TromboneChat

Hi all,

I've got this oddball in my collection: a small shank Bach 1.5G.

The stamp is unlike any other Bach I've seen. The font seems a bit squarer, and the stamp is slightly uneven - looks like it could be hand-stamped. The size marking is a separate stamp on the opposite side of the mouthpiece - all the other Bachs I've seen have it in-line with the Vincent Bach Corp text. There's also what might be a very small zero stamped on the shank.

Any ideas what it might be? I've always assumed it's some sort of custom order, but wasn't aware Bach did such a thing.

I think that might be late 1960s Elkhart stamping. Other collectors should be able to give you a more definitive answer on that.

The mouthpiece was likely a custom order. Mouthpiece manufacturers have been making custom orders for generations.......if you pay the right price, they will make it. I have some custom-order mouthpieces that Schilke and Bach made for me in the 1980s. One of those mouthpieces was a tenor shank in the Bach 1.5G/Schilke 59 size range that Schilke made. I wanted to experiment with something large for a couple of my old tenor-shank euphoniums. It turned out to be a flop.....too big and it had serious focus and intonation problems.

Remember, the mouthpiece makers will make anything for you for the right price. It doesn't mean that the mouthpiece will actually be a great player!

Back in the 1970`s I had Bach make me a 7 with a Bass Shank.
The size stamp was on the opposite side of the mouthpiece just like yours, marked 7
T
I think that when Bach made a custom model they hand stamped on the other side
A friend had a Bass shank 7C stamped the same way.
Not to long ago I saw a 12C with a bass shank , again size number on the other side

For the right money , most companies will do just about anything for you

There actually were some instruments that were nominally bass trombones that used a small shank.

I wish I could have found one of these when I was trying to cover bass trombone parts with my Olds Ambassador with F.

I have a small shank Mount Vernon 2G in my possession. Whether it plays well is something I haven't been able to determine yet - due to lack of instrument to try it in.

I have a Corp 3GB (B for baritone) in small shank. It's also pretty odd compared to similar vintage mouthpieces, and is much larger than my Corp 3G in large shank... go figure

Alan Raph used to use one of those for occasional tenor playing and for small shank euphonium. I would guess that bass trombonists doing valve playing on older American baritone/euphoniums that were small shank were the main customers for those rare mouthpieces.

Jim Scott

When I was in college and playing a Giardinelli Symphony T on a 42B, I had Giardinelli make me a small shank Symphony T, hoping to use it on my 36B. It was deeper than the large shank ones and played horribly.

I like to experiment but generally I won't make special orders that I know won't work.

A tuba colleague of mine has one of these that he uses on a small shank euphonium.

I had a Mt. Vernon 1.5 with a small shank. Sold it to Savio...

DonH wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:24 pm I had a Mt. Vernon 1.5 with a small shank. Sold it to Savio...

Hi Don! Yes I still have it, but I cut of the small shank and solder on a large shank. Surprisingly it works wonderful! I'm going to play it a little these weekend. Have I mentioned it before? these Mt Vernon's 1 1/2g is the best bass trombone mouthpieces in the world! So it is........

Leif

I've owned a Small shank MV2G and seen a couple small shank MV 1.5's. My personal theory is they would have been used for G basses or a small shank German horn. The ones I've seen in person are identical in the cup and rim to their large shank counterparts.

Thanks all. I never realised you could order off-menu with Bach.

I've yet to find a practical use for it - if I had a small bore horn with a trigger I'd leave it in the case for covering low parts, but I don't!

I have tried it in a small bore tenor and plays pretty much how you'd expect - very dark, dull and woofy.

Still, it's interesting, if nothing else.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:09 pm I've owned a Small shank MV2G and seen a couple small shank MV 1.5's. My personal theory is they would have been used for G basses or a small shank German horn. The ones I've seen in person are identical in the cup and rim to their large shank counterparts.

Not used for G basses as they used a shank size in-between small and large, sometimes called a European size. It was also used on older, pre 1974 British euphoniums.

Oddities do occur from time to time. I have a gold plated Denis Wick 4AS. It has never been in any catalogue as far as I know and when I got it many years ago, I contacted the factory. They didn't remember ever making it but said it could have been a special order for someone.

Cheers

Stewbones 43

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:09 pm I've owned a Small shank MV2G and seen a couple small shank MV 1.5's. My personal theory is they would have been used for G basses or a small shank German horn. The ones I've seen in person are identical in the cup and rim to their large shank counterparts.

Not used for G basses as they used a shank size in-between small and large, sometimes called a European size. It was also used on older, pre 1974 British euphoniums.

Oddities do occur from time to time. I have a gold plated Denis Wick 4AS. It has never been in any catalogue as far as I know and when I got it many years ago, I contacted the factory. They didn't remember ever making it but said it could have been a special order for someone.

Cheers

Stewbones 43

The 4AS was made for Jim Ketchen ,principal trombone at Sadlers Wells. He played a 6H...never made the jump to an 8H...didn't need to...sounded awesome.

Chris

Wow! Thanks Chris. I never thought I would find out who it was made for, especially since the factory didn't know. I think that info might add 50 pence to its value when I come round to selling it.

Cheers

Stewbones 43

I did quite a few London Concert Orchestra gigs with him back in the late '70's. I didn't realise that he didn't play an 8H because his sound was so full and rich. He was a great character. I understand that he was on track to be a concert pianist until WW2 got in the way...he was parachuted into Arnham....his main chute didn't open properly and the reserve became tangled with it. In cutting the main chute away, he made a big mess of his hands and would never play the piano again. After the war,he took up the trombone as finger movement was not important on the instrument. Denis admired his playing and made the 4AS for him so he could stick on the 6H in the days of bigger is better...wait a minute, we're still in the days of bigger is better....
We will not see his like again.

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:09 pm I've owned a Small shank MV2G and seen a couple small shank MV 1.5's. My personal theory is they would have been used for G basses or a small shank German horn. The ones I've seen in person are identical in the cup and rim to their large shank counterparts.

Not used for G basses as they used a shank size in-between small and large, sometimes called a European size. It was also used on older, pre 1974 British euphoniums.

Oddities do occur from time to time. I have a gold plated Denis Wick 4AS. It has never been in any catalogue as far as I know and when I got it many years ago, I contacted the factory. They didn't remember ever making it but said it could have been a special order for someone.

Cheers

Stewbones 43

The 0.487” bore G bass was built with a small receiver. The larger Betty model G/D bass was 0.5265” bore and had a medium receiver.

EdwardSolomon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:28 am The 0.487” bore G bass was built with a small receiver. The larger Betty model G/D bass was 0.5265” bore and had a medium receiver.

Off topic, but... what was a typical mouthpiece size for the G bass? I'd guess considerably smaller than most 'modern' bass trombone pieces?

soseggnchips wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am

EdwardSolomon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:28 am The 0.487” bore G bass was built with a small receiver. The larger Betty model G/D bass was 0.5265” bore and had a medium receiver.

Off topic, but... what was a typical mouthpiece size for the G bass? I'd guess considerably smaller than most 'modern' bass trombone pieces?

When I got my G Bass I asked on TTF. Doug Yeo replied that a typical G Bass mouthpiece was around the size of a 6.5 AL. I found a Yamaha 4AY worked great on mine (it's a straight, roughly 0.525" bore, Medium Shank).

Question - maybe for Chris? What would be the the difference between the Wick 4AS and the 4AY? I know that the "Y" was designed for the Yamaha 321 euphoniums with the small shank. There's also a 4AM that was made for the medium shank euphoniums (old besson/boosey and some willson, etc.). Was the backbore different? Sorry to add to the "off-topic" turn of the thread.

Jim Scott

EdwardSolomon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:28 am

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm

Not used for G basses as they used a shank size in-between small and large, sometimes called a European size. It was also used on older, pre 1974 British euphoniums.

Oddities do occur from time to time. I have a gold plated Denis Wick 4AS. It has never been in any catalogue as far as I know and when I got it many years ago, I contacted the factory. They didn't remember ever making it but said it could have been a special order for someone.

Cheers

Stewbones 43

The 0.487” bore G bass was built with a small receiver. The larger Betty model G/D bass was 0.5265” bore and had a medium receiver.

Ha. I knew I wasn't crazy!

If anyone's looking for a similar experience without tracking down one of the few custom Bachs, Kelly sells their 1.5G-sized (if I remember correctly) bass piece in small shank. Could be worth a whirl for the princely sum of $33!