TromboneChat

I have an opportunity to buy a 5B. Would have to buy it without playing it and I've never had the opportunity to play one. What is the bore size? How is the pedal range? Will it handle bass bone heavy big band books. I find myself living in the trigger range and pedal range a lot on gigs.
Thanks for any opinions and feedback.

The 5B is the same bore size as the 4B at .547, except it has a larger bell—9” I believe. It’s a kind of small bass trombone/large tenor. It might fill a niche, like small chamber pieces that need an F valve, do not have a lot of low C’s, and do not have low B’s. IMO, it will not handle bass bone heavy big band books.

There are lots of used two-valve bass bones around that will be easier to handle that kind of playing.

I had one for a few years (until I replaced it with a 4B). It's a "547" bore (0.547", 13.9 mm) with a 9 inch (225 mm) bell. Sorta like the Bach 45B, Holton TR-150, or the 9" belled Conn (89H?).

It was used as a bass in some Big Bands, but usually against a contingent of small bores.

Single valve, but with two tuning slides on the attachment so E pulls are faster. Still, low B natural is a drag. Low C is right at the end of the slide. For modern bass trombone use it falls a bit short. I liked mine as a 2nd trombone in Symphony, but as I said, I replaced it with a King 4B to play tenor.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:02 am I had one for a few years (until I replaced it with a 4B). It's a "547" bore (0.547", 13.9 mm) with a 9 inch (225 mm) bell. Sorta like the Bach 45B, Holton TR-150, or the 9" belled Conn (89H?).

Bruce, the 9" bell Conn is the 88HK.

In a word, no. It's not a bass. Not necessarily bad horns, but not basses.

The predecessor 1480 is actually a better bass, despite being smaller bore.

If you're looking for another single, I would look elsewhere.

The 5B is very much a tenor trombone. It was used in the Cleveland Orchestra in the 60's-70's by principal trombonist Robert Boyd and 2nd trombonist Alan Kofsky. It was really intended as an Americanized German style trombone to satisfy Gerorge Szell's desire for that sound but also satisfy the American players in the orchestra who wanted something that played like an American instrument. I never found it a particularly bass trombone sounding horn, really more of a very broad and dark tenor sound.

I believe it's Alan Kofsky, not Irwin. Kofsky is the "K" in the 88HK that he had something to do with when the Cleveland section was moving to Conns after Conn, Bach and King all became a part of the same company.

Jim Scott

Correction noted for Kofsky. I should know better, being as I met him a couple of times:(
The K bell was the 5B bell mounted on a Conn that was made for him after Conn-Selmer started to phase out the Benge.

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:32 amWill it handle bass bone heavy big band books.

If forced to choose between the two, I'd definitely go with the 1480 over the later 4B-based 5B - but neither would be my first choice for parts that hang out below the staff most of the time. It really is too bad King never made single-rotor sibling to the Duo Gravis.

I have seen a 5B many years ago that was 525/547. Seems like it had a bass shank. Also the bore size on the small leg might have been a little bigger, but not 547. I would not buy it until you can check it.

whitbey wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:06 am I have seen a 5B many years ago that was 525/547. Seems like it had a bass shank. Also the bore size on the small leg might have been a little bigger, but not 547. I would not buy it until you can check it.

That would be the predecessor 1480, .536/547. Not a 5B.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:43 am

whitbey wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:06 am I have seen a 5B many years ago that was 525/547. Seems like it had a bass shank. Also the bore size on the small leg might have been a little bigger, but not 547. I would not buy it until you can check it.

That would be the predecessor 1480, .536/547. Not a 5B.

Wasn't the dual bore one also called 2B Symphony at one point?

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:06 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:43 am

That would be the predecessor 1480, .536/547. Not a 5B.

Wasn't the dual bore one also called 2B Symphony at one point?

Yup 2-B, pretty sure it standard for 2 bore or something like that. There’s one on facebook with a sterling bell someone’s trying to sell

Originally King used 2B for any dual bore instrument. The big seller at the time was the Liberty (small bore). Then they kept 2B for that horn and created the "B" series with higher numbers for larger bores -- only the 2B kept its dual bore.

For a long time King did not have a bass -- the Symphony was as close as they came (early version of the 5B). It served as a good 4th trombone in the Big Bands of the 1950s, but for more modern Big Band writing you really need a larger bore dual valve instrument.

If forced to choose between the two, I'd definitely go with the 1480 over the later 4B-based 5B - but neither would be my first choice for parts that hang out below the staff most of the time. It really is too bad King never made single-rotor sibling to the Duo Gravis.

There is a single rotor DG in existence. One of our Trombone Forum members owns it. Nobody knows if it is a custom job done at the factory or something somebody made on their own.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:43 amThat would be the predecessor 1480, .536/547. Not a 5B.

King sold the 1480 under the 5B name for a while (though it was never marked as such). That's why I always qualify which 5B I'm talking about...

I played one once, and thought it played great! Very free blowing and easy to play. I think whether you buy it or not would at least in part depend on condition and price. As for using instead of a bass trombone, i'm inclined to say no, but I don't think it would serve thst perpose any worse than any other .547 bore horn. I don't know, try a 1 1/2G on it?

I have a dependent tenor. The original goal was to make a horn that I could swap out the bell for a bigger one when I needed to play bass and the slide for a 562. It plays well and I quite like it but it isn't a bass. I have used it on occasion for that purpose when I had a 9" bell for it but I really prefer a bigger bore through the tuning slide and opening of the bell section when you start to play with the F attachment a lot. Just a lot more nimble for me when I do that. For the same reason, I personally wouldn't reach for a 5B for bass stuff if I had other options. If you want something lighter, a 6B is a really great option and you can definitely still find them used. The Eb attachment that they have by default hardly adds any weight, although neither does the D attachment. And it's a lot more nimble in that register than a tenor is. Again, for me.

The 0.547 5B is to the 4B sort of like what a flugelhorn is to the cornet. A rich but more mellow sound and harder to get brightness into the sound.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:43 am

whitbey wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:06 am I have seen a 5B many years ago that was 525/547. Seems like it had a bass shank. Also the bore size on the small leg might have been a little bigger, but not 547. I would not buy it until you can check it.

That would be the predecessor 1480, .536/547. Not a 5B.

Maybe he had that slide on a 5B. The horn was rough.

I am very surprised that nobody has mentioned these things yet....

The 5B is definitely a tenor trombone. Very simply, it is a King .547 large bore tenor (King 4B) with a larger bell (larger in bell width and throat). However, the 5B "feels" smaller than the vast majority of .547 bore large bore tenors on the market for two reasons:

1. The tubing in the F-attachment is only a .547 bore. Almost every other brand of large bore tenor has .562 bore tubing in the F-attachment. This is a HUGE factor! If you want a horn that will be open in the trigger register, the 5B will likely NOT deliver because of it's smaller dimensions in the F-attachment.

2. The standard leadpipe for both the 4B and 5B is rather tight. Compared to most of the .547 bore leadpipes on the market, it is about .020 to .025 smaller at the venturi. Diameter at the venturi does not always determine how a trombone feels or responds. However, that is a significant restriction compared to other brands.

I always giggle when I think about how a friend of mine described using a 5B on bass trombone parts in a big band. He said "it was like trying to put out a five-alarm fire with a household garden hose."

whitbey wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:59 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:43 am

That would be the predecessor 1480, .536/547. Not a 5B.

Maybe he had that slide on a 5B. The horn was rough.

Like John said above, the 1480 Symphony was also sold as (I think) the 5B Symphony for a little bit. So you were probably right the first time.

davebb wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:51 am The 0.547 5B is to the 4B sort of like what a flugelhorn is to the cornet. A rich but more mellow sound and harder to get brightness into the sound.

The differences are a lot more subtle than that. That extra .5" bell isn't nearly as a big deal as the rest of the horn, all things equal which in this case they largely are in my experience.

I had a King 5B with 9" bell half a year ago, it was nice to play, but brighter in tonal color and lighter in response than my 8.5" bell Yamaha YSL 682B and my 8.5" bell Besson Sovereign BE-944-R. I sold it, cause it did not add any new or better timbre to my collection, having also a YSL 682G and a YSL 356G for the lighter and brighter uses.

The King 5B is definitely no mini-bass-bone .. for heavy bass-bone big band charts you need a real bass bone, there I prefer a Conn 112H I own, but there are many options out there fitting the bill well - YBL-613 (not the H version), for example. Or King 7B (which I also owned), or Benge 290 (my pal is found about that one).

IMHO a 2-valve bass bone is a good thing to have for modern big band charts.

In case you are a real slide-artist and don't need to hit C and B with two ledger lines below the staff, a 1-valve as YBL 321 (very nice too, it's in my stable), YBL 322, Conn 110H (also owning two of these, the older ones with the tootsie-roll braces tend to play a bit darker and take more sound pressure, especially the 9.5" version is really good, but the 10" bell I also own with tootsie rolls is fine too) , will be fine.

But as all-round bass bone for modern big band charts, IMHO the best you can do to get a used 2-valve which has snappy response. You can be patient and get one used for 1.200 to 1.800 $ depending on model and how good it looks ...

davebb wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:51 am The 0.547 5B is to the 4B sort of like what a flugelhorn is to the cornet. A rich but more mellow sound and harder to get brightness into the sound.

Don't agree. Slightly darker in sound than the King 4B, yes, but not near as much difference than flugel and cornet. Not even the darkest or melllowest 8.5" bell tenor I own .. see above ..

Just in case anyone is interested, this thread
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8737
has a lot of discussion on this same topic and also includes some pics to help figure out which version of the 5B you're looking at.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:24 am

davebb wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:51 am The 0.547 5B is to the 4B sort of like what a flugelhorn is to the cornet. A rich but more mellow sound and harder to get brightness into the sound.

The differences are a lot more subtle than that. That extra .5" bell isn't nearly as a big deal as the rest of the horn, all things equal which in this case they largely are in my experience.

While I would definitely agree that the difference in sound is not nearly as much as cornet vs. flügel, I should point out that it's not just an extra half inch on the bell - the 5B/1480/88HKO bell has a larger throat than the one used on the 4B.

I play my 5b Symphony (9" Bell) on a daily basis with a Klier 5B and it has a full, rich and warm sound. It is definitely not a bass but it has a nice bright sound in the upper registers.
For me the 5b is a perfect addition to my Lawler ... although, owning a Duo Gravis some day is circling my mind already for a longer time, now! Elbblech usually always has one or two "in stock".

I'm the black sheep here. I definitely consider my 5B a small bass!
I've owned / played bach 50, conn 73, yamaha bass, k&h bass, holton bass, shires bass, large bore yamaha tenors, bach 42, conn 88, large bore sovereign tenor. Plus smaller horns that don't compare!
I've played my 5B as bass in big bands, brass bands, concert bands & orchestras.
My conn 73, 9.5 bell, .562 bore, double trigger bass played better as a tenor than the 5B!

I've played a 5b before. It is a rich warm full sounding trombone indeed, but it is not as bassy as a normal bass.
It still is able to play in the higher regions, whereas my bass really struggles (better said, I struggle on the bass).
The King setup looks nice, and rigid, but even after owning a 2104b for 6 to 7 years, I'd never go back to King.
Somehow the 5b didn't make it for me in terms of playability and feel. The triggers on a King never been my favorite triggers, and that combined with the somewhat heavier blow on a King (at least for me on that particular 2105 and 2104) made me go to other brands.

I've played 1 2b Silver Sonic with I believe a gold bell, that was a whole different league on it's own, but for the big Kings, I'll pass to be honest.

But hey, it's just an opinion, so don't take it too seriously

Taking into consideration the manufacturers various methods of identifying instrument models (Re: specs, finishes, et al),
I feel it would help keep the discussions on the same subject and out of the "one-upmanship" realm if we would do a little research...
As to this topic, my very first and all-around favorite horn (I used a Mt. Vernon 1 ½G ) was the following:

In spite of having to carry it around, I don’t know how heavy the bass bone book is in our big band. I played it on a Duo-Gravis with a 1 1/2G. The guy that took the part over is using a Blessing “88H.” He has some Bach megatone mouthpiece and he sounds iokay with it, in the blend.

I have a straight Bach 42 with an oversized gold brass bell on it. I like it for orchestra and concert band. I felt like it was more Teutonic rather than being on the flugelhorn side in a comparison to cornet. I have played a bass part with it in a pinch.

If my self concept strictly were playing bass as a doubler, I would consider using a LT42AG or 5B. No worries. Some doublers might play a Duo-Gravis. When I am on lead, I want something less than 0.490 inches. When I am on bass, I prefer the Duo-Gravis. I am not judgmental.

We had a guy playing a King 3BF on first in the Tulsa Philharmonic, which no longer exists. In the blend, he sounded okay. Some of it depends on where you are at and what the expectations are. A King 3BF is probably an outlier for most orchestras.

One conductor with a PhD in education that I had claimed that the Paris Symphony played with Bach 6 trombones. It is possible and might make sense. I’ve heard some symphony trombone sections playing with rather large, politically correct equipment get bad reviews for sticking out. Maybe we should examine our paradigms. Who is the orchestra, what is the goal, and what typically gets on the program?

Incidentally, Doc Sevrinson was the pops conductor for the Tulsa Philharmonic for a couple of seasons. The demise was a result of the union driving the orchestra into making all positions full time, as opposed to part time players with lead parts covered by educators at The University of Tulsa.