TromboneChat

So, I can vaguely recall being 10 years old and using the bottle of slide oil that came with my Conn Director. I would put a drop or three on each slide inner and call it good for the day... Later, I learned about super-slick, then even later slide-o-mix...

Anyway, I was watching a 1971 video of some jazz masters, and at two places during this tune, Kai Winding reaches for his bottle of slide oil. It looks like he a half bottle of the stuff each time! I mean, he holds it away from the slide and water pistols it in the general direction of the slide inners I just thought it was an interesting look into a different era... Also, Kai could give Austin Powers a run for his money in that mojo suit!

Check out around 3:45 and 13:30

Back then it was most common to use Pond's cold cream on the inner and squirt it with water.

Pond’s blue label, not the green. Or was it the other way around?

I wonder if that's water, though. I've never heard of slide oil that sprayed out of the bottle like that. I think Superslick was around in 1971, and as stated, players used cold cream before that.

One time I found a very old sprayer and Jim Pugh and I figured it was before we used Pond's. Apparently you would put slide oil on the slide and spray water on it. Couldn't have worked that well. When I was a kid we had already switched to Pond's. Slide oil was the stuff you dribbled on the slide which smelled awful and lasted a good 10 minutes before you needed to add more.

As early or late as 1965 Herb Rankin of the first chair trombone in the KC Symphony taught me to use Pond’s cold cream with atomized water. The actual product came with a green lid. The blue lid is for dry skin. Trombone players accused Pond’s of changing their formula for quite a while.

Super slick was originally a cream product similarly used. It largely brought an end to the use of cold cream.

There was a similar trombone specific product called Trombotine. It smelled bad and was recommended for bad slides. Some players used Pledge or WD-40, and water. Some players diluted Slide-O-Mix with water and applied it with an atomizer.

although wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:14 pmAnyway, I was watching a 1971 video of some jazz masters, and at two places during this tune, Kai Winding reaches for his bottle of slide oil. It looks like he a half bottle of the stuff each time! I mean, he holds it away from the slide and water pistols it in the general direction of the slide inners I just thought it was an interesting look into a different era... Also, Kai could give Austin Powers a run for his money in that mojo suit!

I have also heard that Kai Winding thought that slide cheese was beneficial, and one time even had a horn clog up because he never cleaned it out.

Great player but I would definitely not emulate his maintenance or oiling routines.

OneTon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:35 pm
Super slick was originally a cream product similarly used. It largely brought an end to the use of cold cream.

There was a similar trombone specific product called Trombotine. It smelled bad and was recommended for bad slides. Some players used Pledge or WD-40, and water. Some players diluted Slide-O-Mix with water and applied it with an atomizer.

A lot of people still use Trombotine, including me. It doesn’t smell bad. It works very well to clean slides, and for older slides with loose tolerance. UltraPure and Yamaha slide lube (“YamaSnot”) work very well, too.

I never understood why people would use Pledge or WD-40. They’re not made for working lungs.

Kbiggs wrote: “A lot of people still use Trombotine, including me. It doesn’t smell bad. It works very well to clean slides, and for older slides with loose tolerance. UltraPure and Yamaha slide lube (“YamaSnot”) work very well, too.”

“I never understood why people would use Pledge or WD-40. They’re not made for working lungs.”

Trombotine is a good product and remains on the market. Cold cream was then probably the most commonly used lubricant . It was really cheap. In spite of constant cleaning and re-application, a near lifetime supply could be obtained for a couple of bucks. Someone may still be using cold cream.

Before plastic containers, the bottle of cold cream got lost or broken before it was ever used up. The music industry made its money on water bottles. Winding appears to be using a common water bottle. Bill Watrous mentions Pledge in passing on a YouTube video on slide preparation. Does anyone know if he ever quit using cold cream?

It is a really good video. I heard “Jeepers Creepers Where’d You Get Those Peepers” get quoted.

I suppose it's possible that I'm the only one here that was playing trombone in 1971 although it had only been a couple of years. Anyhow, I was able to buy kits of Superslick slide cream, a bottle of Formula 3, and a water bottle at our local music store.
I've tried some of the newer lubes, but always come back to Trombotine or Superslick cream.
And it does NOT smell bad!

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:50 am I suppose it's possible that I'm the only one here that was playing trombone in 1971 although it had only been a couple of years. Anyhow, I was able to buy kits of Superslick slide cream, a bottle of Formula 3, and a water bottle at our local music store.
I've tried some of the newer lubes, but always come back to Trombotine or Superslick cream.
And it does NOT smell bad!

I've got you beat by 15 years. I started using slide oil, but went to cold cream and water within a year or two. I had a small jar of Pond's that lasted a long time (into a layoff). When I started back up Pond's was different. Switched to (respectively) Formula 3, Superslick, Trombotine, and then an old jar of Pond's lookalike. I still use Trombotine on some slides, though. Never really liked the silicones (Slide-O-Mix, Rapid Comfort, etc.).

I precede Bruce (chronologically). I was started on Pond's Cold Cream in the 1950s - still have half a jar left, because I took a break from the trombone for several decades. I was delighted to discover newer, better slide lubes upon my return, though the old Pond's still works. Trombotine is good (doesn't smell), but Slide-O-Mix, Yamaha Slide Lube, & the new Ultra-Pure Lube are even better on all my aged but still near-perfect slides. Clean the slides regularly and thoroughly, use just a very small amount of lube and an hourly spray of distilled water, and I can go all day!

Lemon Pledge in the spray bottle was GREAT on slides. I used it until they dropped the liquid formula and replaced it with aerosol. Never had any issues after using it for over 20 years, plus it was self cutting, so it would never build up.

Really fast passages left a lemony scent in the air too

I have a tube of Trombotine.

I can barely detect the smell. It's like a wax candle. I suppose it is something similar in substance?

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:16 am I have a tube of Trombotine.

I can barely detect the smell. It's like a wax candle. I suppose it is something similar in substance?

Actually it's much like Pond's cold cream but without the perfume.

I use Trombotine and water with Hetman's Hydroslide. When I first started playing I think I used whatever King provided as a cream.

Following the advice of a Yamaha tech I spoke with a little over a year ago, I stopped spraying my slide with distilled water and began using just the Yamaha slide lube alone. After awhile, I began to notice that about the only time I re-lubed was after a slide wipe down (which also was reduced in frequency and necessity).

No comparative before or after tests done, subjective/seat of the pants observations only. There may have been a transition period (building a base coat?), I don't recall. All I am sure of, in my current experience, is my slides are as good as slides can get and I am using less lube and no water to keep them that way (and that "frosty build up" that eventually shows up on the stockings and prompts a wipe down has been lessened in frequency and noticeability (doesn't get hard or noisy). I no longer can see any reason to add extra water to the horn. And I don't.

(to be clear, I currently follow this practice because of what I perceive as improved and more consistent slide performance and (objectively) less water added inside the horn, not in order to save a couple bucks in slide lube.)

Bill Watrous slide maintenance using Ponds.

PaulT wrote, “I . . . began using just the Yamaha slide lube alone.”

I began using this product on my YSL-697Z trombone on the advice of a Yamaha Artist. I evidently was an early adopter in the USA. To procure it,I had to fax a picture of my American Express card to Long and McQuade in Canada, perhaps Winnipeg. It may have been risky, but I was desperate. They were delightfully patient with me. It was the only product that ever successfully worked for me on this horn. In full disclosure, I must admit that I never tried Trombotine.

It took years of begging to get the local brick and mortar music stores to stock it in spite of knowing owners and sales persons by their first names. The original product was identified as “Slide Oil” and YAC 1021P. Yamaha must have realized that calling it “Oil” was the kiss of death and evidently now calls it “Lubricant.”

Breaking the misting habit may prove to be difficult. I will leave trying Trombotine on YSL-697Z and YSL-897Z trombones, and how it smells when applied to those slides, to the trombone chat community. To quote the owner of Wichita Band Instrument, “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.”

Super Slick is the stuff I feel, if it were much stronger, would have a troublesome odor.

But it is also barely detectable (to me).

robcat wrote, “Super Slick . . . would have troublesome odor.”

It could be. I used Super Slick a long time ago.

I'm in a similar (age) era as Bruce. I've had a similar journey to most of those my age and used all the products but instead of Ponds there was a similar creme over here in the UK called 'Oatine' cream. it was hidously expensive and only available from posh chemists but apparently made you much more beutiful than other products! It was brilliant stuff but alas went the way of uneconomical commerce (I now use yamaha, but did quite like the ultrapure (that didnt go off). That said I thought I would just raise the subject that is a bit 'dim' in the recesses of my mind but I do remember being given (and I used it until it was empty) a bottle of slide oil that once you put it on you sprayed water on it and it turned into a cream. It meant after putting the oil on you manipulated the slide a few times to spread it so that when you sprayed the water on you had a uniform coating of cream that was very thin and worked quite well. I was probably only about 16 at the time so who knows whether my impression or my memory was right.

I notice you can still buy ordinary slide oil in my music shop so presumably there are still some players who use oil to this day?... Doug

There used to be a product called "Wilwerk" that looked to me like a suspension of some kind of cream in a liquid. I tried it, but never found it to work.

Pond's in the US was a common commercial product that didn't have a "boutique" price tag (like your Oatine). In fact, we used it in theater to remove stage makeup and when I was in my college Drama club I used it by the bucketful. I've tried boutique creams as a slide lube, but none of them worked as well as plain old cold cream (which was invented by Pond's in 1849).

As to slide oil, I still like to give it to kids. They tend to slather the slide in it and Slide Oil is the only lube that doesn't get worse when you use too much. Once a kid gets the idea that "less is more" then they can move on to one of the other preparations we know and love (or love to hate).

I predate 1971 but Bruce has me beat. He is quite right about beginners using slide oil in lieu of a more expensive or perhaps complicated product.

It occurred to me at breakfast while reading the MSDS that the only “active” ingredient in Pond’s is triethanolamine. This is three parts ethylene oxide and one part ammonia. It’s structure is such that it is amphoteric, reacting to acids as well as base components to stabilize ph, hydrophilic to bind to water, and hydrophobic to bind to oil. They two top components of Pond’s are water and mineral oil. They do not naturally mix.

It is not unreasonable to anticipate that Trombotine is made from something similar. Were the components of the triethanolamine itself or the Trombotine to be poorly mixed, or were they to separate due to exceeding the shelf life, it would not take much of a release of ammonia to stink to high heaven. Likewise, if the ph of a bulk product component were to throw the ph of the compound off, triethanolamine might be used to bring the ph to spec. This might also account for a bad smell.

I worked one summer during college mixing rubber for roller skate wheels and contract rubber. The smallest batches were greater than 100 kg or 200 pounds. Anomalies occur. Errant batches were more often fixed rather than thrown away. Based on this hypothesis, I think my experience was an outlier. Trombotine users can expect no such negative experience.

Triethanolamine is a liquid.

There are some compounds in Pond's that are more important to us as a basis for a lubricant. There is beeswax. There are several aliphatic compounds. While Pond's is generally sold as a makeup remover and skin emollient, we don't use those properties in lubricating slides. In fact, I'd bet the reason we found Pond's to go from a good lube to a so-so lube was that some synthetic substitutes (like synthetic beeswax) and probably changed the way they mixed the stuff up -- more shear means the components are better mixed, but we depended on there being "clumps" of fatty compounds to make a film on the slide to resist water.

Yes Bruce. “Triethanolamine is a liquid.” And you could be right regarding the use of synthetic substitutes and mixing changing the lubricant properties of Pond’s.

European countries limit triethanolamine content to 2.5% and the US limits triethanolamine content to 5%. (If a little bit is good, then a whole lot is better.) Used as an emulsifier, with a higher percentage content we might expect better mixing and less robust lubrication. At lower percentage contents of triethanolamine, we might expect larger clumps of fatty acids and better lubricant properties.

We would need access to a lab to get facts and data. In tribology, Mother Nature always wins.

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:01 am We would need access to a lab to get facts and data. In tribology, Mother Nature always wins.

If you are a tribologist, how about educating the trombone community to squelch the widely-believed legend that applying a water spray to the slide creates a "ball-bearing"-like layer of droplets for the slide to skate on? Makes no sense to me - but I'm not a lubrication expert.

Posaunus wrote, “If you are a tribologist, . . .”

I am not a tribologist. I am not familiar with this legend. I studied the problem out of frustration a long time ago and located a lab for testing. Before the tests started Alastair Kay turned me on to Yamaha Slide Oil, aka Yamaha Slide Lubricant. And there was no need to reinvent the wheel.

I would defer humbly to a tribologist or Bruce.

Bruce would also defer to a tribologist. I had to consult one for a lubrication problem in a former job.

Posaunus wrote, “Makes no send to me . . .”

If you will accept the fact that I am not a tribologist and any attempt to explain this is subject to change with better facts or interaction with a more knowledgeable person:

The slide skating on droplets of water acting as ball bearings analogy exists in the spectrum between unicorns and murky metaphors. A tribologist or physicist might have coined the image for the purpose of conveying an otherwise obscure point to his or her colleagues, or to create a quick visual image that was easily expressed in words. It may have been created elsewhere. People who think more literally may be asking where are the roller balls and what suspends the droplets of water. If the analogy does not resonate, wait for a better one to come along.

Tribologists like to class full film lubrication as hydrodynamic for sliding, and elastohydrodynamic for rolling. A third system exists for tapered roller bearings which are a combination of the two. Roller lubrication is intense. Loads are high, metal is deforming, velocities are high, and the lubricant is thinning. That makes the droplets and roller bearings analogy something of a murky metaphor. For a trombone slide, we hope the loads are low, that nothing is rolling, and that there is little or no measureable deformation. It might therefore make sense to classify the trombone slide lubrication as hydrodynamic, or sliding, as opposed to rolling.

I hope an alternate visualization does not confuse us even more. Engineers like to simplify models, drop low impact variables, and even eliminate some tests if possible. For such a test as this, visualization for this model might be a flat, fairly smooth bottomed tennis shoe on a square piece of linoleum. The tennis shoe and linoleum tile may appear smooth with the naked eye. With some magnification we will see peaks and valleys in each surface. When the tennis shoe and tile are dry, static friction is high and traction is good. The shoe may not slip at all. The addition of a film of water would separate the two surfaces, create a slip plane, and lower the static and dynamic coefficients of friction. Add a film that contains oil and water, and the coefficients of static and dynamic friction may go down even more.

We might compare this model to trying to walk in front of the counter, behind the counter, and behind the grill at our favorite fast food restaurant.

For the scale of slides in the half inch diameter range, this model will most likely produce satisfactory results, even though it does not resemble a trombone slide at all. The valleys and peaks and film of water are still there. We hope that the trombone slide will not know how much more curved it is compared to the flat linoleum.

Of course, the actual test apparatus would use surfaces matching the inner and outer slides in materials and roughness, but not necessarily curvature. If we came up with a lubricant that looked promising, we might try it on a slide. But Yamaha beat us to it and we don’t have to.

For what it is worth, static or standing friction is always higher than dynamic, the friction when the object is in motion. We trombonists are greedy and want both to be as low as possible. If for some reason this model was not reacting similarly enough to a trombone slide, another model would be enlisted.

I've always thought of trombone slide lubrication as sort of a boundary layer phenomenon, where a thin film of lubricant (cream, oil, water, ...) submerges the peaks and valleys of the metal slides, and provides a slippery surface at the inner/outer slide interface. Not really a "friction" problem any more, static or dynamic. Sliding resistance only depends on lubricant viscosity and fluid layer thickness. The appearance (if any) of water droplets is an enticing distraction, so folks like to think of them as little ball bearings. But it's the lubricant film that's doing the job. And it's amazing to me how little lubricant is required. A bottle of Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort or Yamaha lube will last me a year, even with regular playing and almost daily slide cleaning.

Posaunus wrote, “I always thought of trombone slide lubrication as . . . boundary layer problem . . .”

Boundary layer theory is associated with fluid flow around bodies. The goal may be to reduce drag. Tribology is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication for bodies in relative motion. The root for “tri” is from the Greek “rub.” The force being measured by a test apparatus may be a form of drag in either case, which can be confusing.

You may be using an excessive amount of lubricant. A 30 ml bottle of Yamaha Slide Lubricant can last me for years. I still have a bottle that says Yamaha Slide oil on it.

(Just kidding.)

Harrison... I can see you and I would get on if we met!

I'm more of a trombonist than a tribologist.

Tbonesullivan wrote I have also heard that Kai Winding thought that slide cheese was beneficial, and one time even had a horn clog up because he never cleaned it out.

I'm obviously more of a Kai Winding guy then It hasnt helped me play like him though - so maybe he was wrong

Doug

Tbonesullivan wrote, “ . . . one time (Kai) had a horn clog up . . .”

The correct terminology would be “loss of circulation” in the oil field. When it comes to cheese, this site is abundant in ruminators.

Very good... Doug