TromboneChat

Which valve/s do you prefer?

Added more options

I have too many horns... that said, if it is leaving the house, it is generally going to be a Trubore or a standard rotor these days. Though a honorable mention to some Thayers that I may play (only independent bass or Large bore tenor valve that I use).

That said, I do have in playing condition:
-CL2000
-Holton Monster
-Bach Balanced "K" valve
that are ready at a moments notice to step forward (they will not be needed).

So I had to click the "other" just because they exist.

Cheers,
Andy

On trombone, when I play valves I play old Elkhart valves or ~6 year old Kanstul CR (I checked the oversized rotor box) on bass. Any newer horns I have are generally straight.

I have Yamaha and Bach rotors. The Yamaha is OK but not as open as I would like, it's certainly playable though. On the other hand, the Bach rotor is absolutely abissmal , I can't get a good sound on it no matter how hard I try. I don't really play straight much.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:00 pm I have too many horns... that said, if it is leaving the house, it is generally going to be a Trubore or a standard rotor these days. Though a honorable mention to some Thayers that I may play (only independent bass or Large bore tenor valve that I use).

That said, I do have in playing condition:
-CL2000
-Holton Monster
-Bach Balanced "K" valve
that are ready at a moments notice to step forward (they will not be needed).

So I had to click the "other" just because they exist.

Cheers,
Andy

The Holton monster seems like a really good idea but really terrible execution. I wonder how a three port (2 straight paths and one S-bend) rotor arranged like an axial valve would work.

Standard rotor (large tenor and bass) and straight for me. On the bass, the 2nd valve really opens up when in G.

skeletal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:45 pm ...
The Holton monster seems like a really good idea but really terrible execution. I wonder how a three port (2 straight paths and one S-bend) rotor arranged like an axial valve would work.

Yeah, that Holton monster valve was truly... a monstrosity.

7 normal rotors (counting contra in there), 2 oversized, 3 axials, 1 K valve, 3 straight horns (two of which are convertible). Use what works! I like them all in different ways.

I love the new Edwards AR valve. Very very nice. Super happy with it on my T396-AR.

I've heard its a big hit on the basses too. I have two Rotax valves on my Edwards bass and am very happy with it.

Shires twin valve - gives just the right resistance when open and feels almost the same when activated. I really like the feel of the string linkage, just hope it never breaks - I have no idea how to re-tie it!

The valve needs to work in balance with the rest of the horn. Maybe the Bach valves are unbalanced out of the box, but the standard conn and CL2000 are perfect for the 88H, and the axial and rotaxes are perfect on Edwards.

I have nothing but standard rotors and valveless trombones. I really enjoy the feel of a good rotor, but I also love a nice Hagmann or Trubore. I've played some Thayers I liked too, but those are few and far between.

Perhaps adding a few options, like Olsen (Instrument Innovations) rotors, Kanstul CR (Controlled Resistance), Greenhoe, and others. “Oversized” doesn’t cover all the available options.

I've played on mostly standard rotor horns since college in the 70's. Some were not too great (80's Bach 42B, 50B), some are excellent (Getzen 1062FD from the late 90's), and one (2017 JP/Rath 3320) has surprised me with how good it has been over the last four years. Just because I could, I also bought late last year a Bach 42AFG with the Infinity Thayer valve. That's been excellent as well. I have tried and liked in the past the Hagmann valve on Bach's, and the CL2000 on the 88H, but did not invest in either.

Thayers on one of my Bach 50s, Standard rotors on the other, and K valve on the 42.

Only "standard" rotors.
Very generalized I tend to prefer my own sound when playing rotors and this also applies for other people's sound.
Although some of the "non-standard" rotors (Greenhoe, Lätzsch etc.) are very tempting...

Added more options

The one that came with my horn: CL2000.

On my Bach42BO , I had the Olsen Valve installed. The best thing I`ve done for a horn in a long time. Love it !
On my Yamaha 321 Bass - The standard rotor that came with the horn is exceptional so why muck it up.

I might add that I've played Hagmanns and like the way they feel/play, but wouldn't want to maintain them. Also liked the Shires duo bore in the context of certain horns, not sure I'd like it everywhere. I might like the feel of an axial valve if it were mechanically a little less fussy. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, so I have the right to be a little fussy about mechanical stuff, how it's designed, how it goes together, comes apart, is maintained, etc.

The perfect valve is one that just works, and doesn't need a lot of disassembly, in addition to keeping a consistent feel in the horn. Perfect = 30 year old piston valves that you shoot oil in once a week without disassembling them. Perfect = my 88h valve that just works whether I put oil in it or not, and I've been able to disassemble and reassemble them successfully even in high school. Perfect is 60 year old Miraphone valves that just work, are easy to oil, and are easy to disassemble. Perfect is NOT my Kanstul valves that require shop attention every other year, and seem to run free without lube, but bind up when I put oil in them. Perfect is NOT an axial where you have to disassemble the entire bell section to service the valve.

I have a feeling that part of what makes modern valves fussy is the unecessarily tight tolerances. "Just because you can" and "tighter must mean better" are things we fight against in mechanical engineering. The function of the valve and the low pressures involved don't require a tight fit, especially when you consider that being user serviceable is a huge requirement. Just because modern machining allows you to make much tighter fits doesn't mean that technique fits the design any better than it did 100 years ago. It should mean better repeatability and better replacement parts. Some people obsess on "compression" of valves (essentially the seal). I've only ever played on one valve that had truly lost it's seal, and that was because a naive tech literally bent my horn to "adjust" the slide angle, and deformed the valve case. Theoretical cases of "low compression" are in most cases looking for a problem that doesn't exist. A valve has to have a big leak in it to start sounding bad, but only a small rub to move badly, and all valves have to avoid both all the time.

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:28 pm Which valve/s do you prefer?

Built in conflict with the title and your post. Which do I play? Which do I prefer?

So here's what I play: Standard rotary valves on my Holton 180s, Open port Bach 50 Corp era valves on my Bach 50.

What do I prefer? I tend to prefer rotary valves but only specific ones:
1. The ones I play.
2. M&W Rotary valves
3. Rotax rotary valves

Had my standard valve on my 42BO replaced with the Olsen rotary valve. What a difference! The standard valve on my 1977 36B works very well. My other horns are straight.

Standard. I wish the Yamaha valves were as open as my King 3B/F!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:09 am

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:28 pm Which valve/s do you prefer?

Built in conflict with the title and your post. Which do I play? Which do I prefer?

So here's what I play: Standard rotary valves on my Holton 180s

Exactly this - I play the valves that are on my instruments, which happen to be (not particularly great) rotors.

If I were building up a horn from scratch with money as no object I'd be interested in Hagmanns I think.

As for valves I want, I think I would like to try the twin valve as well as a thayer

I have a King 2125f that at some point I'd like to replace the valve on but in no rush. Whenever I do that I'll probably use an Olsen valve. Otherwise got a 62H Gen 2 with stock rotors. Really like those rotors on the 62H.

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:44 pm I have a King 2125f that at some point I'd like to replace the valve on but in no rush. Whenever I do that I'll probably use an Olsen valve. Otherwise got a 62H Gen 2 with stock rotors. Really like those rotors on the 62H.

I'm not sure there's an Olsen that would be a good match. Right now the only options are for large tenor and bass.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:54 pm

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:44 pm I have a King 2125f that at some point I'd like to replace the valve on but in no rush. Whenever I do that I'll probably use an Olsen valve. Otherwise got a 62H Gen 2 with stock rotors. Really like those rotors on the 62H.

I'm not sure there's an Olsen that would be a good match. Right now the only options are for large tenor and bass.

Gah, you're right. That stinks...

I use dual Rotax valves on my dependent bass and medium tenor... but on my large tenor I use a Hagmann valve. Each one works for that particular instrument.

+1 for the Laetzsch valve (which is on my daily driver tenor)

Currently I play Rotax. My favorite thing about them is the stop arms come undrilled, so i am able to to put the threaded hole super close to the spindle for an ultra short throw.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:51 am Currently I play Rotax. My favorite thing about them is the stop arms come undrilled, so i am able to to put the threaded hole super close to the spindle for an ultra short throw.

Very interesting!

Nobody has mentioned that double piston setup. (one attachment but two pistons move) Somebody here must have one.

And then, what key should the valve be in? I submit that for the tenor in Bb, the valve should be in G; for the alto in Eb, it should be in C. If I thought I had a longer playing career ahead of me that's what I would be looking for.

Arvopart17 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:23 pm Shires twin valve - gives just the right resistance when open and feels almost the same when activated. I really like the feel of the string linkage, just hope it never breaks - I have no idea how to re-tie it!

I tried the prototype and liked it. This is the first I've seen from somebody who actually owns one.

Arvopart17 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:23 pm Shires twin valve - gives just the right resistance when open and feels almost the same when activated. I really like the feel of the string linkage, just hope it never breaks - I have no idea how to re-tie it!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:08 pm

Arvopart17 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:23 pm Shires twin valve - gives just the right resistance when open and feels almost the same when activated. I really like the feel of the string linkage, just hope it never breaks - I have no idea how to re-tie it!

twin valve.jpg

And PRINT!

But seriously thanks, this is super helpful.

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:09 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:54 pm

I'm not sure there's an Olsen that would be a good match. Right now the only options are for large tenor and bass.

Gah, you're right. That stinks...

Probably wouldn't be as bad as you think, although you would have to replace the entire wrap since the tubing wouldn't work. Though to be fair, usually valves aren't 'drop in' replacements anyway so your tech would have to do some adjustments and order some different bends, etc. Most medium bores have 562 rotors, the same as their large bore counterparts, e.g. the Bach 36, Conn 78, Conn 88w/525 slide, Shires, Edwards, Rath(some of these have a 547 rotor, memory serving though), others that I'm inevitably forgetting. If you found a used assembly in good condition, your tech may well have less work than trying to get another 3rd party valve to work in that spot. It would depend on if the rotor was compatible with the slide receiver. It can actually be quite a complex process, depending on the levels of incompatibility with your horn and the parts. M&W offer conversions to their valve too. Someone who procures the valve and the tubing and does the work is a lot more valuable than you might think.

That said, I've always found King rotors to be quite good. It might not be the upgrade you think it is!

I do have a local tech who's pretty good at this stuff. M&W could also be an option as I'm only about 3 hours away from them.

M&W rotors of course!

My God so many valves? I must be a dinosaur, never tried anything else than standard rotors. Maybe on time for me to expand my horizons?

Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:58 pm My God so many valves? I must be a dinosaur, never tried anything else than standard rotors. Maybe on time for me to expand my horizons?

Leif

I've long been an advocate of not messing with success and all my horns have standard rotors that are pretty large and don't make for resistance issues. No need to try a different valve for me. Conn 36H, Bach 36C, Yamaha 682G, King 7B. All standard rotors.