TromboneChat

So I play a Shires Bollinger Artist model, Brassark CV, and a yellow seamed NY50 leadpipe from Brassark as well and I have no warmth or depth in my sound. It according to my colleagues and lesson teacher sounds like it’s lacking warmth and broadness, I can get loud easily, but the volume there is loud (almost breaking up) and direct, almost like a laser. I play (at least to my knowledge) a gigantic setup, but it just doesn’t have a large sound, and I don’t think it’s a pedagogical problem since it doesn’t happen on my friends horns.

I was thinking of getting either a copper or seamed nickel leadpipe from Brassark or 2.5 from shires, do y’all think this would be the right path forward to adding that warmth. I have a colleague who thinks adding weight might also be beneficial, do y’all think a counterweight or screwbell/heavier be a good step forward?

I had this problem on the brassark CV. It was definitely easier to play than a 95D but seemed to miss most of the good characteristics of the 95D at the same time. A lighter sound.

To add some more things:

I doubt it's the bell section, and adding weight to it would just make it heavier IMO.

Try different leadpipes- I had an NY50 for a while, but eventually changed over to a stock Bach 50 leadpipe that did everything it did but better. I also find Shires pipes to generally be better in Shires than aftermarket stuff, FWIW. Always start with a 2, and if you're playing the NY50, also try the smaller stuff like the 1.5.

Shires slides are good, but I have owned a B62 that, for lack of better words, sounded like butt. Every other slide I tried on that bell section sounded 100% better. Try some other slides to see if the issue persists.

You're in a realm within the mouthpiece world where a little can make a huge difference. Grab a few very different pieces in the same size range and experiment.

That being said, maybe pop one of the shires pipes in instead of the NY50 pipe and try it on for size.

I'd investigate the mouthpiece first, leadpipe second.
Either one of those would make a much more significant difference than weight on the horn itself (usually)
Changing up both would make a huge difference, whether good or bad depends on the pieces.
See if you can beg / borrow / steal from your studiomates to try stuff out.

Jay Freidman has said modern horns want to sound like a foghorn when soft and a laser beam when loud, and it's the players job to reverse this. Surprisingly, a warm sound is the result of a lot of overtones in the soft and middle dynamics, and is not just the result of playing large or heavy equipment. As you don't have this problem on your friend's instrument, this suggests that your equipment doesn't suit you, at least where you are at right now.
What's your friend playing that works better for you? you didn't say. But I would suggest just using a Shires 2 pipe, back off the size of the mouthpiece some, (just because Vernon or Bollinger play something or other doesn't mean everybody should) and do whatever it takes to produce the best possible sound.

modelerdc wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:03 am Jay Freidman has said modern horns want to sound like a foghorn when soft and a laser beam when loud, and it's the players job to reverse this. Surprisingly, a warm sound is the result of a lot of overtones in the soft and middle dynamics, and is not just the result of playing large or heavy equipment. As you don't have this problem on your friend's instrument, this suggests that your equipment doesn't suit you, at least where you are at right now.
What's your friend playing that works better for you? you didn't say. But I would suggest just using a Shires 2 pipe, back off the size of the mouthpiece some, (just because Vernon or Bollinger play something or other doesn't mean everybody should) and do whatever it takes to produce the best possible sound.

Well said and so true!

I'm assuming that when you played other horns, you used the same mouthpiece, which means to me that you *can* make that mouthpiece work and that there might be something amiss with your horn. Have you tried putting your slide on someone elses' bell section? Which valve section do you have? I recall that artist model has Thayers, but I know at one point he was on Tru-bores iirc? In any case, if the valves, particularly thayers, have any mechanical issues then it might be causing you trouble since you don't have issues on others' horns. I recently saw someone had a USB thumb drive stuck in their Edwards thayer section. The results were less than spectacular until they had it removed!

If it is Tru-bores, I only know a handful of bass players on those and you might want to check out the discussion of them from a few months ago if you can dig it up.

It's not necessarily bigger or heavier that get you more depth and breadth of sound.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 am It's not necessarily bigger or heavier that get you more depth and breadth of sound.

Indeed,indeed......
and you can't BUY a sound

Chris

BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:31 pm I can get loud easily, but the volume there is loud (almost breaking up) and direct, almost like a laser.

In my "old school" and frugal opinion this sounds like a classic blown out tone, due to overblowing and not correcting with steady long tones.
Try to borrow a vanilla mouthpiece and leadpipe and see what effect a few days of long tones has on you sound, you may not have to spend your way out this situation..

It also sounds a lot like the mouthpiece is too big for the player, and/or a bad match to the horn, and/or bad playing mechanics. When you don't get any resistance from the equipment you have to create it in other ways and that creates exactly what is described, loss of control over the sound.

And "more practice" isn't the answer. Neither is going bigger or heavier- the answer is more likely the opposite.

BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:31 pm So I play a Shires Bollinger Artist model, Brassark CV, and a yellow seamed NY50 leadpipe from Brassark as well and I have no warmth or depth in my sound. It according to my colleagues and lesson teacher sounds like it’s lacking warmth and broadness, I can get loud easily, but the volume there is loud (almost breaking up) and direct, almost like a laser. I play (at least to my knowledge) a gigantic setup, but it just doesn’t have a large sound, and I don’t think it’s a pedagogical problem since it doesn’t happen on my friends horns.

I was thinking of getting either a copper or seamed nickel leadpipe from Brassark or 2.5 from shires, do y’all think this would be the right path forward to adding that warmth. I have a colleague who thinks adding weight might also be beneficial, do y’all think a counterweight or screwbell/heavier be a good step forward?

In my past experience: A Counterweight will actually focus the sound more and make it project forward, not widen the sound. I think the Bollinger sounds from the description on the SE Shires site to be more of a focused, and articulation minded set up, so if you aren’t getting what you want, maybe you and the horn are not really matching up well.

As stated in the other posts, bigger isn’t going to mean a large sound always.

I would say you might want to work on your air as well. I was trying to get a bigger more symphonic sound and my teacher focused on my air most. I needed to make a much larger amount of air move the sound at a much slower speed. Think about a tank needing to be drained in a short amount of time and you have a garden hose or a fire hose. You can use the garden hose if you speed up the process by adding pressure which forces the liquid out at an increased speed, but if you use the fire hose you can use a lot less pressure to drain the tank, so volume of air through the horn is the key, but at a slow speed/low pressure. We also focused in Sighing. As you sigh out, that is how it should feel to play loud and full. It is surprisingly relaxed way to play.

If you end up coming back the horn set up, then I would look at a few things: Mouthpiece might not mesh with the horn. I personally like Hammond Mouthpieces for the overtones they seem to create with the above mentioned way of playing. Leadpipe you might want to try a Shires B2 just to have a middle of the road place to start. Hand slide, I am not sure but the website says there is some sort of weighted mouthpipe collar, so maybe try a standard yellow brass with nickel end crook slide B62, or B62-78 if you prefer dual bore. Valves shouldn’t be too big an issue as Axials seem to be popular with Symphony players. Tuning slide, also seems from the site to be a special taper, so try a C crook for a more open/wide sound. Bell, I would say I prefer the color of Gold Brass and Red Brass bells, so maybe get away from the Yellow Brass bell. Finally, Shires has tapers that are either Bach like or Conn like. I personally like Bachs more, so I always get that taper in tenor and bass bells. BII in bass land, but you may gel more with a BI Conn style bell (the store I bought my horns at also didn’t carry BI bells because they were harder to sell apparently).

Hope you are able to find a way to get your concept out into the hall! That is the journey we all are on. Good luck.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:44 am It also sounds a lot like the mouthpiece is too big for the player, and/or a bad match to the horn, and/or bad playing mechanics. When you don't get any resistance from the equipment you have to create it in other ways and that creates exactly what is described, loss of control over the sound.

This…

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:12 am It's not necessarily bigger or heavier that get you more depth and breadth of sound.

…this…

blast wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:08 am Indeed,indeed......
and you can't BUY a sound

Chris

…and this.

A bit of a fallacy set out above. By experimenting with various components it might be possible to find an optimal combination. That is the rationale behind modular horns. Maybe you can buy a sound. Up to a point. It looks like the OP may have pushed the extremes of big, dark and heavy before he was ready.

But I have to say that consistent practice during the pandemic has made all my gear sound better.

Good call from Matt above: Check your equipment thoroughly. There could be something wrong or something stuck somewhere. Happened to me and I had some months of serious self doubt and anxiety before discovering an item stuck in my tuning slide.
Probably unlikely but not impossible, worth checking.

Chatname wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:36 am There could be something wrong or something stuck somewhere. Happened to me and I had some months of serious self doubt and anxiety before discovering an item stuck in my tuning slide.
Probably unlikely but not impossible, worth checking.

Yet another good reason to run an HW Brass-Saver brush through your bell section - as well as your (inner and outer) slides - as the first step in your regular (ideally daily) trombone hygiene protocol. If there's something stuck in your tuning slide (or your outer slide crook), you'll know immediately!
These brushes are gentle, harmless, and effective. Great investment!

http://hwproducts.com/brasswinds/hw-bra ... -trombone/

Chatname wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:36 am Happened to me and I had some months of serious self doubt and anxiety before discovering an item stuck in my tuning slide.

I have to ask… what was stuck in your tuning slide and how did it get there?

You should always check for something in the horn, but that would most likely make the horn sound very diffuse and difficult to play. I had a trumpet player that had a horrible sound that was just fuzzy. I suggested to clean the horn. The next week he showed me the valve casing brush that was apparently stuck in the bell. It was rusty, and his older brother admitted to me that he lost it over 5 years before that… needless to say the student gained a fifth in range and could blow the rest of the section out of the water after that!

Worst thing I ever had to clean out of an instrument was a set of beanie babies that a young sibling was throwing into their older siblings tuba for months. 10 total came out of the tuba.

Most common things in trombones: AA or AAA batteries (in tuning slides, and hand slides), Metronome and tuner battery covers, tuning slide grease (chapstick style), Sheet music, pencils, pens, sharpies, keychains/name tags, and a few mouthpieces…worked at a music store and did their repairs…

mbtrombone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:47 pm Worst thing I ever had to clean out of an instrument was a set of beanie babies that a young sibling was throwing into their older siblings tuba for months. 10 total came out of the tuba.

Most common things in trombones: AA or AAA batteries (in tuning slides, and hand slides), Metronome and tuner battery covers, tuning slide grease (chapstick style), Sheet music, pencils, pens, sharpies, keychains/name tags, and a few mouthpieces…worked at a music store and did their repairs…