TromboneChat

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:36 am**

I'm asking this mostly out of my own curiosity.

Feel free to comment why, or if you like different materials for different styles (etc).

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:54 am**

Nickel bell on my 88HN, have tried the yellow and gold brass on 42B's but they didn't suit me particularly well. I feel that the nickel is more versatile than the yellow bell which just felt too loud and the gold which felt too wide. Haven't tried a stock 88H for any meaningful time either, so I guess I might just like my 88H. I also don't think that I actually have the skill to pick one I like more, so I just chose what I would want to keep forever. Unsurprisingly having 3 rotary valve .547 tenors isn't the best financial decision.

Oh yeah and having a silvery bell on a yellow brass horn look absolutely amazing. Fully silver plated horns I cannot stand.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:39 am**

I have a problem with red and rose grouping together. The red brass used in instruments is 90% copper, 10% zince, and what is called rose brass is most often 85% copper and 15% zinc. Bach and Weril gold brsss is 80% copper and 20%.

In my opnion 5% difference in alloy makes a big difference between Red and rose and less between rose and gold. I personally like rose and gold but less red brass.

Also, a few trombones have copper bells.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:39 am**

I really like the bell of my Yamaha over all my other horns.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:59 am**

I have owned yellow, gold and red/rose and have played all the above except sterling silver. Every time I think I can tell an appreciable difference in bell materials from behind the horn other peoples ears or a mic in front of the horn tells a different story, so I base my decisions more on the specs and playability of the rest of the horn and get red/rose if it is an option because I like that aesthetic. -Joe

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:07 am**

Peacemate wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:54 am Nickel bell on my 88HN, have tried the yellow and gold brass on 42B's but they didn't suit me particularly well. I feel that the nickel is more versatile than the yellow bell which just felt too loud and the gold which felt too wide. Haven't tried a stock 88H for any meaningful time either, so I guess I might just like my 88H. I also don't think that I actually have the skill to pick one I like more, so I just chose what I would want to keep forever. Unsurprisingly having 3 rotary valve .547 tenors isn't the best financial decision.

Oh yeah and having a silvery bell on a yellow brass horn look absolutely amazing. Fully silver plated horns I cannot stand.

Lucky. I had a student who had a 88HN. It played great. His mom sold it without asking if I'd like to buy it

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:09 am**

I like variety. I wouldn't mind a large bore nickel or yellow brass bell though.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:25 am**

My favorite bells are on the 88h (rose), 48h (nickel plated coprion - I realize there's some dispute about coprion or yellow brass) and the Rath R3 nickel silver bell. You need to add coprion to your options, or at least straight copper.

Of course the bell never exists in isolation. On the 88h the light bell works with the heavy slide, and the Rath I think has a special slide that they pair with the ns bell.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:28 pm**

Hard to say since I own yellow brass (6H), rose brass (Besson 943GS bass) and red brass (Holton 168). The two tenors have heavy slides while the bass has lightweight tubes. Guess i just have little experience trying things and take what's available.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:29 pm**

Sterling silver is my favorite. I can get depth in my sound that is wonderful. But you cannot over blow or put an edge on sterling silver so I also have brass. Red brass is fail for me. This has been said by those listening to me too.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:59 pm**

Yellow is my favorite for most trombones, as it's the most balanced. I do enjoy red/rose bells on certain horns like my 88H and Edwards tenors, and when I pieced together a Rath R9 at ETW one year I liked a nickel bell the best. But for most things, yellow proves to me why it's the standard.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:22 pm**

Yellow, rose and stering silver, all my favorites for different situations. Or maybe, its the different horns that are my favorites. ..

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:27 pm**

I like good bells. What material they are doesn't really bother me if it's a good bell. I have...

7x yellow bells

1x gold bell

2x red bell

Sterling is always calling my name, but I'm not sure I would say it's my favorite.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:49 pm**

I have 4 yellow brass (alto, 2 smaller tenors and a small bass) and 4 red brass ( 1 ML,2 LB and a large bass) so the split is roughly half for commercial and half for classical, but sometimes I break the rules.

Cheers

Stewbones

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:35 pm**

Might have been better to specify the copper/zinc ratio.

Bach calls 80/20 brass "Gold brass", but Shires and Rath call 85/15 brass "Gold Brass". Yamaha uses "Gold Brass" as well, but doesn't specify what it is.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:10 pm**

LoL "gold" was a choice. Talk about heavy! And malleable!

Posted: **Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:48 am**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:10 pm LoL "gold" was a choice. Talk about heavy! And malleable!

Gold brass, clearly.

Posted: **Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:51 am**

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:48 am
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:10 pm LoL "gold" was a choice. Talk about heavy! And malleable!
Gold brass, clearly.

Of course. I picked sterling and yellow, those are my faves

Posted: **Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:49 am**

To be honest, I haven't tried that many bells, but horns with gold brass bells have been my favorite so far. Many other factors that's important though..

Shires has this "deutch brass" option, supposed to be in the middle of yellow and gold. Has anyone tried it?

Posted: **Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:06 am**

noordinaryjoe wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:59 am I have owned yellow, gold and red/rose and have played all the above except sterling silver. Every time I think I can tell an appreciable difference in bell materials from behind the horn other peoples ears or a mic in front of the horn tells a different story, so I base my decisions more on the specs and playability of the rest of the horn and get red/rose if it is an option because I like that aesthetic. -Joe

+1

Posted: **Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:36 am**

I've found most of the effects to be on feedback to my face, which matters as much to me as sound. Every horn is the sum of its parts, but I tend to like horns that are all brass no nickel. They just feel better to me.

Posted: **Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:28 am**

Seabass wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:49 am To be honest, I haven't tried that many bells, but horns with gold brass bells have been my favorite so far. Many other factors that's important though..

Shires has this "deutch brass" option, supposed to be in the middle of yellow and gold. Has anyone tried it?

Whoa. That would be the ideal sound in my humble opinion.

Posted: **Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:37 pm**

The bell material is just one component in the overall sound, and it is minimal compared to the tapers, leadpipe, mouthpiece, bell shape, bell thickness, bead type, and soldered vs. unsoldered.

It's complimentary, but not what really decides "the sound", unless you are listening with your eyes.

88Hs have a sound, yes, but I suspect that has to do with the slide crook, the leadpipe, and the bell taper. Compare to a bach. The big difference is not the bell material.

I could be wrong. Anyone tried like a shires setup and swapped out to a identical spec bell, just made out of a different material?

Posted: **Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:45 pm**

Harrisonreed.
Bell construction has more of an influence on the difference between Bach and Conn than any other feature you mentioned.

Playing a Bach bell on a Conn "chassis" (ie, a Bach bell with every other part.of the horn being standard Conn) sounds like a Bach. A Conn bell on a Bach "chassis" sounds like a Conn.

Posted: **Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:59 pm**

I think that in honesty, nobody can compare these because an "apples to apples" comparison for all these materials is not really available outside of special order from a few custom makers.

Yellow vs. Gold- compare Bach 42 bells? Great idea... line up 10 yellow belled 42s and they'll all play differently.

Yellow vs. Red- Get some 78Hs/79Hs and compare those? You now have a benchmark 78H/79Hs for two-piece yellow and red bells.

Gold vs. Red- Shell out 3K and wait a year to have Shires build you a pair of bells in identical gauge, construction, and heat treatment. Put on your Shires chassis. Discover that it sounds like a Shires.

Red/Rose- Put on rose colored glasses.

Ad nauseam....

The only people who can REALLY answer this question for you are the ones who can build you a modular horn. Certainly there are "qualities" to each material, but my point is that they are inseparable from the whole of the instrument. Certain materials benefit from certain constructions, and those are what you'll find in the catalogues of Edwards, Shires, M&W, Rath, ect.

FWIW my opinion is that the different masses/densities of the brass alloys make some difference, but the majority of the noticeable difference comes in how these alloys stiffen/relax in response to work and heat.

Posted: **Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:25 am**

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:45 pm Harrisonreed.
Bell construction has more of an influence on the difference between Bach and Conn than any other feature you mentioned.

Playing a Bach bell on a Conn "chassis" (ie, a Bach bell with every other part.of the horn being standard Conn) sounds like a Bach. A Conn bell on a Bach "chassis" sounds like a Conn.

Would that not be the bell taper, bead, and gague though, more than material? They are completely different.

Posted: **Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 am**

I've tried Rath 9 1/2" bass bells in nickle silver, yellow brass, vintage yellow brass, gold brass, red brass and pure copper.
All different......but you balance them with other parts of the trombone setup and all can be part of a fine instrument. That is the most important takeaway from this discussion....there is no best or worst, just different ways to a result.

Chris

Posted: **Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:58 am**

I don't really have a favorite bell material, although I do have a soft spot for a carbon-fiber bell because of its durability for environments like very tight musical theater pit orchestras with tons of mute changes.

Posted: **Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:28 am**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:37 pm The bell material is just one component in the overall sound, and it is minimal compared to the tapers, leadpipe, mouthpiece, bell shape, bell thickness, bead type, and soldered vs. unsoldered.

It's complimentary, but not what really decides "the sound", unless you are listening with your eyes.

88Hs have a sound, yes, but I suspect that has to do with the slide crook, the leadpipe, and the bell taper. Compare to a bach. The big difference is not the bell material.

I could be wrong. Anyone tried like a shires setup and swapped out to a identical spec bell, just made out of a different material?

I disagree with this quite a bit, but probably not how you think. Doing exactly what you state, trying out the same bell with two different materials is exactly how I would start fitting somebody a horn at [redacted]. Was it the main factor? No. Was it the main factor for some people? Also no. However, there was often a very significant interaction between player and material. Not all players, but enough that it could be a useful filter to see if we could eliminate a variable. I have no data here, but I would guess about half of players had this effect, maybe slightly less. My guess is that it is in the initial feedback where some people hear something and then just respond a little differently. For example, I tend to initially sound more airy and uncentered on bells with more copper. The more copper, the greater this effect. Does it sound basically the same at the back of the hall, yes. But we’re playing at the margins here. Likewise, I find myself unable to get a strong robust resonance with nickel. This goes anywhere from slides, neck pipes, or bells. This I do find I can hear at the back of the hall, on myself and others, but I would not bet on gold vs yellow any day.

These days, most of my horns are yellow, but I spend a lot of time on a red brass Holton flare. Not the ideal match for me, but I’m not going to scrap it out due to something that is 99% aesthetics. Should I also mention that I prefer the look of a nice gold brass flare? I wish I sounded better on them.

Cheers,
Andy

Posted: **Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:12 am**

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:28 am
Seabass wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:49 am To be honest, I haven't tried that many bells, but horns with gold brass bells have been my favorite so far. Many other factors that's important though..

Shires has this "deutch brass" option, supposed to be in the middle of yellow and gold. Has anyone tried it?
Whoa. That would be the ideal sound in my humble opinion.

I have a suspicion that older Bach trombones are this. My 36 has a yellow slide and a "darker yellow" bell, and so do many horns I've seen from its (early Elkhart) era...

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:39 pm**

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 am I've tried Rath 9 1/2" bass bells in nickle silver, yellow brass, vintage yellow brass, gold brass, red brass and pure copper.
All different......but you balance them with other parts of the trombone setup and all can be part of a fine instrument. That is the most important takeaway from this discussion....there is no best or worst, just different ways to a result.

Chris

I agree with this to a point... 11 years ago I would have agreed 100%... 11 years ago I finally discovered a large bore tenor that really worked for me... over the years I had tried Conn, Courtois, Bach, Getzen, Shires, Bach (again), XO, Blessing, and Edwards... none of which ever really sit well with me. But, after some coaxing from Mick Rath, I seriously tried out his large bore tenors. I went into it thinking either gold or rose brass bell with a nickel or yellow slide, and a yellow tuning slide... that was the approximate setup of my bass and small bore Shires at the time.

He configured that along with a Rotax valve (I prefer standard rotors)... it was NOT a good horn for me... a switch here, a modification there... many times... I ended up with something that I would have NEVER put together myself. A nickel bell, red brass tuning slide and hand slide with a Hagmann valve... the horn is amazing... I tried the exact same setup with a Rotax valve and it didn’t speak as well... I did the same with bell choice... just did t work on the .547 size.

However... for my small bore R10 (no longer on Shires) I have a nickel bell, yellow tuning slide, and nickel slide... the best commercial small horn I’ve ever played... and in a lead setting... it can rip the paint off the walls. My medium bore has a nickel bell, gold tuning slide, and yellow hand slide (paired with a Rotax valve when the valve is on it)... this horn is a great salsa horn when the air is pushed through... but can tame easily in a quintet or light classical. My bass is identical to my .547 except I have stacked Rotax valves on it... it’s the darkest, fattest sound I’ve ever gotten from an instrument... and I loved my Shires setups... Mick took what I had on the Shires and put it on steroids.

The common point in all of these is bell material... the rest are all different... but the other bell alloys just don’t work for me. The crazy thing... I would have never even thought about nickel... go figure.

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:45 pm**

deanmccarty wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:39 pm
FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:16 am I've tried Rath 9 1/2" bass bells in nickle silver, yellow brass, vintage yellow brass, gold brass, red brass and pure copper.
All different......but you balance them with other parts of the trombone setup and all can be part of a fine instrument. That is the most important takeaway from this discussion....there is no best or worst, just different ways to a result.

Chris
I agree with this to a point... 11 years ago I would have agreed 100%... 11 years ago I finally discovered a large bore tenor that really worked for me... over the years I had tried Conn, Courtois, Bach, Getzen, Shires, Bach (again), XO, Blessing, and Edwards... none of which ever really sit well with me. But, after some coaxing from Mick Rath, I seriously tried out his large bore tenors. I went into it thinking either gold or rose brass bell with a nickel or yellow slide, and a yellow tuning slide... that was the approximate setup of my bass and small bore Shires at the time.

He configured that along with a Rotax valve (I prefer standard rotors)... it was NOT a good horn for me... a switch here, a modification there... many times... I ended up with something that I would have NEVER put together myself. A nickel bell, red brass tuning slide and hand slide with a Hagmann valve... the horn is amazing... I tried the exact same setup with a Rotax valve and it didn’t speak as well... I did the same with bell choice... just did t work on the .547 size.

However... for my small bore R10 (no longer on Shires) I have a nickel bell, yellow tuning slide, and nickel slide... the best commercial small horn I’ve ever played... and in a lead setting... it can rip the paint off the walls. My medium bore has a nickel bell, gold tuning slide, and yellow hand slide (paired with a Rotax valve when the valve is on it)... this horn is a great salsa horn when the air is pushed through... but can tame easily in a quintet or light classical. My bass is identical to my .547 except I have stacked Rotax valves on it... it’s the darkest, fattest sound I’ve ever gotten from an instrument... and I loved my Shires setups... Mick took what I had on the Shires and put it on steroids.

The common point in all of these is bell material... the rest are all different... but the other bell alloys just don’t work for me. The crazy thing... I would have never even thought about nickel... go figure.

So you like the ns bells....but in different sizes of trombone, you have had to mate them to different components....it's what I said...even if you choose one bell material you then have to build the trombone and that's a trial and error. Done with care and an open mind you get great instruments, but I don't have to tell you that.

Chris

Posted: **Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:29 pm**

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:45 pm
So you like the ns bells....but in different sizes of trombone, you have had to mate them to different components....it's what I said...even if you choose one bell material you then have to build the trombone and that's a trial and error. Done with care and an open mind you get great instruments, but I don't have to tell you that.

True... I guess what I left out is that no matter what configuration I put together on a gold brass or yellow bell it just didn’t work for me... the nickel bell with each configuration is what works... so... yes I agree that you can put together a series of components on any bell and get your desired outcome... but it’s also about the person. What works for me may or may not work for anyone else.

But your last statement is key... going into the journey with an open mind is the most important thing. I would have never discovered the instruments that I play now if I had been dead set on gold brass... I would probably still be on my Shires... which was a good horn... just not the great horn that I have now.

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