Not sure where to go - bull moose bass

[hyperbolica]

Not sure if this is a question, a statement or a cry for help. I've got a Kanstul TIS bass, and I've often felt like I was fighting it rather than playing it. Then I picked up a cheap Chinese oversize tenor and put a big mouthpiece in it. If I play them side by side the K plays like a moose and the Chinese TSO actually sounds and feels like a trombone with a clearer sound, better high range and approximately the same low range.

What to do? The K was expensive and should be a fine instrument. It sounds very diffuse. There's nothing "wrong" with it, it has been to the shop to get cleaned and aligned. It is a horse to play. I wanna love it, but just don't. I had to play up high (C octave above middle C) with it yesterday and it worked OK, but felt like the sound was physically coming from my head instead of the bell.

The Chinese thing only has one valve, but feels and I think sounds better to play. More like a real trombone.

The thing is, I've been on "the quest" for mouthpieces and tenors, and don't relish the idea of repeating that process (and expense) with basses. I just want a horn that feels good to play. I'm hardly a pro, and bass isn't my main axe. A Holton 180 might be safe, a Bach 50 maybe, Conn 62hi? Not sure where to go from here.

[blast]

Many Kanstuls fell short on blow and sound. I met Zig in Frankfurt and he said to me that the only decent bass he made was the single valve Roberts model. The one he had there was a stunner and sorta proved the point. If it were me, I'd sell the kanstul and buy a new Conn 62Hi. They seem to be very good and comparatively cheap.
Chris

[hyperbolica]

Many Kanstuls fell short on blow and sound. I met Zig in Frankfurt and he said to me that the only decent bass he made was the single valve Roberts model. The one he had there was a stunner and sorta proved the point. If it were me, I'd sell the kanstul and buy a new Conn 62Hi. They seem to be very good and comparatively cheap.
Chris

No hand wringing or equivocating. I like that. Nice direct answer. Now I've got to go play one. Thanks for solid advice!
Matt

[Bach5G]

I have not seen (or noticed at least) as much love for the Conn 62Hs (modern) as I have recently. I wonder if their reputation suffered by comparison with the Elkhart 62Hs which then became conventional wisdom?

Getzen 1052? People seem to enjoy their old Conns, Kings and Benges.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The tuning-in-slide basses are notorious for lacking focus and articulation clarity. This is due to the absence of the cylindrical tubings in the bell section that are normally found in the small and large side of the main tuning slide. Those short pieces of cylindrical tubing do wonders in helping with focus and clarity. With these design differences, it would be a good idea to approach a TIS bass trombone with an open mind. In other words, the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that works on your standard bass trombone will probably NOT work on your TIS bass trombone.

I think one of the easiest ways to experiment and fix the TIS problem is to get a mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that helps you find that focus and clarity. Noah Gladstone's brassark.com has a .562 bore leadpipe (the BH62) that is specifically designed to help with clarity on TIS bass trombones. I'm sure there are a few TIS bass trombone players on TromboneChat who can offer mouthpiece/leadpipe advice as well.

[hyperbolica]

The tuning-in-slide basses are notorious for lacking focus and articulation clarity. This is due to the absence of the cylindrical tubings in the bell section that are normally found in the small and large side of the main tuning slide. Those short pieces of cylindrical tubing do wonders in helping with focus and clarity. With these design differences, it would be a good idea to approach a TIS bass trombone with an open mind. In other words, the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that works on your standard bass trombone will probably NOT work on your TIS bass trombone.

I think one of the easiest ways to experiment and fix the TIS problem is to get a mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that helps you find that focus and clarity. Noah Gladstone's brassark.com has a .562 bore leadpipe (the BH62) that is specifically designed to help with clarity on TIS bass trombones. I'm sure there are a few TIS bass trombone players on TromboneChat who can offer mouthpiece/leadpipe advice as well.

I played a modified olds S-20 with a duo gravis valve set on it that was also TIS, and that thing rocked. It was inferior in most ways to the Kanstul, but it totally blew it away sound-wise. It had a little bit of the velvety quality of the Kanstul, but it could really rock when you leaned on it.

The Kanstul came with 3 pipes, and I picked the one I liked best with the Kanstul. There was a GR2, 62 and a C, and I kept the C in it. I've gone back and forth with the mouthpiece, and recently landed on a DE LB K8. I had also used a Ferguson L and a Bach 1 1/4G. Nothing really big. The Ferguson V gives it more focus, but at the expense of low range.

Looking back, I had the Kanstul and a P-24g at the same time and had some section mates in a big band offer opinions. They picked the Kanstul over the P-24g, I think because the K had a little more of that sound fog thing going on that you sometimes want in the bass voice. Sometimes that diffuse-ness is a good thing, and sometimes you want focus. I'm more of an 8h/88h kind of player, so sound fog is a little foreign to me. The 62hi is probably a great pick in general, and maybe also for me in specific.

[Burgerbob]

There are definitely great 1662s out there, but not all of them. You may just have one of those in the latter category.

CR valves have a very high ceiling of performance- they can be some of the best ever made, but if they are set up wrong (which was not uncommon from the factory), they are going to ruin the experience as well.

[hyperbolica]

There are definitely great 1662s out there, but not all of them. You may just have one of those in the latter category.

CR valves have a very high ceiling of performance- they can be some of the best ever made, but if they are set up wrong (which was not uncommon from the factory), they are going to ruin the experience as well.

Yeah, I've had problems with the valves too, just mechanically speaking. I don't think they like the Hetmans I was using. They'd get build-up and start to bind within a couple days of being cleaned. This thing has just been one problem after another for a long time now. I don't play enough bass to make solving the issues a priority. I'm just getting tired of it, and finally remembered it doesn't have to be this much work.

[blast]

The tuning-in-slide basses are notorious for lacking focus and articulation clarity. This is due to the absence of the cylindrical tubings in the bell section that are normally found in the small and large side of the main tuning slide. Those short pieces of cylindrical tubing do wonders in helping with focus and clarity. With these design differences, it would be a good idea to approach a TIS bass trombone with an open mind. In other words, the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that works on your standard bass trombone will probably NOT work on your TIS bass trombone.

I think one of the easiest ways to experiment and fix the TIS problem is to get a mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that helps you find that focus and clarity. Noah Gladstone's brassark.com has a .562 bore leadpipe (the BH62) that is specifically designed to help with clarity on TIS bass trombones. I'm sure there are a few TIS bass trombone players on TromboneChat who can offer mouthpiece/leadpipe advice as well.

Nothing wrong with the focus on my TIS Conns Brian.
Chris

[Burgerbob]

Nothing wrong with the focus on my TIS Conns Brian.
Chris

You have to admit you have a bit more experience with them than most, and Conns are probably some of the more focused TIS horns out there. I know the TIS Greenhoes and Kanstuls are a completely different blow than what I'm used to as a bell-tuning guy.

[blast]

Nothing wrong with the focus on my TIS Conns Brian.
Chris

You have to admit you have a bit more experience with them than most, and Conns are probably some of the more focused TIS horns out there. I know the TIS Greenhoes and Kanstuls are a completely different blow than what I'm used to as a bell-tuning guy.

I think the difference between bell and slide tuning is not so great. I had bell tuning Raths that I converted to slide tuning when Mick started to make the parts and they were not that different...I even converted one back to bell tuning just to lose the slide weight. I've also rebuilt a 70H as bell tuning, but with a Williams style tuning slide and it was not a huge difference. I think the slot thing can be caused by many variables and yes, some players prefer a wider slot on bass. I've never played a Kanstul or Greenhow bass that I've liked with the exception of Mike Suter's Kanstul Holton homage and I thought that felt like a 70H.
Mouthpiece and leadpipe have a huge effect on slot...at least for me.
Chris

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The tuning-in-slide basses are notorious for lacking focus and articulation clarity. This is due to the absence of the cylindrical tubings in the bell section that are normally found in the small and large side of the main tuning slide. Those short pieces of cylindrical tubing do wonders in helping with focus and clarity. With these design differences, it would be a good idea to approach a TIS bass trombone with an open mind. In other words, the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that works on your standard bass trombone will probably NOT work on your TIS bass trombone.

I think one of the easiest ways to experiment and fix the TIS problem is to get a mouthpiece/leadpipe combination that helps you find that focus and clarity. Noah Gladstone's brassark.com has a .562 bore leadpipe (the BH62) that is specifically designed to help with clarity on TIS bass trombones. I'm sure there are a few TIS bass trombone players on TromboneChat who can offer mouthpiece/leadpipe advice as well.

Nothing wrong with the focus on my TIS Conns Brian.
Chris

There is a big difference in many other factors between the old TIS Conns and some of the bigger J bend and bell combinations that have been offered over the years. The Elkhart Conn TIS basses are smaller through the entire bell section. For me, the old TIS Conn basses work pretty well. For full disclosure, the Elkhart Conn bass trombones with tuning in the bell always feel too small for me. Thus, it makes sense that the TIS of similar dimensions work for me.

Just like the original poster, I have not found a .547 or .562 TIS horn made in the last couple of decades that has really caught my attention. My THEORY is that the constant taper in a bell section of modern, slightly larger dimensions, while it is a cool design, can take away the sizzle and mojo from some horns.

[hornbuilder]

Brian,
Your theory is flawed.
TIS horns are no larger than TIB instruments. Infact a standard Edwards is LARGER through the tuning slide than "any" TIS horn that has been produced.

The only TIS design that is smaller than modern instruments is the small bell 70H, which uses the same bell as the 71/72/73 basses.

The Fuchs 70H and 60/62 series Conns are very similar in bore profile through the "tuning slide" area to a Bach 50.

A blanket statement that TIS horns lack focus or articulation clarity is just ludicrous. And by your reckoning, a TIB instrument that has tapered inner tuning slide tubes should not slot well, which is also false.

[hornbuilder]

Having said that...

Conn leadpipes are relatively short, and open, compared to a standard Bach pipe of the same "size". Using a big mouthpiece, with big throat and backbore, (such that many people play, and expected to work in any horn they play) will give less than desirable results. How many times have you heard "Conn's don't like big mourhpieces"?

If you "must" use a big mouthpiece in a TIS horn, a pipe more along the lines of a Bach will give better results, as it would provide some balance to the mouthpiece.

[hyperbolica]

If you "must" use a big mouthpiece in a TIS horn, a pipe more along the lines of a Bach will give better results, as it would provide some balance to the mouthpiece.

The C pipe I picked with my Kanstul was for "commercial", so it was the brightest - er - least dark pipe I could pick. And I don't use huge mouthpieces on bass, all about 1 1/4G.

[mbtrombone]

To the OP:

I would say there is probably an air use issue first. You stated bass isn’t your primary. I made the switch to bass in my early masters degree and played two years with a sound of a tenor trying to play a bass. I then started my next degree with a bass player and he quickly deduced my air was the primary issue followed by my inner sound concept. Make sure you are using a lot of air, but that the air is moving very slowly half the speed or less for me at the time. At first low notes will be soft, don’t worry about getting a loud sound, but a bass trombone sound instead. Warning it took me three years to get to where I am happy with my sound and I can reproduce it all the time. Find a note you like the sound of and stretch that sound into higher and lower notes. I knew things were starting to work when notes would speak instantly and we had to really back off on my articulation. The embouchure had to get readjusted to the extreme difference in air Speed I was using.

The horn still may not fit your goals. If you are fighting the horn that much maybe find something else and the sell off the Kanstul. No shame in deciding a horn isn’t a good fit. Got rid of my Conn 112, and changed some parts on my Shires to get to where I was happy. Changing some things now again after 8 years of no changes.

[hornbuilder]

So here are some questions.

I don't know who you are, or what sort of standard of player you are. (The joys of a social.media platform where people can use pseudonyms)

Are you a bass trombonist? Or just a "dabbler"? Have you played any other basses? From your initial post,, I would suspect the answer is "not many". Have you had different results from different horns?

Bass trombone requires a different use of your air and chops to tenor trombone. It may just be that you need to put in the time and find out how to play a bass, so as not to sound like a Bull Moose.

To put it bluntly.

[hyperbolica]

So here are some questions.

I don't know who you are, or what sort of standard of player you are. (The joys of a social.media platform where people can use pseudonyms)

Are you a bass trombonist? Or just a "dabbler"? Have you played any other basses? Have you had different results from different horns?

Bass trombone requires a different use of your air and chops to tenor trombone. It may just be that you need to put in the time and find out how to play a bass, so as not to sound like a Bull Moose.

To put it bluntly.

Yeah, I get it. I'm not a full time bass trombonist. I play tenor mostly, and then euph, and bass when I need to. I took private lessons in high school, and my teacher was a bass trombonist, so I picked up some of that vibe from him. I went to New England Conservatory and studied with John Swallow on an 88h. I played in a Navy fleet band for 4 years, doing a little of everything, but preferring chamber groups. I used a 42b most of that time, but they did give me a bass and did a couple of stage band concert tours on bass. I spent some years as semi-pro freelance in Rochester, NY, played in the community orchestra conducted by Doc Marcellus, and then took 10 years off. So the last 8 years or so have been in come-back mode, and I've split that time between tenor, bass, and valve instruments, mostly playing in a local orchestra on tenor, local big band on both tenor and bass, local trombone choir on tenor and bass, and a trombone quartet mostly on bass.

I play bass because we don't have many bass players in this area and of the group of people around me, I'm the most likely to be able to adapt. Plus we have and endless supply of people who show up with straight horns (inside joke from the diva thread). I don't really like bass, but I like how other people play it even less, and most of the music the quartet plays really required someone who doesn't sound like crap on bass. Prior to me deciding to play bass, we just took turns sounding like crap on the 4th part using our tenors, but I became dissatisfied with that and wanted to do something better. So I'm trying, probably not 100% successful.

I went through several bass bones before I got the Kanstul: Bach 50b2, Yamaha 613h?, Conn 70h (with Eb extension), 72h, Duo Gravis, Olds P24g, S-20 custom... I think that's it. Each one for a few months. The Kanstul wasn't my favorite, it was just the most expensive one. I think my favorite would be between the Bach and the P24g. But I've always been fascinated with 62h, and wish I had one. I think Chris' recommendation is probably the one I should act on.

Air has always been a problem due to age and weight and an accident I had a while back. But I think I've improved over the last several years. Losing weight has been the biggest help after practicing. I get to play on average 45 minutes per day.

In short, I don't think this is something practice or a new mouthpiece are going to fix. I have to get a horn that makes me feel like picking it up.

Here's a link to another bad recording, and we can play the "pin the tail on the trombone" game again. This shouldn't be hard. We have an 88h, a Wessex Super Tenor, and a Kanstul 1662i. All with the same mouthpiece (DE LB112mw K8), in one take without warming up. Put them in order.

https://www.dezignstuff.com/recordings/untitled.mp3

[Burgerbob]

Sounds like the real bass is on the end, judging by the sound and the real C. Sounds fine to me!

[Finetales]

I'm guessing Wessex, 88H, Kanstul.

I always loved how the 1662i looked, and really wanted one back in the day. Haven't read too many success stories with them though. Fortunately, they are fairly rare and worth a lot to begin with, so you should be able to get something nice for your troubles.

[Bach5G]

There’s been one on the wall of the local L& M for over year at least. I’ve tried it a couple of times. Not for me. A bit awkward and nothing in the sound or playability to commend it. YMMV.

[hornbuilder]

Okay, now we have a better idea as to the situation. Now, honestly, I would be much more tempted to blame the horn! Has it been checked over by a tech? I would suspect a leak somewhere, or an anomalie somewhere. Or, it could just be a dud horn. The fact that it is TIS is NOT enough to immediately disqualify it as a suitable horn for you!