TromboneChat

Hey Guys - I recently picked up a Bach 42BOF - fantastic axe, BTW and extremely free blowing in the open position.

- Today I attempted to oil this rotor for the first time. However, is the valve cap supposed to be removable by unscrewing it? It certainly doesn’t seem like it!

- Speaking of rotor oil, when I got this and went to get a couple of bottles of Blue Juice (for oiling the inside of the valve not the spindle or mini ball linkages) my sales guy said “you should not use Blue Juice for higher end trombone valves”. I was surprised to hear this recommendation, and he said only synthetic oils should be used, preferably Hetman. I had used Hetman for years when I was playing euphonium and bass trombone (I was playing the Doug Yeo Yamaha bass) and in both instances I observed a build up of yellowish polymer material. When I went to the Army tuba-euphonium conference, I spoke to one of the well respected repair guys at Dillon, and he told me to use the Blue Juice and ditch the Hetman for this very reason. I haven’t observed any build up sense. But is it inappropriate to use something like that for the inside of the rotor? I have been impressed with how clean my horns have seemed to be by using Blue Juice, but if it will cause damage to the instrument, I want to know that now.

1. Yes, it should unscrew. Sounds like it was overtightened by the person before you

2. I'd use Ultra-Pure. Similar action and protection you get from Hetman but with no build-up.

Loosening overtightened threads can be aided by moderate heat (hot water from your faucet should be fine) and gentle, repeated taps around the whole circumference of the thread with a wooden or plastic mallet.

Hey Guys - I had to take off the leather neck guard I already installed, and that enabled me to get the leverage to finally unscrew it!

I’m inclined to believe that petroleum based lubricants like Blue Juice will not harm my new 42BOF’s rotor. What do y’all think? What I love about Blue Juice is that if you regularly use it, it keeps the internals spotless.

This will probably cause an uproar from the devout Hetman believers, but Blue Juice is great. I use it exclusively. I would highly recommend it.

Also, I use Blue Juice on the spindles as well. If it's worn and you're getting noise from spindle play, then spindle oil is appropriate. Otherwise, you don't really need it.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:35 am This will probably cause an uproar from the devout Hetman believers, but Blue Juice is great. I use it exclusively. I would highly recommend it.

Thanks!

Also, I found this blurb on the Shires site:

“ Here at the factory we use and recommend Hetman products for lubrication, but almost any oil product will protect and lubricate well if it is applied frequently enough.”

I've never had build-up from Hetman oils. You must be crazy. Let's have an internet war.

That was a joke, though it's true I've never had build-up from Hetman.

I've been using mostly Hetman (#2 Piston for valve, #12 Rotor for spindle, #14 Bearing & Linkage) for several years. Great products - no problem, no build-up.

But I've also had good results with Blue Juice Valve Oil (dripped down the neck to lubricate the rotor).

To each his own, I guess.

It was only until I switched to Hetman’s that a sticky 2nd valve worked properly. Before that I used T2 and Yamaha products (on my Yamaha horn).

Actually, most of the build up I’ve observed with Hetmans was with the piston oil on euphonium valves. It would develop this yellowish polymer like substance in the valve ports. I was never close enough to observe it on a trombone rotor except for the Yamaha Doug Yeo model bass - there the tuning slide is very close to the second valve. But to be fair, this was more than 10 years ago.

Hetman "build up" is probably caused from using "not hetmans" tuning slide grease or oil (euph slides)

Does not play nice with others.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:59 pm Hetman "build up" is probably caused from using "not hetmans" tuning slide grease or oil (euph slides)

Does not play nice with others.

I got buildup with only Hetman products, on many horns over many years.

I also love Blue Juice. I'm having my euphonium cleaned right now and having my tech oil the valves with Blue Juice. I get a better action with Blue Juice almost no matter the valve. I have to oil more frequently than Hetman, but that does not personally bother me. The horn stays cleaner and the action doesn't get "gummy" like with Hetman eventually. You can't harm a valve with Blue Juice or any oil that is intended for brass instruments! Just don't mix petroleum based oil with a synthetic- THAT gums things up!

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:05 pm … Just don't mix petroleum based oil with a synthetic- THAT gums things up!

Uh oh.

The key is to oil regularly and adequately!!

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:05 pm You can't harm a valve with Blue Juice or any oil that is intended for brass instruments! Just don't mix petroleum based oil with a synthetic- THAT gums things up!

Has this really been shown to be true, or is it some folklore?

I've successfully used Blue Juice (or other name brands) [petroleum] Valve Oil with Hetman's [synthetic] Rotor Oil, and have never encountered a problem. I now use Hetman's Valve Oil, but did not flush the Blue Juice out before the oil change. No problems. I do oil everything frequently and liberally.

And, for what it's worth (not much, I expect), before I switched to all-synthetic for my cars, I used "synthetic blend" motor oils. Never had any issues.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:24 pm
I've successfully used Blue Juice (or other name brands) [petroleum] Valve Oil with Hetman's [synthetic] Rotor Oil, and have never encountered a problem. I now use Hetman's Valve Oil, but did not flush the Blue Juice out before the oil change. No problems. I do oil everything frequently and liberally.

I hate to be the guy to speak up again, but yes. I loaned out my Yamaha euphonium to someone once, that lubed the valves with Blue Juice (after I had used only Yamaha synthetic). The valves were awful afterwards.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:24 pm

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:05 pm You can't harm a valve with Blue Juice or any oil that is intended for brass instruments! Just don't mix petroleum based oil with a synthetic- THAT gums things up!

Has this really been shown to be true, or is it some folklore?

Yes. I had a double case where one trombone had the bell stored upside down. Hetmans from valve leaked into the tuning slide, which had petroleum based grease on it. I have no desire to recreate this, so please just take my word for it.

The grease turned into a honey like substance that then went back into the valve when I played it. Horrendous to clean up.

BurgerBob says Hetmans builds up, but Hetmans also dissolves into itself, regardless of what thickness the number you use is. So, yes, I had a trombone in storage and the valve became sluggish after three years of not using it. I oiled it, let it sit and drain, then oiled it again and it was back to 100%.

I oil my rotor every three days or so on the horns I play every day -- never once had an issue with build up.

Build up can be from a lot of things, like drinking soda or eating before you play. Who knows.

I have had several horns in the shop where I took the valve out and it was absolutely black inside. I asked the customers what oil they used and they said Hetman. Take that for what it's worth.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:24 pm

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:05 pm You can't harm a valve with Blue Juice or any oil that is intended for brass instruments! Just don't mix petroleum based oil with a synthetic- THAT gums things up!

Has this really been shown to be true, or is it some folklore?

I’ve read from a few techs that one of the benefits of Hetman is that it has no problem mixing with petroleum based lubricants. I’ve never tested that, but I have also read that older synthetics like Alisyn do not mix with petroleum based lubes.

I need your advice. I have a Bach 42BO Centennial and I recently put a little rotor oil in the valve. I didn't drip it into the neck, however, I unscrewed the cap and dripped a couple of drops onto the little circle. Now the valve is very sluggish and slow-moving. What is the best way to clean this out? Will I need to figure out how to disassemble the whole assembly, or is it as simple as giving it a warm water bath, perhaps with some Dawn to break up the thick oil? Please help!

What did you do besides dripping the oil? Adding rotor oil to the spindle of a rotary valve should be a normal activity. The sluggishness has to be from something else.

Nevertheless, if you want to flush out the thicker oil, you can do it with some lighter valve oil (piston valve oil, for example). But I suspect you did something else and just thinning the oil won't help.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:05 am
Nevertheless, if you want to flush out the thicker oil, you can do it with some lighter valve oil (piston valve oil, for example). But I suspect you did something else and just thinning the oil won't help.

Should I not add more oil to the spindle and instead go to the pipe, or is more oil to the spindle the better way to go? I'm definitely not an instrument technician, so I really don't want to mess things up!

Just take the valve apart and clean it

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:28 am Just take the valve apart and clean it

That would work for somebody who was experienced in this action. I think a cleaning should be done by a Tech (and not the Gee-Tar Doktor at the Gee-Tar and Keyboard Shoppe).

@SackbutRoyale: just put the thinner oil on top of the thicker oil. They should mix and dilute properly. If this is starting to sound like I'm speaking fluent Nepalese, take it to somebody who can disassemble and clean the valve.

I adamantly caution AGAINST any water that feels warm to the touch!!

And as mentioned, regular oiling is the key to keeping things moving!!

SackbutRoyale wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:48 am I need your advice. I have a Bach 42BO Centennial and I recently put a little rotor oil in the valve. I didn't drip it into the neck, however, I unscrewed the cap and dripped a couple of drops onto the little circle. Now the valve is very sluggish and slow-moving. What is the best way to clean this out? Will I need to figure out how to disassemble the whole assembly, or is it as simple as giving it a warm water bath, perhaps with some Dawn to break up the thick oil? Please help!

How heavy was the rotor oil? Brand and Weight?

Depending on how sluggish the valve is I might just put really light oil in and keep on playing for a few days if you don’t have a lot coming up performance wise. I just got a new set of valves for my bass, they were fast when they arrived, but with Covid I disassembled them and washed everything, then re-oiled with my preferred oils. The valves are a bit sluggish, but are speeding up each day. Try oiling the valve before you play and when you are done playing. Should speed up thinning out the rotor oil, and also help fight corrosion. It also took me years to find oils that worked with my horns.

Right now my Shires Bass likes Ultra Pure, Tenor likes Ultra Pure Ultra Light, Willson Euphonium likes Yamaha Light Synthetic, Besson likes 5 Starr Red, Olds Marching Trombone likes 5 Starr Red. The last two have much older well played in valves.

I use either Hermann Medium Bering Oil for the links and spindles, or Superslick. I also mix and match everything a lot. If things gum up I don’t feel worried about taking things apart, but I did repairs and cleanings of brass instruments for a local music store for 8 years, so be careful, if you are uncomfortable find someone local you can trust for a yearly cleaning.

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:06 am I adamantly caution AGAINST any water that feels warm to the touch!!

In all cases in general, or just in SackbutRoyal’s example?

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:06 am And as mentioned, regular oiling is the key to keeping things moving!!

Yes.

Any lacquered horn in general

I can't use any synthetic on my Kanstul bass. Every time I do, the valves bind up. I've been forced back to Al Cass because that was all I had, but after reading this thread over at the DWerden euphonium forum, I've started on the Blue Juice.

The build up and the white/yellow deposits are from bacteria that eat the stuff in Hetmans and some others. Blue Juice has some sort of anti-microbial in it. Read the thread if you're interested in this.

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... -valve-oil

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:58 pm Any lacquered horn in general

Well, some lacquered horns (those using epoxy lacquer) can withstand hot water without peeling. The orange King lacquer is one. My Yamaha 682 seemed to be tolerant of hot water. If you aren't sure, keep it away from hot water.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:09 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:28 am Just take the valve apart and clean it

That would work for somebody who was experienced in this action. I think a cleaning should be done by a Tech (and not the Gee-Tar Doktor at the Gee-Tar and Keyboard Shoppe).

@SackbutRoyale: just put the thinner oil on top of the thicker oil. They should mix and dilute properly. If this is starting to sound like I'm speaking fluent Nepalese, take it to somebody who can disassemble and clean the valve.

It's really very easy to do, though. I was worried the first time I did it, and then realized it was easy.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:09 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:28 am Just take the valve apart and clean it

That would work for somebody who was experienced in this action. I think a cleaning should be done by a Tech (and not the Gee-Tar Doktor at the Gee-Tar and Keyboard Shoppe).

This is exactly what I was trying to say! Thank you for the response! I will try more oil (thinner, of course)

Bonearzt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:06 am I adamantly caution AGAINST any water that feels warm to the touch!!

And as mentioned, regular oiling is the key to keeping things moving!!

Thank you. I appreciate your help!

SackbutRoyale wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:45 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:05 am
Nevertheless, if you want to flush out the thicker oil, you can do it with some lighter valve oil (piston valve oil, for example). But I suspect you did something else and just thinning the oil won't help.

Should I not add more oil to the spindle and instead go to the pipe, or is more oil to the spindle the better way to go? I'm definitely not an instrument technician, so I really don't want to mess things up!

OP here, just saw that this thread was resurrected. I always use a petroleum based oil on the rotor innards and spindle oil on the spindle. Just a little on the spindle, and I flood the inside of the rotor with petroleum valve oil - usually Blue Juice. That always seems to work out sluggishness. As I mentioned earlier, when it comes to keeping the insides really clean, Blue Juice works best for me. But any light valve oil should be fine, including homemade valve oil - I use the Tubenet recipe of two drops of motor oil for every 2 oz of lamp oil - it really is cheap this way.

Just a follow up. I had been waiting on an order of Blue Juice after reading the others' texts, once I got it, I applied a few drops into the tubes leading to the valve. Worked it around a bit, now it works like a dream! Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it! Now I can go back to working on my excerpts without lagging!

Drop the oil in through the handslide receiver. Hold the horn bell up, depress the lever, to give the oil something to land on, and then rapidly use the valve to distribute. Don't drop it down the tuning slide tubes, as you run a good chance of pulling grease and dirt into the rotor.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:11 am Drop the oil in through the handslide receiver. Hold the horn bell up, depress the lever, to give the oil something to land on, and then rapidly use the valve to distribute. Don't drop it down the tuning slide tubes, as you run a good chance of pulling grease and dirt into the rotor.

Matthew,

Thanks for the validation. This is the way I've been lubing my rotors, and it's worked well!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:37 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:24 pm
I've successfully used Blue Juice (or other name brands) [petroleum] Valve Oil with Hetman's [synthetic] Rotor Oil, and have never encountered a problem. I now use Hetman's Valve Oil, but did not flush the Blue Juice out before the oil change. No problems. I do oil everything frequently and liberally.

I hate to be the guy to speak up again, but yes. I loaned out my Yamaha euphonium to someone once, that lubed the valves with Blue Juice (after I had used only Yamaha synthetic). The valves were awful afterwards.

Did you ask if they brushed their teeth and rinsed out their mouth before playing? Maybe they blew chunks down the leadpipe.

I've been mixing Yamaha Synthetic (Regular) and Blue Juice for going on 10 years now, and haven't experienced sluggish valves or found synthetic oil "slime" in the valve ports, like I did previously when I was using either just Yamaha Synthetic, or prior to that just Hetmans #3. (I started mixing them after exchanging PMs with Walter Barrett, aka Walt Trombone on the old Trombone Forum about some posts on TubeNet and Dave Werden's forum were people claimed to be mixing them with no ill effects. Walt checked with his contact at Yamaha and was assured that mixing them wasn't a problem.) On the other hand, my nephew (trumpet player) swears by Hetmans #1 and has never had problems with sluggish valves or the infamous Hetmans slime. On the other other hand, when I played his trumpet I started experiencing sluggish valves after about 45 min, at which point he tried it and said, "That's weird!" All of which suggests that, for me (ymmv), the "slime"—and the resultant valve sluggishness— is a product of a reaction between something in an individual's body chemistry [particularly one's saliva (and any dissolved or particulate organic/inorganic matter introduced via that mechanism )] and the valve oil.