from any brand of musical instrument.

2bobone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:52 pm My Duo Gravis and 8B King bass trombones have recessed leadpipes [ 1 3/8" to 1 1/2"] so that the end of the mouthpiece abuts the beginning of the leadpipe providing a smooth transition from the interior of the mouthpiece shank to the interior of the leadpipe. Do King tenors also follow this practice or is it just a feature of King bass trombones ? Inquiring minds need to know !

Yes, same 2-piece deal, with a machined clearance at the bottom of the receiver into which the leadpipe is soldered. I don't think the transition is any smoother than with a 1-piece leadpipe - there's still the step down from the shank, and you can't have the end of the shank directly contacting the upper edge of the leadpipe as then there'd be zero tolerance for wear or any variation in insertion depth.
[/quote]

Not quite sure we're talking the same things here. The Duo Gravis and 7/8B pipes were "trumpet style." The inner bore of the mouthpiece does NOT step down into the beginning of the leadpipe. McCracken's design calls for a small gap at the end of the mouthpiece that is pretty much acoustically transparent at trombone frequencies. It does NOT quite touch on new horns, because that means the MP would eventually not seat properly as the taper wears in over the years. The gap is, no surprise, half as big in trumpets.

The tenor two piece (which I do not think is on ALL King tenors... I know I have not seen it even on ALL 3B tenors. I would not be surprised if there were MORE than one type of two piece tenor leadpipe.

All I know for sure is that when the inner part of the one I played had snuck down the inner slide, the 3B played like it had a sock in it. After a quick shove I was able to handle the lead book well enough to fill in for a few weeks.

FWIW, the larger the leadpipe throat, for me, the MORE resistance I perceive. It's all about balance. Everyone here is hung up on the leadpipe, lol, but that probably ain't the problem.

This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

Throw it against a wall. That may help?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:43 pm FWIW, the larger the leadpipe throat, for me, the MORE resistance I perceive. It's all about balance. Everyone here is hung up on the leadpipe, lol, but that probably ain't the problem.

This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Based on my experience transitioning to playing more tenor after mostly bass:

Tenor requires less air and more finesse than bass. If you try to play a tenor like a bass it won't sound good.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:43 pm ...This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

Okay, so what of it? Lol lace up your M789 issue skates and take your bae around the rink a few times while I have fun with an old tune I did as a test on a vintage King 3B/F I bought recently. So rip me a new one b/c I stink and then smoke 'em if you got them - but remember to field strip the butt afterwards.



Edit for live performance.

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:54 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:43 pm ...This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

Okay, so what of it? Lol lace up your M789 issue skates and take your bae around the rink a few times while I have fun with an old tune I did as a test on a vintage King 3B/F I bought recently. So rip me a new one b/c I stink and then smoke 'em if you got them - but remember to field strip the butt afterwards.

Good one lol. FWIW, the 3B sounds fine.

Question to OP - what's the lacquer look like? I had a sterling 3B that I could never get 100% comfortable with. A previous owner had put the bell into hot water to clean the horn, and strips of lacquer came off, in an almost striped pattern. I stripped the rest of the lacquer from the bell, mostly to make it look better when I had a sale lined up. I thought it improved that particular instrument a lot. Before there were good sounding notes with others that seemed dull and less centred. It felt much more even after I removed the remaining lacquer, and the buyer was happy, as was his teacher - a top jazz trombonist in Canada. Normally, I don't think that lacquer - no lacquer makes that much difference, but this one had such a strange pattern of the two finishes on the bell. Making it consistent helped a lot. FYI.

Jim Scott

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:43 pm FWIW, the larger the leadpipe throat, for me, the MORE resistance I perceive. It's all about balance. Everyone here is hung up on the leadpipe, lol, but that probably ain't the problem.

This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

Not hung up on leadpipe dimensions. I'm hung up on how badly ONE version of 3B leadpipe can mess up playability if it is displaced. That is a RARE occurance, but it does happen. And when it happens, NO one can get decent sounds of of the horn. Depending on just how far the offending part is displaced, the horn DOES remain kinda playable.

So, my priority would be:
1) check the horn for defects (leaky spit valve, displaced lead-pipe)
2) check for appropriate air application
3) go shopping

but that's just me.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:43 pm FWIW, the larger the leadpipe throat, for me, the MORE resistance I perceive. It's all about balance. Everyone here is hung up on the leadpipe, lol, but that probably ain't the problem.

This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

Haha

I often question where all the bad horns are? I have very few bad horns. The ones I'm thinking of have obvious defects. A slide that is broken (in half), leaky valves, have had bad repair works, are dirty, cracked leadpipes. Most horns are good, but you need to adopt to the horn. If you seek a certain horn then all horns that not suits those demands are bad ones. I understand this is how most people look at horns and then there are a lot of bad horns. My horns are good horns

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:58 am
I often question where all the bad horns are? I have very few bad horns. The ones I'm thinking of have obvious defects. A slide that is broken (in half), leaky valves, have had bad repair works, are dirty, cracked leadpipes. Most horns are good, but you need to adopt to the horn. If you seek a certain horn then all horns that not suits those demands are bad ones. I understand this is how most people look at horns and then there are a lot of bad horns. My horns are good horns

/Tom

I agree. I've come across horns I didn't like, or horns that had something happen to them. but I've never come across a truly "bad" horn. What does that mean anyway? I've owned dozens of horns, most of them 50+ years old, all of them were playable, and almost all of them had something redeeming about them. For a horn to be "bad" means that there's something wrong with it. There's nothing "bad" about it, it either needs to be repaired or approached differently.

The Kanstul 760 I had was frighteningly bright. Other people like them.

I had a Selmer Bolero w/F, and a tech damaged the valve, so it played like crap. I took it back and she fixed it. It was the same mediocre trombone it was before it was damaged.

I had a Holton 181 that was just big and heavy and dull and I didn't like it. But it played ok. I'm sure there was someone out there to love that horn.

I had a Reynolds medium bore which was ok, but it wasn't a Conn. That didn't make it bad, I just didn't like it.

I currently have a mistreated Wessex super tenor that I received in bad shape. After a few little fixes, it's a light tweener horn that really barks.

Maybe the only horn I've ever had that was "bad" was a plastic trombone. It really did suck, and I'm not sure there was anything that could have fixed it. I sent it back to the company I bought it from, and that fixed that.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:58 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:43 pm FWIW, the larger the leadpipe throat, for me, the MORE resistance I perceive. It's all about balance. Everyone here is hung up on the leadpipe, lol, but that probably ain't the problem.

This whole thread is just a sounding board for people who don't know how to play 3Bs

Haha

I often question where all the bad horns are? I have very few bad horns. The ones I'm thinking of have obvious defects. A slide that is broken (in half), leaky valves, have had bad repair works, are dirty, cracked leadpipes. Most horns are good, but you need to adopt to the horn. If you seek a certain horn then all horns that not suits those demands are bad ones. I understand this is how most people look at horns and then there are a lot of bad horns. My horns are good horns

/Tom

I've said on other threads the same thing as you Tom:

Where are these bad horns at? Worst for me is the run of the mill 42, but it's not like they are broken or anything. They just don't work the same way as other large bores. Go figure one of the best large bores I ever played was a stock 42T that had the magic.

Teachers should make a point to play their students' instruments. Then you can quickly show the student that it isn't the horn, or maybe it is bad slide maintenance, or maybe it really is a leadpipe that has detached inside the slide and the horn really is broken. Elow works as a tech so I doubt the issue is something like that he could have assessed.

I wish I had all the horns back that sucked...

Elow wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:26 pm I’ve been using my 3B a lot more recently and i’ve just been thinking the more i play it the better i will sound. This has not happened, i sound like a 6th grader. I just sound terrible. My store got in a shires MD and MD+ and so i had to try them out. I sound so much better. Like, not just new horn syndrome. I genuinely could pull off lead, which i could definitely not do with my 3B. I don’t have the money for the shires, but some people prefer a 3B over a shires. So.... why does my 3B suck. Or is it just me? Is there anything i could do to make my horn better? The slotting on the shires is just so much better, instead of having to search for a note, it just speaks. My 3B also sounds very harsh, again, maybe it’s me, but i just sound so much better on the shires. I would really like to make my 3b a fun horn to play, especially since i’m using it so much more now.

Certain years of the 3B really do suck.
The worst 3B I've had I actually bought brand new in 2008. I recorded myself a bunch of times and looked at live video, and compared it to other horns I've played on. For some reason, that 3B was just "dead". It had no response to it. After a few weeks of playing on the horn, I actually took it back to the store and did a trade in. I've also played on 3B's from the 50's, 60's, 70's and even the most recent, but none of them were as bad as the 2008 3B.

We got these recent 3BFs, 2020, maybe 2019. Solder beads in the tuning crook tubes, tuning slides with rot that were frozen, the wierd choice to go back to a string linkage when the kidney one was fine -- ... I digress

They play so well and can really RIP! Two of My buddies are loving them. Great slides, great leadpipe, great valve action. And they project and bark.

I owned a lot of KIng horns from many era, from early 30ies SilverTone 2B to a 2012 4B, more than twentyfive I fear...I never played a bad one. Maybe the older ones are a bit heavy and the slide may be not the best in the world. But they sounded fine and played in the same league as Rath, Conn, Shires, Bach and and and...I sold most of them but still use three KIng because for me (as a Jazz player) they are a kind of standard horn, like the Conn 6H.
I am practising trombone everyday for over 40 years. THIS will help I swear!! More than measuring a lead pipe.

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:20 am I owned a lot of KIng horns from many era, from early 30ies SilverTone 2B to a 2012 4B, more than twentyfive I fear...I never played a bad one. Maybe the older ones are a bit heavy and the slide may be not the best in the world. But they sounded fine and played in the same league as Rath, Conn, Shires, Bach and and and...I sold most of them but still use three KIng because for me (as a Jazz player) they are a kind of standard horn, like the Conn 6H.
I am practising trombone everyday for over 40 years. THIS will help I swear!! More than measuring a lead pipe.

Elow wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:26 pm I’ve been using my 3B a lot more recently and i’ve just been thinking the more i play it the better i will sound. This has not happened, i sound like a 6th grader. I just sound terrible. My store got in a shires MD and MD+ and so i had to try them out. I sound so much better. Like, not just new horn syndrome. I genuinely could pull off lead, which i could definitely not do with my 3B. I don’t have the money for the shires, but some people prefer a 3B over a shires. So.... why does my 3B suck. Or is it just me? Is there anything i could do to make my horn better? The slotting on the shires is just so much better, instead of having to search for a note, it just speaks. My 3B also sounds very harsh, again, maybe it’s me, but i just sound so much better on the shires. I would really like to make my 3b a fun horn to play, especially since i’m using it so much more now.

If you'd like to get brave post a video of yourself playing the 3B. Then folks here would have a better idea of what you're speaking of.

There are great ones for sure !!!!!
Starting around 1954-55
To now
Some have a lot of backblow backpressure
I have a62 ss with much back blow so much that at a certain air volume it kind of ripple flows the notes kinda like slide doodling Don’t play it much
The opposite type ss just huge wide open free blowing will take anything
Dr Rodney Lancaster is strictly a 3B player w 12c. I use mostly 6-1/2s some better than others minor diffs
A 7c feel s like a cheater Sharp crisp biting
Different types of 3B
Fat mellow Jj More intense attacking Kai
Favorite of salsa players Ropy Loopy engraving
Thick dark lush yummy THE SOUND like fff
Blues type ugliest beater lotsa dirt in the sound
Combo/ Improv type. Lasted one released 1961
Nickname “Red”” thinner flare very flexi
Resonate sensitive Plays like you think intuitive
There are “NORMALS” good even playersjust nothing exciting
Then there came the 58
After playing a 60 gold brass steady
The 58 floated in. Okwhatnow
Hum this is way another planet
Stubborn hard headed I AM GONNA PLAYTHIS ORELSE
so after awhile it would stay on the trail
So the gold brass got jealous
and I thought I will dance w her again
NOTHING NADA COULDNT GET A NOTE OUT OF HER
Probably had close to 50 3Bs
Not unusual to have 10-12 around always
And maybe it’s not the horn
Maybe you outta think about sax

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:19 pm From old measurements I have made of .508 bore leadpipes (only one sample of each):
King 3B .423
Bach 16M .412

H8 Burt Herrick style (from Kanstul's list): .422

Bach 16 dual bore (2 samples): .412, .424

The King is actually on the big side. But there's a lot more to a design than just the venturi size.

I've been almost an exclusive .508 player since 2000. I've measured many venturi of 3B pipes, and .423 is by far much bigger than any of the ones I've ever measured. I've owned at least 10 3B slides (in the last 10 years) and have measured the leadpipes in most all of them. Most all have measured between .390 and .400. And most all of those have measured .392-395.

I always wind up pulling the leadpipes out of EVERY 3B that comes to me (without fail), and find many improvements using an adjusted pipe, or a differently designed pipe from the ground up. At this point I have about six .508 pipes that are my "good bunch" including one that I call home and always wind up coming back to (and dropping in other .508 makes and models to optimize what they can do.)

To the OP -- Do pay serious attention to cleaning the outer slide - and the inner slide (leadpipe)! And your mouthpiece! As commercial/jazz friendly horns go - crud in the early legs of a 3B system is a lot more impactful than in almost any other make and model (Except a 2B! (Some 2B's are down at .372!) If the pipe is old and has a ring of junk around where the mouthpiece edge hits the leadpipe, that's a second layer of restriction/choke in a system that's already quite narrow...

(..too narrow for some.)

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:01 pm If you overfund it with air or let the aperture creep open at all, all the core disappears. Thankfully they aren't ultra mouthpiece sensitive, so you can find something that works for you.

Shires MD and MD+ are very user friendly like most Shires small tenors, more forgiving in general.

This insight is solid gold - and no surprise that it comes from a gifted low low brass player and doubler - someone who has to contemplate size of aperture when holding different axes.

Aperture size and air management is critical in an unusual, extraordinary, and easily difficult way when playing at a world class level on a 3B (finesse, control, and sufficient power from low F to high F at least) with necessary speed and flexibility (meaning covering and navigating the range without taking the mouthpiece off of your face) and most of all with the right TONE (which we might say covers the urgency of Salsa, and music like Chicago all the way down to mellowness of early jazz and low intensity whole notes in the chorus of a pop ballad)....

I likely learned this backwards from BurgerBob as far as horns go - as I didn't find my embouchure and aperture for the large bore trombone until well after college and well after my jazz career began. I heard cats getting THE SOUND out of Bach 42's, which I NEVER could - and I went to take a lesson from David Loucky, who teaches at MTSU near Nashville, TN. He gets THE SOUND. I'd been very well trained to understand buzzing through and through from my advanced embrace of it under M. Dee Stewart at Inidana University. That led me to ask David to let me hear him buzz a scale. I immediately KNEW from the sound of it, from the resonance, harmonics and tone of the buzz, he was doing something vastly different from me. I asked him to buzz and pull the mouthpiece away.

And I just stared at him.
He broke the silence, saying, "Yeah, I know..."

It was inconceivable to me play a trombone (or anything) with that MUCH aperture opening.
And so I went home (much better) equipped to attempt THE SOUND....I'm still working that out when I have time.

Prior to that I'd only ever gotten THE SOUND one time in my life - and I was playing a setup that forced me to use a large aperture. I was demoing horns at the last ITA in Nashville, TN, and tried the Alessi Edwards...I was blindly chasing the big-rim trend, and tried something like an XT 105 G8 from Doug Elliott. The mouthpiece was so big that I had to use a more open embouchure (and more air, and more lip...(proper funding and real estate, I think BurgerBob would call it)). I literally scared myself when I heard the first note. THE SOUND...!

Pointing all of this back towards the .508 - I love this bore size - but 3Bs require me in the stock config to tip toe with my air, and also, what I mean to do with volume exceeds the stock 3B. I mean to be able to play lead, but also, to play over a big band without a mic, to play over a salsa band without a mic, to be bright enough in studio settings, and to fill a sanctuary with a blast that is unrivalled....and 3B's don't work for what that requies.

The two finest, most versatile 3B players I've ever heard - both play/played smaller rims, between 11C and 12C spec - and they operate in maximum wisdom regarding that amount of aperture opportunity. JJ, with a 6.5 Al'ish depth cup that supports warmth and a regal, full, crisp tone - and the other, Ozzie Melendez with a shallower C'ish cup that incites riot when you push up, brings legendary heat and intensity in a salsa/commercial setting. (A shallower cup also keeps you from overblowing, as does the smaller rim, and Ozzie can GO all day....and night...His playing routinely kept me dancing across 3 hours at the Copacabana when I was in NYC). First note I ever heard him play was to start Willie Colon's set on what I'm fairly sure was a high Eb. Brilliance, Brightness, fatness, brutally clear and deftly pointed attack and core. Literally SCARED me. Hell had broken loose! I've never forgotten the feel of hearing that note. VICIOUS. For different reasons, just as significant as my first time hearing Joe Alessi in person. Another scare and revelation...another post

I don't like 3Bs either and I've owned 2, from 1975 and 2002. They all have that "break" around F# above the staff, and high notes suddenly require much more "work" than the others. And to repeat - is your 3B clean? Bell section too? Makes a big difference on a smaller bore horn.
Kings are on the heavy side so you, like me, probably prefer a lighter and more responsive design. Why do you think Jiggs lightened the classic 2B?

RolandJBarber wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:36 pm ...

The two finest, most versatile 3B players I've ever heard - both play/played smaller rims, between 11C and 12C spec - and they operate in maximum wisdom regarding that amount of aperture opportunity. JJ, with a 6.5 Al'ish depth cup that supports warmth and a regal, full, crisp tone - and the other, Ozzie Melendez with a shallower C'ish cup that incites riot when you push up, brings legendary heat and intensity in a salsa/commercial setting. (A shallower cup also keeps you from overblowing, as does the smaller rim, and Ozzie can GO all day....and night...His playing routinely kept me dancing across 3 hours at the Copacabana when I was in NYC). First note I ever heard him play was to start Willie Colon's set on what I'm fairly sure was a high Eb. Brilliance, Brightness, fatness, brutally clear and deftly pointed attack and core. Literally SCARED me. Hell had broken loose! I've never forgotten the feel of hearing that note. VICIOUS. For different reasons, just as significant as my first time hearing Joe Alessi in person. Another scare and revelation...another post

I'm sorry I missed all of this the first time around. We need more posts like this. All I wanna do now is go find a 3b.