TromboneChat

...I know... This isn't "Trumpet herald" but maybe someone here has experience with herald trumpets. Long story short, we are trying to get a group together to play some fanfares, etc at the beginning of events or concerts and we pulled out our Besson herald trumpets. I've played trumpet, I've played bass trumpet, I've played Euphonium -- tenor herald trumpet takes the cake as the worst "professional" instrument I've ever played. I used my normal small bore tenor trombone mouthpiece in it, and none of the octaves lined up. Used my alto trombone mouthpiece in it and the octaves lined up but the partials were less lined up than before. That at least is workable. But the overall sound is terrible. Again, I've played trumpet and can make that work, or at least sound like a trumpet. Very passable on euph. A room full of full time brass musicians were in agreement that we probably need better herald trumpets, and we should buy some. So, here we go:

Anyone know of a brass maker who is creating really good sets of herald trumpets? We need the whole run: picc, Eb, Bb, Bb tenor, and Bass. They need to play in tune, and ideally be made of lighter weight, thinner brass. The Bessons we have had a bell stem that weighed more than my tenor trombone bell. On a trumpet...

I have heard that Kanstul makes great sets, but Kanstul is now BAC. I don't know if the quality is any good any more.

I'm sure there are some makers I'm missing. I heard of one maker in England that did sets for the Coldstream Guard and Grenadiers. Does Thein make heralds?

Also any other advice -- it seemed like my alto trombone mouthpiece worked great on the tenor trumpet. Is there something else I should be trying?

Thanks!

Smith-Watkins?

ithinknot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:57 am Smith-Watkins?

Yeah, are they any good? I saw them and they seem like they outfitted every british military band.

It would seem your choice is between second hand Besson and new Smith-Watkins . You know what they say .....if everyone says the same thing there is a chance they may be right!

As other said. smith -Watkins

Are they any good? In a word, yes

They are a boutique trumpet maker, the Smith is Dr Richard Smith well known instrument designer, and the Watkins was the late great Derek 'Mr Lead' Watkins and their instruments are now used by many top trumpet players

So yes they make great trumpets, and as you said their fanfare trumpets are used by all the important military bands here in the UK

Three votes eh? Sounds promising. What about Kanstul -- do they exist still or just in name only under BAC?

www.smithwatkins.com


Remember that the bell stems are normally made to support the heavy embroidered banners, that is why your bessons feel the way they do weight wise

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:05 am www.smithwatkins.com


Remember that the bell stems are normally made to support the heavy embroidered banners, that is why your bessons feel the way they do weight wise

Probably why they play horribly too. I couldn't believe how thick and heavy the bell was.

You wouldn't happen to know where the British groups source their banners from, would you?

There is a guy on FB right now with 10 Bach Strad herald trumpets. $1300 each.

The horntrader.com guy.

Anybody know what brand(s) the US Army Band Herald Trumpets use? They might use a mixture of brands. The last time I saw them, I think the trumpets had a mixture of bell stem styles.....some bell stems were straight out of the bottom half of the third valve. Other bell stems came out at the same place, bent upward and then straight out from there.

I also remember that the instruments were obviously customized because the leadpipes were bent on a couple of horns in order to accommodate players with downstream embouchures. This was done so that every instrument was at the same angle at the bell end.

I doubt any of the Kanstul stuff is being made yet. And herald trumpets are probably bottom of the list.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:40 am Anybody know what brand(s) the US Army Band Herald Trumpets use?

Wikipedia says Kanstul, FWIW. I found some stuff on the Army band's own site that also says Kanstul, but it's several years old.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:54 amThree votes eh? Sounds promising. What about Kanstul -- do they exist still or just in name only under BAC?

To the best of my knowledge, the Kanstul name was the one thing BAC didn't get when they bought out Kanstul.

Hi all,

At Pershing’s, we use primarily Kanstul horns, though I believe we have a few Bessons in our stock.
They play fine, concerning action and what not.
As the OP states, getting a good sound is difficult, at best. Even our disgustingly good euphonium players have had difficulty getting used to the blow. And intonation? Fuggedaboughtit.
I’m a decent valve player, and have fond memories of seeing the Heralds on television, so I was pretty determined to make a good sound. I’ve found the important thing is getting a tighter backbore to match the tubing it’s going into. Much like alto playing, gotta remember the air flow is smaller.
To the OP- I wish I had better advice, but our tenor horns are large shank... I’d use the biggest mouthpiece you can get away with, and try to get an hour or two on the beast before the next session. Good luck, I know the horn is fighting you.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:41 am I doubt any of the Kanstul stuff is being made yet. And herald trumpets are probably bottom of the list.

And they may never get that far down the list!

Thanks everyone, especially if you sent me a private message. As I feared, the sure bet (What Pershing's uses) seems to be in a changeover period, and even if BAC does make them currently, the necessary play testing and trials would be impossible for many reasons. The Smith-Watkins product looks great!

Somone is selling 10 bach strad fanfare trupmets on FB in the obsolete brass marketplace group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1832732033670227

The old B&H fanfare trumpets were truly truly dreadful but in their usual couldn't give a stuff attitude, the companies management never bothered to do anything about updating a design that was so old the bass one was pitched in G!!!

During the time I was involved with Rath here in the UK I made the bells for the first few batches of Smith Watkin's tenor and bass fanfare trumpets using the R10 and R4 mandrels and reducing the bell diameter accordingly.
We had the main body of the horns in the workshop as well which Richard Smith had assembled at his workshop near York and the finished instruments blew very well. ( The bass was Bb/F )

Don't know if Mick is still involved with the manufacture of these? as I left about 17 years ago

FWIW

BellEnd

I played a fanfare tpt twice in my UK service band time, and both times were played in situations that would require a health and safety assessment, and positive action today. With front heavy long belled instruments plus regimental banners, often played outdoors at great heights in strong winds, the build quality will be the least important thing on your mind as the wind beats around your face.
The combination of Castles, Cathedrals and fanfare trumpets is best avoided IMO.
I shudder when I think about now..

Kanstul is long gone. As far as I know, BAC purchased the factory leftovers - manufacturing equipment, jigs, fixtures, etc. plus perhaps some miscellaneous parts. They may have also acquired drawings / specifications / computer files / ... But I think they got little of Kanstul's manufacturing "know-how" - especially since most of the skilled personnel had left the building by the time Kanstul folded.

I doubt that there is much chance that BAC will re-introduce any of the Kanstul instruments that will be closely comparable to the originals (some of which were excellent). Perhaps best case they will use some Kanstul designs as models / steppingstones for new & improved brass instruments? And as JohnL noted, BAC cannot use the Kanstul name.

It's frustrating that the Kanstul page is still up, as if it was a working company. They could at least put "closed" up on the main page.

Wessex Tubas lists normal and tenor fanfare trumpets.
I have no idea what they’re like.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:18 am It's frustrating that the Kanstul page is still up, as if it was a working company. They could at least put "closed" up on the main page.

They'd have to pay someone to do that...

It will eventually go away; it's just a matter of which expires first - the domain name registration or the hosting contract.

Until Kanstul entered the pro horn market, they pretty much only made student horns under other names (they made stencils for Besson) and awful marching instruments, also under other names. When Chinese student instruments started flooding the market they switched to pro instruments under the Kanstul name, but I doubt the marching horns or herald trumpets ever got any R&D attention.

From what I hear, they are all basically bad. Playing on the Besson for about 30 minutes, I could tell that the bell was way thick and that was probably a likely cause of why it played pretty badly. The entire instrument was built like a brick. Maybe it's so that you can play as loudly as possible, but I've played plenty of very light horns that can cut.

A tabard/banner is heavy, but I don't think it would mess up the thinner gauge metals that Shires or Edwards are using on their stuff. That coupled with thinner tubing in the valve block would probably be a place to start.

Anyone played these Smith-Watkins horns?

My workplace has a set. Four Bb melody trumpets, two tenors and a bass.

They play well, in a fanfare trumpet kind of way. Solid intonation, good trumpet sound. Tight, as one would expect given the valve setup, but not prohibitively so.

It's a different beast if you've never really played one.

Between the weight/ergonomics with a banner attached, piston valves, and the bell so far away, it takes a certain approach. Important not to try to put out too much "mass," but to focus on clarity and trumpet like articulation.

I could live without the 4th valve on the bass horn. It adds a huge amount of mass in order to access a range that barely gets played during a fanfare, and given it's non-compensating, it creates a different set of issues if you do use it. When holding that horn, the shorter the fanfare, the better...

Andrew

The Smith Watkins cornets that are much loved here in the UK were actually made by Kanstul. Though designed by the said Watkins and Smith. Thats probably why Kanstul have been mentioned so much - Ziggy probably used their ideas and expertise in some of his models. I bumped into Richard Smith once when I was visiting Ziggy and Ziggy regarded him as something of a sound guru and spoke very highly of him. Who makes the cornets now Kanstul have gone I have no idea.

As a side note, at my first (and as it turned out) my only high school teaching gig in Arizona back in the early 90's I discovered in our inventory three FE Olds Herald trumpets, dating back to the early 70's. They were pretty mediocre as trumpets go, but they had a certain audience appeal for some holiday fanfares that we occasionally performed. I retired from the district in 2018, but last I heard, they were still in inventory, and my successor has employed them. Out of curiosity awhile back I searched online for these instruments and did find one for sale, but can't remember where.
Ironically I think BAC has the mandrels for FE Olds brasses as well, I do believe. At least I saw Mike Corrigan talking about them some time ago on a Facebook posting, though not herald trumpets specifically.

www.heraldfanfaretrumpets.com if the smith Watkins site dealing with fanfare and cavalry trumpets, looking at the list of users, US army band Europe has a set a f you have a contact for them.

Check DLA for govt surplus maybe?

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 6:32 am Check DLA for govt surplus maybe?

Based on the current NSN and MTOE nomenclature, not likely. Looks to be all Bessons.

Hit up Julian Ayers on the FB, I was in university at Duquesne with him on trombone then he went on to the army herald trumpets. I think he's a drum major now. He'd at least know the specs, if not have a source for you.