Mouthpiece for Olds Recording (R-15)

[Monkhouse]

I have an Olds Recording (R-15) straight horn and I'm trying to pair a mouthpiece to it. For those that play this model, what have you had success with? So far I haven't felt like anything I've tried works well with this horn, but I only have a handful of small shank sizes around. I know the Olds receiver is smaller than standard small shank. It's possible the mouthpiece gap is giving me issues with what I've tried so far. My pieces include King M21/M31, Bach 6.5AL, and an Olds 10. I'd previously tried an Olds 3, but that didn't work for me, so I sold it with an Olds Special. The M31 probably works the best throughout the range. Is there a modern piece that's comparable to this? Seems the King M31 has a relatively deep cup but narrower diameter. For whatever I get, I'll probably have the mouthpiece modified to fit the olds receiver, or go with a Doug Elliot set up.

[hyperbolica]

I play a Recording. I've had mouthpiece trouble too. I use DE stuff, and even on my other small tenors, I play a 104 rim. I got a special 3 shank to fit the smaller receiver from Doug, and use a D cup. I have a hard time playing the smaller diameter older mouthpieces. You tried deep and narrow, I'm going the other way - wide and shallow.

The horn has a great warm sound on the staff, but doesn't sound as nice up high, say more than an octave above tuning Bb.

I don't have a silver bullet for you, but I use the DE 104D3. The C cup might also work OK, it might bring the high range more into focus, but I'd hate to sacrifice the great warm sound on the staff. It's not ideal, and my feel may be distorted because of the other horns I play.

If you find something that works, especially in the upper range, please report back.

My Recording sits in the case quite a bit and might even get listed on the classifieds now and then because sometimes it feels dead and sometimes it feels brilliant. I go back and forth on this one a lot. This week I love it, and it's the only tenor I'm playing, but two weeks ago it was in the case.

[Monkhouse]

Thank you for the feedback. I seem to have a like/dislike relationship with this horn. I definitely prefer my 2b over it, and my 3b/f silversonic is also easier to play well. I have to work on the Recording to get the sound I want, so when I'm just blowing through something or sight reading I'll have plenty of notes that don't speak or resonate, and some that I just flat out miss. If I spent more time with it, I'd probably be able to overcome these challenges. I can't help but think the extra mouthpiece gap is a significant contributor to this. It's just the horn plays so much different from my other small bores (and my 88h) that without dedicated time to this horn, I take a step back when I play it.

[Doug Elliott]

Recordings are very different from other horns but they can have a huge sound. Not all of them need a smaller taper. Mine has a standard receiver.

My C+ or D cups, with a D3 shank, are good combinations for it.

[Posaunus]

Recordings are very different from other horns but they can have a huge sound. Not all of them need a smaller taper. Mine has a standard receiver.

My C+ or D cups, with a D3 shank, are good combinations for it.

Doug is, as usual, correct. Most Olds Recording trombones had the (undersized) Olds small shank receivers. Those can be played with standard small-shank mouthpieces, but not ideally, since they do not insert as far into the receiver as Olds-shank mouthpieces. I have a wonderful minty R-15 straight Recording (Fullerton, 1968). Doug is currently fabricating for me a proper Olds shank to use with his cup and rims.

But toward the end of their production (early 1970s in Fullerton), Olds modified the Recording receiver (and leadpipe, I presume) to accept standard small-shank mouthpieces. I've played a 1974 R-20 (F-attachment) Recording, and it plays great with a variety of mouthpieces. These were wonderful trombones - 0.495"/0.510" dual-bore, very robust, and (sort of like a King 3BF) versatile and rather chameleon-like, adaptable to a variety of playing situations. Their Achilles heel was probably the duo-octagonal inner slide tubes, which are difficult (probably now impossible) to replace when worn out. But these can be replaced with cylindrical tubes of the appropriate diameter.

[Doug Elliott]

Oddly, mine with the standard receiver is a mid-50's horn that I got in the mid-60's, so I'm sure it was never modified. It was my first horn - I started on it!

[Monkhouse]

Mine definitely has the smaller receiver, and I dated it 56-58.

Doug, What shape are your cups? And what differences do you get with various cup shapes?

I think my M31 is v-shape, and relatively deep. It seems to get a good sound throughout the range especially without letting low range suffer. If I could get something similar with an olds shank that'd probably suit me.

[Doug Elliott]

My cups are what you might call pear-shaped. They are neither cup nor funnel, they are a combination between those. They have a very even response through the entire range.

[Posaunus]

Here are some photos to show the different Olds small-bore trombone mouthpiece receivers. Most early instruments, made in Los Angeles and then (from ~1956 to the early 1970s) in Fullerton, California, had a slightly “undersize” receiver, so standard small-shank mouthpieces would not insert as far. Sometime around 1972 (when Zig Kanstul left the company), at least some of the small-bore trombones (in particular, the Recording) were redesigned with a soldered insert (and probably a different leadpipe) which accommodated standard small-shank mouthpieces.

Olds trombones were provided with Olds mouthpieces with a taper that seated perfectly into their receivers. The most common for small-bore trombones was the Olds 3 – slightly smaller than (and quite different from) a Bach 12C. Olds made a somewhat larger Olds 1 which was provided with some larger-bore trombones, and also a number of other limited production mouthpieces - all with the Olds taper.

Shown in the next few posts (I can only add 3 photos/post):
1. Olds T15 Studio (Los Angeles, 1954) with an original Olds 3 mouthpiece and a Doug Elliott standard C3 Shank mouthpiece.
2. Olds R15 Recording (Fullerton, 1968) with (a) no mouthpiece, (b) an Olds 1* mouthpiece and (c) a DE standard C3 Shank.
3. Olds R20 Recording, with F-attachment (Fullerton, 1974) with (a) no mouthpiece, (b) a standard-shank Bach 9 mouthpiece, and (c) a DE standard C3 Shank.

Note that it is quite possible to play even the undersized-receiver Olds trombones with a standard small-shank mouthpiece - they just stick out a little farther. But Doug Elliott will make a shaft for his mouthpieces that fits the receiver perfectly, which I think (hope) will be better!

[Posaunus]

2. Olds R15 Recording (Fullerton, 1968) with (a) no mouthpiece, (b) an Olds 1* mouthpiece and (c) a DE standard C3 Shank.

[Posaunus]

3. Olds R20 Recording, with F-attachment (Fullerton, 1974) with (a) no mouthpiece, (b) a standard-shank Bach 9 mouthpiece, and (c) a DE standard C3 Shank.

[FEWeathers]

In the photo with the Olds 1*, see how it fits into the receiver like the regular Elliot shank? My 1* does the same on any Olds horn, too.

So my theory is that the starred Olds mouthpieces were sold with the regular tapers so they could be played on, and bought by, folks who'd bought their competitors horns.

I haven't found anything published that supports my theory, but I'm sticking to avoiding starred Olds mouthpieces.

Like Doug, I've an Olds Super ('46) that takes normal taper mouthpieces just fine.

[FEWeathers]

For the OP (Monkhouse), if you have any regular (not Olds) small shank mouthpieces that fit the Recording receiver @.95" depth, or above, you're probably good to go. Put 'em in, mark the shank with a sharp pencil, pull 'em out, and measure from the mark to the end of the shank.

I've had pretty good luck in this department with Schilkes, and Hammonds, as well as with a vintage Bob Reeves trombone mouthpiece (pre-BrassArk).

The Schilkes, across the line, are longer than comparable Bach mouthpieces (LOA 3.23" vs. 3.09" for Bachs, for example), and in many cases they fit pretty well in the Olds receivers.

Examples: I've a Schilke 51C4 that fits my Recordings right at 1.00," while a Hammond 11M went down to 1.02". I've a vintage Schilke 47 that fits my '47 Super at 1.04", while a modern Schilke 45 goes to a depth of .990" in that horn.

Aside from Olds shanks, and Doug's Olds shank, that's about as good as it's going to get. Bach mpc's of similar size (rim + cup) though, fit down at about .75", or less. Marcinkiewicz mouthpiece shanks are especially incompatible with Olds receivers, where numbers like .67" pop up.

Hope that helps.

[BGuttman]

I want to point out that reaming Olds receivers was commonly done back in the day. I have a 1925 Olds (no model) where modern small shank mouthpieces fit fine.

If you have an Olds trombone, try a standard small shank before you decide to drop down the rabbit hole. If the mouthpiece goes at least 7/8" (21 mm) in you should be OK.

[Monkhouse]

I’ve tried a bunch of mouthpieces. I’m sure the receiver isn’t bored out.