TromboneChat

Hey everyone.
What would be your "Dream" Bass trombone?
Mine would be a King Duo Gravis Silver Sonic with the triggers split.

Mine would be one of two things...1 of which I'm halfway to achieving. My current Gen 2 62H has had a Butler slide put on it and I'm going to be getting a Butler bell put on it. The other would be also like you, a Duo Gravis with triggers split. I wouldn't go for silversonic myself but I get it.

I dunno. An old 70H would be nice. It was an Elkhart 62H but I'm already getting that. So i guess a 70H and a 73H to round out my Conn basses.

Based on everything I've played, my 72H with independent rotors is my favorite. But I would really love to have the Shires I had built for me at an ITF one year for orchestral playing.

I think I’d be pretty happy if the Benge 290 I recently sent to Partch in Toronto came back in really nice shape for a 30 year old horn.

Any nice dual rotor really

My original dream horn was going to be a Shires with these specs...
–B62L slide, possibly B62LNYC (longer than normal)
–independent rotors
–BDCS tuning slide (seamed Deutsch brass, C taper)
–BI 2GMT7 bell (Conn style in gold (really rose) brass)

But now that I know that M&W will build a bass with the smaller 7xH taper, the dream horn has shifted to that with independent rotors.

The real question is if it will have the classic 7xH proportions or modern proportions. I'd like the former for the long slide.

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:20 pm But now that I know that M&W will build a bass with the smaller 7xH taper, the dream horn has shifted to that with independent rotors.

The real question is if it will have the classic 7xH proportions or modern proportions. I'd like the former for the long slide.

I didn't know that. I would be extremely interested if they did it with the long slide, but even with modern proportions I'd love to try one.

I'm not sophisticated enough to know the differences. My King 7B is dream enough for me.

I would have to say the Greenhoe GB5-3G that is my main horn now.

I think I am very lucky to have most of what I could call dream horns for what I do with my playing. However I do have a dream Contra. Lätzch SL610

I have played on a lot of horns over the years... The bass I play now is the best bass trombone I’ve ever played.

I gotta say I'm with Bruce on this one. I haven't played enough basses that I've liked to really pick a dream horn. I've spent a deal of time and lucre in search of a bass bone that is really just a trombone that plays low notes. It would be light, small, and versatile. Most of the new horns I've played drive like F-250 4wd pickup, and I'd be looking for a Subaru Outback. I did play a Bach 50b3 that I liked, once. I've played several tweener horns that I wouldn't mind if they were equipped to play bass (which to me means a second valve - but that could be a plugin valve).

Most "bass trombone" parts are really just 3rd or 4th bone parts, and most, truth be told, could be played on any tenor with a trigger. Not many of them are really tuba parts. You spend a lot of time on the staff.

If I had to piece one together today, I'd get something like a Holton tr159 with a removable plugin valve. 547/562 wide slide. Large taper bell, 9" dia. Appropriate (removable) leadpipe. 2 mouthpieces, something 1 1/4G size (for bass playing), and one about 3g size (for 3rd/4th parts or higher). It might have a single valve section and a double valve section instead of the plugin. Bb/f/d tuning.

I just finished piecing together my dream bass trombone this week:

Bell Section: Vintage Elkhart Conn 60/62h Bell mounted to Shires Dependent Rotors by M&W
TS: Shires B in Yellow Brass
Slide: Shires B62YC
Leadpipe: Sterling M/K GR

I wish I had this setup 20 years ago....

A featherweight bass: Butler bell & slide, Latzsch carbon fiber independent valves. carbon fiber attachment tubing.

Mine is being built as we speak!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:10 pm I'm not sophisticated enough to know the differences. My King 7B is dream enough for me.

Bruce is on point. Love my 7B now that I put an Axe Handle on it to fix the ergonomic issues. Even better would be a unicorn of a horn, a Mono Gravis. Think Duo Gravis with one valve.

Kevbach33,
A bass could be built with either long slide/short bell (ala Conn 7xH) or, shorter slide/longer bell (as is more commonly made) Customer choice.

Honestly I think I have both of mine!

Brasslab modified 1965 Holton 169 I purchased from Chris Stearn. Indy Bach valves with Chuck wrap. Early TR180 slide. This one has some magic in it.

And my other Holton. 1966 Holton 169/185 with Birds nest valve lightly mofied by Jack Schatz. D slide for the second valve, split triggers and a brass lab pipe. This is a special horn which isn't not explicitly marked a E185 or TR185 but based on the specs and markings looks like a 169... Who cares it plays amazing!

Only other bass I could imagine even wanting is a cherry stock early TR185. I have special place in my heart for the TR185's from around 1966-67.

A Conn "Fuchs" (have recently tried one) with the X - factor sound component my Holton E185 have... With a plug in Valve would be my dream bass trombone.. I am very happy with my E185 without the "Y-factor" of the Fuchs, though.... Cant get greedy..

I've got a whole bunch of dream horns, the final collection from a lifetime of buying and selling. Not looking for anything.... and not one of them plays itself.....

Chris

Olds george roberts bell with multiple flare options, .562 rotax valves in F/G tuning, super short throws on both, and a lightweight slide.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:10 pm I'm not sophisticated enough to know the differences. My King 7B is dream enough for me.

I think the 7B is a fantstic horn! But my hands does not like its ergonomy.
Some Holtons are very good, some are not. Some Bach are very good, some are crap, some Yamaha are very good, actually not many are crap. My favo horn right now is made by Lars Gerdt in Stockholm.

goldendomer04 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:18 pm I just finished piecing together my dream bass trombone this week:

Bell Section: Vintage Elkhart Conn 60/62h Bell mounted to Shires Dependent Rotors by M&W
TS: Shires B in Yellow Brass
Slide: Shires B62YC
Leadpipe: Sterling M/K GR

I wish I had this setup 20 years ago....

E38524D8-BA63-482A-8828-6BF26399E679.jpeg

So all Shires but the bell flare and the lead pipe. What's this sound like?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:30 pm Mine is being built as we speak!

Please do tell.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:58 am My favo horn right now is made by Lars Gerdt in Stockholm.

Would love to hear more about your horn and Lars Gerdt!

I find this thread rather fascinating. The vast majority of contributors are favoring or "dreaming" of bass trombones with the more narrow tapers like Kings and Conns. I know that many people love the older Conns, but I am surprised to see that the Kings have such a following. I am not able to get my "ideal bass trombone sound" on those models....they play too bright for me.

I favor a broader sound that requires a wider-taper bell....of the Bach 50 tradition. Thus, my dream horn is something that I am in the process of collecting parts to build. It will probably look something like this: Shires BII 7GM bell, Shires C tuning slide (might end up being a seamed tuning slide), double Instrument Innovations axials, and a .562-.578 dual bore slide (might end up being similar to the Shires Bollinger slide).

I am surprised that there have not been more people "dreaming" of a bass trombone that has a broader taper bell. For me, some of it might be sound concept......I probably have a different bass trombone sound that I am trying to achieve. A bigger part of it is that I require larger equipment in order to achieve a bass trombone sound. If others can achieve the same sound that I seeking on more compact equipment.....kudos to them!

Re: Mr. Hinckley’s comment above, how would the Benge 290 bell taper compare?

Thein, Ben Van Dijk model 547/562 slide. Assuming someone buys it for me

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:10 pm I'm not sophisticated enough to know the differences. My King 7B is dream enough for me.

Gotta second that thought. Were I younger (i.e. not retired) I might well have looked into a new custom Shires. That being said, and with performing opportunities as they are in our pandemic environment, I have my hands full with my current equipment!

you people, you'll have me spending money again

But I must admit that I'm starting to wonder about the lighter weight of a Butler.

For me, the Benge 290 is a very unique instrument. The bell taper is wider, so it has that "Bach 50" characteristic and the rotary valves play quite open. However, it has a 10" bell flare, so (for me) it lacks some core just like some of the other 10" and 10.5" bells do. It also has a narrow, King-style slide with a tight leadpipe. Possibly it was designed to be balanced by making it smaller on the front end and more open on the bell side.

I consider the Benge 290 unique because has some "big bass trombone" elements and some "small bass trombone" elements. It's just like any trombone.....if it is the right match for the player, it can certainly be a dream horn.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:58 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:10 pm I'm not sophisticated enough to know the differences. My King 7B is dream enough for me.

I think the 7B is a fantstic horn! But my hands does not like its ergonomy.
Some Holtons are very good, some are not. Some Bach are very good, some are crap, some Yamaha are very good, actually not many are crap. My favo horn right now is made by Lars Gerdt in Stockholm.

Is the Horn made by Lars Gerdt a bass?... I see in his website a TIS tenor?

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:24 am

goldendomer04 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:18 pm I just finished piecing together my dream bass trombone this week:

Bell Section: Vintage Elkhart Conn 60/62h Bell mounted to Shires Dependent Rotors by M&W
TS: Shires B in Yellow Brass
Slide: Shires B62YC
Leadpipe: Sterling M/K GR

I wish I had this setup 20 years ago....

E38524D8-BA63-482A-8828-6BF26399E679.jpeg

So all Shires but the bell flare and the lead pipe. What's this sound like?

Well, I have a 1970 Abilene 60h that Eric Swanson open wrapped and added a 2nd trigger for me that I love dearly. Compared to that, this horn is a bit warmer and not quite as nibble feeling, but the lower register is absolutely amazing. Initially I thought I had made a mistake with the YC slide. With the yellow and copper leadpipes I had, the setup rounded out my articulations more than I wanted and it was difficult to get the occasional “sizzle” I love on my tone. The sterling MK GR leadpipe had a bigger effect than I was expecting. (This has been my first experience with a sterling pipe.) Not only did it make a noticeable difference in the feel and response of the horn, it adds that “sizzle” when pushed.

Overall, the horn sounds very versatile to me. I am able to get an incredibly, creamy, round tone or that classic, commercial, sizzle. Articulations are a bit more rounded than my modified 60h and the upper register requires a bit more work, but it has been an amazing setup.

I hope this explanation helps....

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:55 am I find this thread rather fascinating. The vast majority of contributors are favoring or "dreaming" of bass trombones with the more narrow tapers like Kings and Conns. I know that many people love the older Conns, but I am surprised to see that the Kings have such a following. I am not able to get my "ideal bass trombone sound" on those models....they play too bright for me.

I favor a broader sound that requires a wider-taper bell....of the Bach 50 tradition. Thus, my dream horn is something that I am in the process of collecting parts to build. It will probably look something like this: Shires BII 7GM bell, Shires C tuning slide (might end up being a seamed tuning slide), double Instrument Innovations axials, and a .562-.578 dual bore slide (might end up being similar to the Shires Bollinger slide).

I am surprised that there have not been more people "dreaming" of a bass trombone that has a broader taper bell. For me, some of it might be sound concept......I probably have a different bass trombone sound that I am trying to achieve. A bigger part of it is that I require larger equipment in order to achieve a bass trombone sound. If others can achieve the same sound that I seeking on more compact equipment.....kudos to them!

I had a Holton TR180 for 30 years and switched to the King a year ago. The Holton was a great horn and might fit your sound concept better than the King, but the King just fits my personal playing preferences better than the Holton.

An M&W 929.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:24 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:30 pm Mine is being built as we speak!

Please do tell.

Well, Holton 185 is having levers split so I can actually use it... very excited for how that turns out. Also have Benn Hansson building me a bell section to end all bell sections, it'll be a monster instrument when done.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:53 pm Kevbach33,
A bass could be built with either long slide/short bell (ala Conn 7xH) or, shorter slide/longer bell (as is more commonly made) Customer choice.

This knowledge pleases me.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:55 am I find this thread rather fascinating. The vast majority of contributors are favoring or "dreaming" of bass trombones with the more narrow tapers like Kings and Conns. I know that many people love the older Conns, but I am surprised to see that the Kings have such a following. I am not able to get my "ideal bass trombone sound" on those models....they play too bright for me.

In my case I came to the trombone from tuba, so I naturally have what some may call a "dark", "warm" or "round" sound to my playing. Because of that, my ideal setup would be something on the more compact end of the spectrum to balance this tendency.

I favor a broader sound that requires a wider-taper bell....of the Bach 50 tradition. Thus, my dream horn is something that I am in the process of collecting parts to build. It will probably look something like this: Shires BII 7GM bell, Shires C tuning slide (might end up being a seamed tuning slide), double Instrument Innovations axials, and a .562-.578 dual bore slide (might end up being similar to the Shires Bollinger slide).

A big setup like this would sound too dull and "woofy" for me, having tried a Getzen 3062AF (yellow bell) with a Schilke 59 (not a huge mouthpiece by any means) and not liking it. Not sure if it was the axial flow valves, dual bore slide or something else. On the other hand, I thought a Bach 50K3 (yup, balanced valves) was pretty nice...if I were doing more wind band or orchestral playing. I also have experience playing a Conn 71H and really enjoyed it when I did, so maybe I'm biased towards this compact profile.

I am surprised that there have not been more people "dreaming" of a bass trombone that has a broader taper bell. For me, some of it might be sound concept......I probably have a different bass trombone sound that I am trying to achieve. A bigger part of it is that I require larger equipment in order to achieve a bass trombone sound. If others can achieve the same sound that I seeking on more compact equipment.....kudos to them!

If I played bass trombone in wind band or orchestra at any point in high school (not often enough, and my high school didn't (and still doesn't) have an orchestra) maybe my concept would be different. Alas, those were my peak tuba days. Besides, I'd rather my bass trombone sound blend with the tenors in a big band, which is a lot of work on a big, 10" belled bass.

Different strokes and all that. I tip my cap to those able to achieve a compact-ish sound on large profile bass trombones.

I got mine. Can’t imagine a better horn.

My Shires Tru-Bore bass is far better than I am at this game.

Ronnie

In response to Crazy4Tbone86
"I find this thread rather fascinating. The vast majority of contributors are favoring or "dreaming" of bass trombones with the more narrow tapers like Kings and Conns. I know that many people love the older Conns, but I am surprised to see that the Kings have such a following. I am not able to get my "ideal bass trombone sound" on those models....they play too bright for me."
I`m primarily a Tenor trombone player. Since retiring, I`ve started taking bass Trombone as a serious double. At present my horn is an older Yamaha 321 single trigger bass. Love it. Great sound , easy to play. That being said, My sound concept is not a huge Orchestral sound. The sound I`m going for is more like the 1960`s/`70`s bass Trombone.
I worked for years with guys that had that sound and sounded beautiful. A , I guess, more compact sound rather than a big, broader sound. Hence my "Dream Horn" tended towards an "Old School: instrument

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:15 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:24 am
Please do tell.

Well, Holton 185 is having levers split so I can actually use it... very excited for how that turns out. Also have Benn Hansson building me a bell section to end all bell sections, it'll be a monster instrument when done.

Cool. So you have a 185 with side by side levers? That's unique. I have a 180 sitting here from '67 with the old roller triggers that I'm going to have converted soon-maybe to something really interesting.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:52 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:15 pm

Well, Holton 185 is having levers split so I can actually use it... very excited for how that turns out. Also have Benn Hansson building me a bell section to end all bell sections, it'll be a monster instrument when done.

Cool. So you have a 185 with side by side levers? That's unique. I have a 180 sitting here from '67 with the old roller triggers that I'm going to have converted soon-maybe to something really interesting.

It has dependent levers- you can only use the second valve by pressing it first, which presses both levers. If you press the F lever you can't use the other one! Not very useful if you want to play anything other than the Bartok gliss.

That's an early 180! 9.5"?

I've had one of mine built for me recently - a Mt Vernon 50 with a good pair of Hagmanns. It's wonderful playing a horn that feels better than my skillset, feels like something to live up to and work towards doing it justice.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:30 pm Mine is being built as we speak!

Yeah but knowing you, who can play any horn, it won't last. You'll be looking for something better before you know it!

My dream bass is probably the wessex Stearn model. It looks beautiful and everything I would want, but even now I have no money or excuses to buy one.

The is no way I could dream bigger than that.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:43 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:30 pm Mine is being built as we speak!

Yeah but knowing you, who can play any horn, it won't last. You'll be looking for something better before you know it!

Never settle

Never yet met a bass I liked better than my Holton.

If I could have something that played exactly like it, but with better valves (maybe F/G/Eb tuning) that would be the dream.

What is a dream horn ? For me it must have feel, sound and playability. When I pick it up and play that first note, it needs to feel 'wow'....every day, month and year. It needs to help me get to the sound I want to make, and one that fits with the people I work with. It needs to be easy to play with facility all over the range.
There's a lot of very expensive instruments out there that don't tick those boxes. I have six bass instruments that tick the boxes....that's stupidly lucky...or greedy. There are two uber examples that are beyond what I would have thought possible....again , I'm very lucky.
What are they ? There's no point in saying....they are not for sale and you can't buy something the same...and other people might hate them.

Chris

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:38 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:52 am

Cool. So you have a 185 with side by side levers? That's unique. I have a 180 sitting here from '67 with the old roller triggers that I'm going to have converted soon-maybe to something really interesting.

It has dependent levers- you can only use the second valve by pressing it first, which presses both levers. If you press the F lever you can't use the other one! Not very useful if you want to play anything other than the Bartok gliss.

That's an early 180! 9.5"?

Yes I have 2 of them-both made in '67 and each slightly different in playing characteristics. Also the playing slides are NOT interchangeable! Go figure. They come up occasionally but are more rare these days. Not to question your point about your 185 but I'm a bit confused. As the 185 was available as either a single valve instrument OR with the bird's nest plug in did someone before you make this into a dependent trigger setup? Any chance you have a pic of the horn? ALWAYS curious when someone has one that's unique. Thanks.