TromboneChat

I'm off to try out a few trombones with intent of buying one. The ones I am currently looking at are:

-Conn 88H

-Conn 88HO

-Courtois AC440BR Legend

-Courtois AC440B

-Yamaha Xeno 882O

-Yamaha Xeno 882GO

Any information on what to look out for, any instruments I should be weary of. Any problems that develop a few years down the line. These are the only ones in the shop around my budget so I have to choose of these 6. Anything about any of them would be appreciated


Thanks a lot

What has your teacher suggested? What do you currently play and why do you think you need to change before starting college?

Where are you going to study and with whom in the UK?

All are great pro horns, as you know the staple in the UK is still the 88h.... You could for the money find a good Elkie 88h

All solid options. It doesn’t harm to go any try them all, ideally with a teacher or trusted listener to give you feedback from in front of the bell.

All manufactures have some variability so it’s best to try the exact one you want to buy. Even though these are all pro level horns and priced accordingly, there can still be some inconsistencies.

With the Conn, keep an eye out whether it it the standard weight bell or thinwall. You may be surprised which you prefer, good to try both if possible. Maybe pay special attention to the slide action on the Conn.

I haven’t owned a Courtois AC440 or Yamaha 882 so can’t say anything from long-term usage, the examples of both I tried seemed very well put together from a brief test.

Are you considering new, used or both?

There are bricks and mortar shops in the UK who sell new and used instruments online also. Some (or hopefully all!) reputable shops also offer trial periods so you can try in real-world situations.

As with all trombones, try all of them. You never know which one will work the best for you unless you're playing it. It wouldn't hurt to have someone else listening in either.

I also hear the 88H is very popular over in Europe, but make sure a new 88H doesn't have any huge issues in quality. I heard Conn-Selmer is kind of "middle-of-the-road" in terms of quality control. I'm unsure about Courtois. Make sure the horn in question you're trying isn't a dog, and you should be alright.

I will say, I admire Yamaha's quality and durability. It's up to preference, but even my Advantage, which is an entry level horn, held up well after being abused for five years in grade school. As far as I know, the Yamaha is probably one of the more durable horns you can get. If you're ordering one of these horns as well, I heard Yamahas play very consistently from horn to horn.

tldr: Make sure whatever horn you get doesn't suck. I like Yamaha a lot, but what makes you sound good and is thrown together with some semblance of quality is probably the best.

I heard Courtios is like a Bach in construction.


But it looks like you got a good selection to try from.

My money is on a Conn but I've been called weird so...???

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:15 pm I heard Courtios is like a Bach in construction.


But it looks like you got a good selection to try from.

My money is on a Conn but I've been called weird so...???

AC420 is the 42 clone-ish

AC440 is the 88 clone-ish

The Courtois offerings didn't wow me with how they played but I was really distracted by how impossible they are to hold.

The 88H is a classic. Recent ones I've seen had solder that was beaded up inside the tuning slides, but the parts are all beautiful. The narrow slide is not for everyone.

The recent yamahas have had really heavy bells and it seemed like the bells were soldered. There is something about an unsoldered bell that I prefer. You won't see anything like a bad build or solder beads on a Yamaha.

You gotta really try em all, but be especially careful with the cortois to check how it fits in your hand.

where did you try the Courtois?

timbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:32 pm where did you try the Courtois?

ATW. The dude selling them didn't believe me when I said that the horn didn't fit in my hand, even though he was next to me, my hand was on the slide grip, and I was demonstrating how my hand would have been cut by the outer slide since it was touching the inner slide tube whIle holding it.

Yea, I have that problem with my 62H. And my Bach 16 too. Doesn't keep me from playing them however.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:02 am

timbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:32 pm where did you try the Courtois?

ATW. The dude selling them didn't believe me when I said that the horn didn't fit in my hand, even though he was next to me, my hand was on the slide grip, and I was demonstrating how my hand would have been cut by the outer slide since it was touching the inner slide tube whIle holding it.

Put your middle finger on the other side of the slide brace (Doug Yeo wrote something advocating this grip many years ago). I don't think I've encountered a single trombone that wouldn't catch my hand if I used the grip they taught us in middle school with all fingers below the brace.

Based on the ones listed, try the Getzen 4147IB. Let me know what you think!

Two thoughts:

1. Pay attention to comfort and ergonomics. Your ability to play a horn will improve as you get used to it, but the basics of dimension and balance will not.

2. Do not trust your ears. This is not a new idea, but it's been reinforced for me recently, and I may even do a recording to explain why. But I think one of the differences between horns is as much with the feedback they give as the sound that comes out. A bell at the right distance from you ear might sound great - or awful - but a listener might have a totally different take. Plastic trombones in particular can give very different feedback than a brass trombone that doesn't sound a whole lot different. So take a friend who can listen, and maybe record it too.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:53 am Two thoughts:

1. Pay attention to comfort and ergonomics. Your ability to play a horn will improve as you get used to it, but the basics of dimension and balance will not.

2. Do not trust your ears. This is not a new idea, but it's been reinforced for me recently, and I may even do a recording to explain why. But I think one of the differences between horns is as much with the feedback they give as the sound that comes out. A bell at the right distance from you ear might sound great - or awful - but a listener might have a totally different take. Plastic trombones in particular can give very different feedback than a brass trombone that doesn't sound a whole lot different. So take a friend who can listen, and maybe record it too.

Yes, I believe this holds true for the majority of players. Myself, I couldn't care less if someone else likes my sound or not. I play for my own amusement, so I have my own set of criteria for what makes a sound that I like. And I believe the point from both of us - is to HAVE a set of criteria to judge our sound.

As far as recording goes, I can pretty much color my sound as I like, with DAW filters and such. I mean, there are limits. I can't make my King 3B/F sound like a bass or vice versa, but I can make one sound bigger and the other sound more focused. And contrary to popular opinion (not necessarily yours), the mic DOES lie - a LOT! So much so that we really tend to listen closely to style when we are trying to differentiate one great player from another. There are exceptions. JJ & Kai were pretty easy to distinguish between. But not so much between JJ and Curtis, from what I can tell. Urbie vs Bill? Mostly style, I think.

Anyway, if I was demoing a prospective horn at a shop, I wouldn't accept an opinion from anyone as to which I sounded best on. I wouldn't be playing for them in my studio.

Just my take on it. For most people, go with an impartial observer, as noted.

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:11 am

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:53 am Two thoughts:

1. Pay attention to comfort and ergonomics. Your ability to play a horn will improve as you get used to it, but the basics of dimension and balance will not.

2. Do not trust your ears. This is not a new idea, but it's been reinforced for me recently, and I may even do a recording to explain why. But I think one of the differences between horns is as much with the feedback they give as the sound that comes out. A bell at the right distance from you ear might sound great - or awful - but a listener might have a totally different take. Plastic trombones in particular can give very different feedback than a brass trombone that doesn't sound a whole lot different. So take a friend who can listen, and maybe record it too.

Yes, I believe this holds true for the majority of players. Myself, I couldn't care less if someone else likes my sound or not. I play for my own amusement, so I have my own set of criteria for what makes a sound that I like. And I believe the point from both of us - is to HAVE a set of criteria to judge our sound.

Well, yes, but once you have that set of criteria, you have to decide how to measure it. I'm trying to say that you can't measure it accurately from behind the bell, because different horns send a different amount of sound backwards toward your ear. Probably a good bit of what we think sounds different is not, it's just different feedback from the bell.

Probably the biggest evidence is the pBone. Anyone who picks one up will tell you how dull and toy-like they play. And yet on recordings many people cannot tell them apart from a 3B. How can both be true? I think it's the feedback from that bell sitting next to your ear.

Just a reminder that the OP is still at school, a member of the national youth orchestra in the UK, so will have a teacher, and waiting to go to a music college.

Sadly we haven't heard from him again as yet

Seems a bit of a limited range of makes to choose from. Certainly listen to the teacher, and maybe consider a trip to a place with some alternatives. I know a few folk around here have bought Getzen in fairly recent times. Anyway, good luck for the future.

I don't know your playing background/goals, but I believe you can order from the various Conn slides that are available for the 8H/88H if you choose that horn: SL2525, SL2547, SL4747, SL4762. All of them have removeable leadpipes.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:12 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:02 am

ATW. The dude selling them didn't believe me when I said that the horn didn't fit in my hand, even though he was next to me, my hand was on the slide grip, and I was demonstrating how my hand would have been cut by the outer slide since it was touching the inner slide tube whIle holding it.

Put your middle finger on the other side of the slide brace (Doug Yeo wrote something advocating this grip many years ago). I don't think I've encountered a single trombone that wouldn't catch my hand if I used the grip they taught us in middle school with all fingers below the brace.

I have no trouble holding a trombone "the middle school way", even my alto. You must have very large hands. No, the Courtois is too small for a human to use. It's hobbit size. Look at this hand grip:

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:24 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:12 am Put your middle finger on the other side of the slide brace (Doug Yeo wrote something advocating this grip many years ago). I don't think I've encountered a single trombone that wouldn't catch my hand if I used the grip they taught us in middle school with all fingers below the brace.

I have no trouble holding a trombone "the middle school way", even my alto. You must have very large hands. No, the Courtois is too small for a human to use. It's hobbit size. Look at this hand grip:

I don't think my hands are unusually large for a grown man. Here's my Holton 180 if I make the silly mistake of holding it the same way you did that Courtois.
I won't even attempt to hold my Benge (or any tenor) like that, guarantee of smashing my palm with the slide. Seriously, move your middle finger to the other side of the brace, it's so much more comfortable.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:24 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:24 pm
I have no trouble holding a trombone "the middle school way", even my alto. You must have very large hands. No, the Courtois is too small for a human to use. It's hobbit size. Look at this hand grip:

I don't think my hands are unusually large for a grown man. Here's my Holton 180 if I make the silly mistake of holding it the same way you did that Courtois.

holtonSlide.jpg

I won't even attempt to hold my Benge (or any tenor) like that, guarantee of smashing my palm with the slide. Seriously, move your middle finger to the other side of the brace, it's so much more comfortable.

Nah. I'm good. There's only one brand that I've tried that didn't work with a normal grip, so I wanted the OP to be aware of that when testing them.