TromboneChat

What brands/models have stock one piece bells?

All Bach Strads since the 1930s, some Shires, some Yamaha Xenos, some BACs...

some Courtois, some M&W, some Schilke

Im aware of bachs, are holtons one piece as well? What specific yamahas?

Helmut Voigt
Jürgen Voigt
Karl Mönnich
Lätzsch
Throja
… any German trombone

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:06 pm are holtons one piece as well?

None of the ones I've had or seen

I’m 99% sure my holton 180 bell is a one piece, i’m curious about the tenors, mainly the 158

I have a 9” yellow brass Holton tenor bell with no model number marked that’s 1-piece. My Selmer Bolero and Largo are both 1-piece.

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:03 pm I’m 99% sure my holton 180 bell is a one piece, i’m curious about the tenors, mainly the 158

You could be right. I could swear my 180 was two-piece but I haven't owned it in 8 years! My 185 is two-piece.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:23 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:03 pm I’m 99% sure my holton 180 bell is a one piece, i’m curious about the tenors, mainly the 158

You could be right. I could swear my 180 was two-piece but I haven't owned it in 8 years! My 185 is two-piece.

My 180 is a two piece. They changed the bells at some point from a 9.5" to a 10". Mine is a 10", maybe the 9.5's were one-piece?

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:06 pm Im aware of bachs, are holtons one piece as well? What specific yamahas?

As far as I know, all Yamaha Xeno have one piece bell. That is; every 8 series tenors and basses except YSL-820G(II) and YSL-823G(D).

I could have sworn the Holton 181 was a one piece bell... It's been ten years since I last played it though, and I didn't pay much attention to that detail.

All the trombones I have, including a Holton 168, have two piece bells.

Most Kanstul trombones, as I recall, had one piece bells; exceptions were the 750 & 760 "student" tenors, and the contrabass.

Any contrabass trombones out there with one piece bells?

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:03 pm

Any contrabass trombones out there with one piece bells?

Never checked until now, but my German '60s contra in gold brass is one piece.

Kanstul Trombones were all one piece bells I believe.

With Yamaha they use some one and some two piece.

No wonder I don't like Xenos, though I could have sworn I saw where the flare was fused on on a xeno I tried 8 years ago

Interesting thing about the Yamaha is they are one-piece, unsoldered bells. Very strange combination. I'm sure someone else does that but I'm not aware of any off the top of my head making such a combination.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:20 pm Interesting thing about the Yamaha is they are one-piece, unsoldered bells. Very strange combination. I'm sure someone else does that but I'm not aware of any off the top of my head making such a combination.

One piece or two piece, pretty much all of the major production horns have soldered rims. Only the Getzen custom reserve series have unsoldered rims.

I seem to recall a lot of Yamaha horns having bad acid bleed, so maybe Yamaha stopped doing them for that reason?

[edited]

I had thought Jupiter 1632 (.500 Fedchock) and 1634 (the .508) had one piece bells. I was wrong.

I seem to recall having "Lead Free Solder" on the Yamaha advertising in the not too distant past. I wonder if there's regulation in Japan, or where they export to, where they just decided they couldn't get a reasonable solder for the bell bead w/o lead and just decided to go unsoldered.

There is a European standard called "Reduction of Hazardous Substances" (RoHS) that effectively limits the amount of lead in alloys used in musical instruments. RoHS compliant solders use more silver and don't flow as nicely as the older lead solders. It's possible that the soldered bead under RoHS was not satisfactory and thus Yamaha went to unsoldered bell rims. I know my pre-RoHS Yamaha 682G had a soldered rim (and a 1-piece bell).

What about King? Two piece?, soldered?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:37 am What about King? Two piece?, soldered?

My 7B is 2 piece and soldered (from 1981).

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:06 pmWhat specific yamahas?

I have heard somewhere, that Yamaha bells and slides are pressed when warm; i.e that the brass is pressed into its bell (or slide) shape when warm. I also got that as an explanation to why Yamaha bells are unsoldered, since they are folded when warm with enough metal to form a bead.

Mind you: It's only hearsay from long ago, and I've never been able to confirm it or ask someone about it, so this could be way off.

PaulT wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:15 pm Jupiter 1632 (.500 Fedchock) and 1634 (the .508).

(Maybe some/all of the XO's as well? Don't know.)

According to the XO site, the 1634 is a 2 piece bell: https://www.xobrass.com/instruments/tro ... bones/1634

I don't think it specified about the 1632 or any of the larger horns. I'm only familiar with the 1634 as I have one.

As far as bell construction as a topic in general, I'm inclined to say that I prefer 1 piece based on the horns that I've had over the years. On large tenor I split time between a Yamaha 882OR (my horn) and a Shires Alessi (the army's horn). I prefer the Yamaha most of the time, though there are far too many variables beyond bell construction to attribute much to that. I've played various 1 and 2 piece model small tenors, large tenors, and euphoniums over the years, some of which I couldn't tell you what they were without looking it up first.

octavposaune wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:55 pm All Bach Strads since the 1930s, some Shires, some Yamaha Xenos, some BACs...

All Shires Type 5 bells are one-piece, and there are a handful of one-piece Type I bells that Steve Shires made up as an experiment.

ajeasley wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:08 pm

PaulT wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:15 pm Jupiter 1632 (.500 Fedchock) and 1634 (the .508).

(Maybe some/all of the XO's as well? Don't know.)

According to the XO site, the 1634 is a 2 piece bell: https://www.xobrass.com/instruments/tro ... bones/1634

I don't think it specified about the 1632 or any of the larger horns. I'm only familiar with the 1634 as I have one....

I was sure the 1632 was one piece, now I'm sure I was wrong. I can't imagine Jupiter changing design and build set up between two horns that are so closely related. With some horns I can spot the seam, not with this Jupiter (or any of my Yamahas).

Anyway, I edited my original post. I did note (from Jupiter's site) that the 1632 has a soldered bell (thin wire).

Yamaha use Plazuma Welding on their bell seams. This process basically fuzes the 2 pieces of material together in such a way that the seam is not visible.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:24 pm Yamaha use Plazuma Welding on their bell seams. This process basically fuzes the 2 pieces of material together in such a way that the seam is not visible.

Depends on which series. My 640 has the Two Piece welded bell, as does my YBL612.

The current Xeno orchestral tenor series all say they have "a thick-walled, one-piece brazed bell which has been hand-hammered"

They aren't clear on most of the other horns, except to say that they have a one or two piece bell.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:47 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:24 pm Yamaha use Plazuma Welding on their bell seams. This process basically fuzes the 2 pieces of material together in such a way that the seam is not visible.

Depends on which series. My 640 has the Two Piece welded bell, as does my YBL612.

The current Xeno orchestral tenor series all say they have "a thick-walled, one-piece brazed bell which has been hand-hammered"

Ah, cool! I'm not that "up" on Yamaha recent production. Interesting that they have come back to more traditional construction techniques in some areas.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:34 pmAh, cool! I'm not that "up" on Yamaha recent production. Interesting that they have come back to more traditional construction techniques in some areas.

They aren't exactly super forthcoming with the more detailed specs unfortunately. And there are a lot of "Japan only" models that it's nearly impossible to find out about. Someone sold a bunch at Dillon Music a year or so ago, and everyone was confused.

I did just look at my beat up YBL-613H, and even with the silver plating, I can see a seam running down the bottom of the bell in reflection.

All of the crazy Japan only models are out to try in the Ginza Yamaha store. They are mostly all WEIRD, like the 882V.

It's funny, they have all these weird Yamaha models available here, but everyone seems to want imported American made horns. They are super expensive here.

I’ve always thought the yamaha xenos were great, this is probably why.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:42 pm All of the crazy Japan only models are out to try in the Ginza Yamaha store. They are mostly all WEIRD, like the 882V.

It's funny, they have all these weird Yamaha models available here, but everyone seems to want imported American made horns. They are super expensive here.

Weird in what way, or how weird?

Yamaha is a strange manufacturer, but some of their instruments are really great.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:55 pm I’ve always thought the yamaha xenos were great, this is probably why.

Yeah, if the one piece bell resonates with you, that's probably a big factor.

I've owned one piece bell and two piece bell instruments. I can safely say that 1 piece vs. 2 piece is one of the least important reasons for me to select a horn. There are many more factors that enter into the equation.

Just as an aside, my Yamaha 682G (1 piece bell) had a bell transplant (a long, sad story) with a Shires 1G (2 piece bell) and it plays better than it ever did.

Digidog wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:00 amWeird in what way, or how weird?

Yamaha is a strange manufacturer, but some of their instruments are really great.

The Yamaha V valve is definitely "weird" in some ways, and they have never offered it outside Japan. The easiest way to describe it is a cross between an axial flow valve and an standard rotor.

They also have a LOT of Custom models, and the problem is trying to figure out what exactly they are. Like, the YSL-648R, YSL-882U, and the "custom" models like the YSL-8510, YSL-8425G. Dillon Music has used examples of all of those, and they have probably sat because no one really knows specifically what they are. I'm sure they are great horns, but compared to some other makers, Yamaha has made a ton of different models over the years.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:02 am I've owned one piece bell and two piece bell instruments. I can safely say that 1 piece vs. 2 piece is one of the least important reasons for me to select a horn. There are many more factors that enter into the equation.

Just as an aside, my Yamaha 682G (1 piece bell) had a bell transplant (a long, sad story) with a Shires 1G (2 piece bell) and it plays better than it ever did.

Couldn't agree more

When I made bells at Rath's we put a two piece Red Brass ( cu90zn10) bell on a 50B3 and the owner ( a very renowned pro) said it had never played so well.
Not saying that would always be the case, but from years of making trombones I would say the further you get from the lead pipe, the less difference it makes.

BellEnd