TromboneChat

I’m thinking about buying a large bore straight tenor and was curious to know what other people thought of them. I mainly play jazz where I use my Yamaha 891z, and for classical I play on a Yamaha 882 open wrap. I recently tried a straight Bach 42, and it felt much more comfortable for me (which I think is because I spend most of my time playing jazz on a straight horn). I’d like to hear both sides of why I should get one, and why these horns are useless (I know that some people have very strong opinions about these horns)! Any help is appreciated.

First, a straight large bore trombone is NOT useless. Get that out of your head right now.

If you are playing classical and generally on the 1st chair, you won't have a lot of need for an F-attachment, but you will have a need to play a larger bore to match into the section. This is why a lot of orchestral principal players will have straight large bore horns.

Playing high on a large bore horn with a large mouthpiece can be tiring, so a large bore straight horn is not recommended for Jazz Band lead. I'd prefer using one on one of the lower parts (but not on bass, where you need the attachment).

I like straight horns. I've owned a great 8H, and I have a straight 36/42 gooseneck that will be part of my upcoming large tenor project.

In my line of freelancing work, it's very rare that you can bring a straight horn for a legit gig and know for sure that you won't need or want an F attachment. I honestly can't think of a single gig from the last few years that it would have been the best choice. Even my primary small horn is a 3B/F because it comes in clutch so often.

I think if you did the right work often enough, a straight large tenor (or Bach 36 or what have you) could be a good thing to have in the stable. But I don't know many of those people myself!

I've had a couple 8h's, still have and love one of them. Pair it with a 525 slide or a 547 or even a 562. Very nice horn. I use it for orchestra and chamber music, including trombone ensembles. I used to own a Holton tr156 which was primarily a very powerful orchestral horn. I play with a guy who has a Yamaha Xeno (I forget the model number) straight large bore, and he plays everything on it. Everything. Jazz, chamber, concert band, orchestra, church groups. If I had unlimited play money for horns, I'd have an Olds Opera w/o F and a Bach 42g.

Straight horns aren't for everybody. You'd think that with the modular options you'd see more people going valveless, but it doesn't happen as much as you'd think. My Elkhart 8h can sound deceptively light. I don't think the newer models can do this as well. I like just the light weight and simplicity of a straight horn. You rarely need that valve anyway, why carry the baggage?

From an accounting standpoint it is redundant. You can play any note the 42 will play on the 882. I have a LT42G with an oversize bell. I love the sound. There are many band, orchestra, and practice books of music that do not require an f attachment. So it isn’t useless. Maybe imprudent if I don’t know what is getting thrown at me.

I also think that some successful trombone players and cello players may have a secret love affair with the sound(s) their instruments make that has to do with their shared voicings. Don’t tell their spouses. And for many of those trombone players, a straight horn may enhance that experience.

A straight 42 is not likely to work for playing lead or even second in the big band I play in unless you spell your last name the same way Steve Turre does. And having written all this, I have admiration for players who have the discipline to have one 3BF in their closet and no other trombones.

My mentor told me that I needed a trombone smaller than 0.490 inches in bore to play what is in our book. I think he was right.

In a post a few weeks ago, (https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22764) I commented that people who show up with just a straight horn are kind of divas, because they're telling you right up front they aren't going to play any low parts. I was mostly joking, but I do kind of believe that. We have a quartet and two guys show up with straight horns... It's rather annoying that they can't take turns pulling their weight on the 4th book from time to time... But... there's only a few notes you really can't play on a straight horn - low Eb - B. Still, I'll bring a straight horn every time I think I can get away with it.

It's a cool story if you're in the Chicago Symphony and you show up with a straight large tenor for the gig.

It's also a cool story of you're Slide Hampton (I think?) And you play all your sets on a straight large tenor. Or if you are trying to go after that same sound.

Otherwise, it's sort of a frivolous instrument.

Thanks for all the responses! I definitely won’t be changing my jazz setup anytime soon, but this definitely helps me for where I am headed with my classical setup. I rarely have a need for the trigger and sometimes I even try to avoid it because natural positions generally sound better to me (yes, I know that practicing w/, w/o the trigger, and alternate positions will make them sound better , but with my current setup I still think that natural positions sound better)

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:20 pm It's a cool story if you're in the Chicago Symphony and you show up with a straight large tenor for the gig.

It's also a cool story of you're Slide Hampton (I think?) And you play all your sets on a straight large tenor. Or if you are trying to go after that same sound.

Otherwise, it's sort of a frivolous instrument.

Jealousy is an ugly thing, Harry.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:33 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:20 pm It's a cool story if you're in the Chicago Symphony and you show up with a straight large tenor for the gig.

It's also a cool story of you're Slide Hampton (I think?) And you play all your sets on a straight large tenor. Or if you are trying to go after that same sound.

Otherwise, it's sort of a frivolous instrument.

Jealousy is an ugly thing, Harry.

You know it! Jay has been killing it for like twice the time I've been alive.

My feeling is that a straight tenor is the preferable choice about 90% of the time... but that other 10% is super embarrassing. If I could justify owning multiple tenors (or had happened to come across a nice convertible tenor) I would play straight as much as possible.

40 years ago, many of the Principal Trombone players in the major orchestras worldwide were playing straight horns as their main instrument - I can't think of any right now. I played a lot of my career on a Conn 8H (made to accept a detachable F attachment). There are a lot of nice qualities to be found in a straight horn in terms of resonance and a free response, but there are so many times that a trigger is needed. A lot of contemporary music (both in Classical and in Pops arrangements) need a valve - often because many arrangers don't know that there is a Bass Trombonist right there who would be the more appropriate person to have that note in their part. That's another discussion, but the fact is, we need a valve frequently now. Also, modern valves tend to be free-blowing, and interfere with the blow of the horn less than they used to.

I would say that if you can only have one .547 instrument, make it an F attachment horn. Likewise, I would tell a Bass Trombonist to have a double valve before they think of buying a single valve horn. If there isn't a financial issue, straight tenors and single valve basses can be a nice change of pace, and can be good for saving you from arm and shoulder issues. You can only use them, however, if you know what music you're playing and know for sure that you won't need extended range.

Jim Scott

ok so nobody plays a straight large bore tenor...except for a whole lot of the most famous jazz trombone players of the last 60 years.
And a bunch of others play a trigger horn but often music that doesn't specifically require one.

You can learn how to play false notes down there and then there is no need for an f-attachment. I do not really understand why people like to the carry around the extra weight and are obsessed with the latest super-open-free flow valve when the most open flow you get with a straight tenor.

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:35 pm ok so nobody plays a straight large bore tenor...except for a whole lot of the most famous jazz trombone players of the last 60 years.
And a bunch of others play a trigger horn but often music that doesn't specifically require one.

I certainly didn't say that - I specified .547 horns in my post. I've also played a lot of gigs where a smaller bore straight horn would be the right horn for the style of music, but the "arranger' wrote a bunch of low E flats and D's in tenor parts.

The OP was asking about getting a .547 horn to add to their available instruments - I'm assuming that they are looking to use that horn for Orchestra/Brass Quintet/Wind Ensemble type playing. For that kind of playing, a valve is needed often enough to make it a necessity. Even the players that I was referring to who played straight tenors in the major orchestras 40 years ago had trigger horns too that they used as needed.

Jim Scott

I've functioned for the longest time using an 8H for legit work and have had no real issues. I had an 88H bell section pit together for the sake of being seen with a trigger horn in a section and on the off chance I'll need it for orchestral parts. A straight large bore will be fine.

In my opinion, if you have a budget for one and only one horn, it is better to get a horn with F attachment because it can do more. But if you have the money and willing to spend it, there is no reason against a large bore straight at all.

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:43 pm In my opinion, if you have a budget for one and only one horn, it is better to get a horn with F attachment because it can do more. But if you have the money and willing to spend it, there is no reason against a large bore straight at all.

I think this is the simplest answer.

As your only large bore horn? Absolutely not.

As a second large bore horn to your main F-attachment instrument? Absolutely!

If you're ok with potentially not using it a ton depending on what kind of parts get put on your stand, it can be a great thing to have. If you play principal trombone in an orchestra or concert band, plenty of programs won't need a valve. On some programs even the bass trombonist doesn't need a valve!

At the end of the day, a straight large bore is to tenor players what an old-school single-valve bass is to bass players. It is never necessary to have for anything, but a really nice one is a joy to have around for those occasional gigs where you know all the rep is perfect for it ahead of time.

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:59 am

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:43 pm In my opinion, if you have a budget for one and only one horn, it is better to get a horn with F attachment because it can do more. But if you have the money and willing to spend it, there is no reason against a large bore straight at all.

I think this is the simplest answer.

As your only large bore horn? Absolutely not.

As a second large bore horn to your main F-attachment instrument? Absolutely!

I whole-heartedly agree with this answer and would add that the same applies for the thoughts on a double trigger bass and a single trigger bass; some instruments are essential and some are luxuries. I have gradually built up the arsenal over the years(see the list below) and the most recent addition was the Yamaha YSL-641. I love it and as I rotate my practice sessions, it gets used as much as the 88H. The same applies to my 2 bass trombones. I am looking forward to trying the Yamaha in a concert performance now the world is seeming to be heading in the safe direction with the pandemic.

Cheers

Stewbones43

Nothing wrong with straight large bores.

With enough practice you can play in the bass range with 1, I regularly do that! There isn't much "needed" for an F attachment on tenor, tho it does sometimes make it much easier!

If I hadn't often rocked up to play tenor and then get asked at the gig to play bass, I probably would have stuck with my straight large bore.

bcschipper wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:42 pm You can learn how to play false notes down there and then there is no need for an f-attachment. I do not really understand why people like to the carry around the extra weight and are obsessed with the latest super-open-free flow valve when the most open flow you get with a straight tenor.

I don't know that I agree with that last statement. Flow =/= blow. Lots of horns feel more "open" and resonant with a valve. Also, many would point to why learn another horn response when every gig has at least one stupid piece that is a lot easier with a valve?

Same as with basses, I find one piece on the program is a lot easier with the double; similarly there is one piece that is easier/requires the trigger when I'm playing large tenor. I love my straight 42 and you will pry that gooseneck out of my cold, dead hands... but there is a reason the torch came out and that flare fits on my Thayer now.

Cheers,
Andy

*Related anecdote: It has been ~20 years since I have met somebody with a fully convertible or modular horn that comes to a gig with the straight section by default. I've seen some use them, but still pretty rare.

F Attachments were not even that common among second trombonists back in the day. Gil Cohen in the NY Phil almost always played a straight 8H. Even Norman Bolter would play a straight 42 at times.
Joe Alessi won the Phil job on a straight 42, so even in the mid-80’s, the f attachment wasn’t de rigueur yet.

Valve? Valve? We don’t need no stinkin’ valve.

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:59 am F Attachments were not even that common among second trombonists back in the day. Gil Cohen in the NY Phil almost always played a straight 8H. Even Norman Bolter would play a straight 42 at times.
Joe Alessi won the Phil job on a straight 42, so even in the mid-80’s, the f attachment wasn’t de rigueur yet.

Yup. Mainstream Orchestral rep is one of the places you can handle that best. When you are primarily playing music written over 100 years ago, that will happen. For the audiences that think the 1917 edition of Firebird is too recent.....

Playing more Pops or movie scores? The requirements will be a little different. Modern broadway shows with condensed orchestration putting bass and lead in the same book? "Juuuuust a bit outside."

Cheers,
Andy

I am mostly playing a 36 with a Schilke copy of the 88h bell. I also have a silver 42 bell.
It feels right. It is a custom convertible and also has a valve section.
I also play bass trombone which may explain why .547 bores feel to close to bass trombone and .525 bore has always felt like enough of a tenor.

MichaelMedrick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:26 pm I am mostly playing a 36 with a Schilke copy of the 88h bell. I also have a silver 42 bell.
It feels right. It is a custom convertible and also has a valve section.
I also play bass trombone which may explain why .547 bores feel to close to bass trombone and .525 bore has always felt like enough of a tenor.

As a bass bone player I struggled to play my large bore. Tried to play it like a bass. So I avoided tenor when I could!

In the last 18 months I've down sized to a .500 bore bach 12 & a .525 bore bach 36, and have never played better!

Pezza wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:24 am

MichaelMedrick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:26 pm I am mostly playing a 36 with a Schilke copy of the 88h bell. I also have a silver 42 bell.
It feels right. It is a custom convertible and also has a valve section.
I also play bass trombone which may explain why .547 bores feel to close to bass trombone and .525 bore has always felt like enough of a tenor.

As a bass bone player I struggled to play my large bore. Tried to play it like a bass. So I avoided tenor when I could!

In the last 18 months I've down sized to a .500 bore bach 12 & a .525 bore bach 36, and have never played better!

Related, just saw this interview of Curtis Olson by Dave Brubeck... He notes a similar issue between tenor and bass when asked about doubling for him.

http://www.davidbrubeck.com/2021/12/sev ... tis-olson/

Cheers,
Andy

Thank you for the great article!

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:07 am

Pezza wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:24 am

As a bass bone player I struggled to play my large bore. Tried to play it like a bass. So I avoided tenor when I could!

In the last 18 months I've down sized to a .500 bore bach 12 & a .525 bore bach 36, and have never played better!

Related, just saw this interview of Curtis Olson by Dave Brubeck... He notes a similar issue between tenor and bass when asked about doubling for him.

http://www.davidbrubeck.com/2021/12/sev ... tis-olson/

Cheers,
Andy

Good article. I had almost as much trouble switching between large bore tenor, or even 0.500 bore horns, and 0.485 horns as I did bass to large bore tenor. I kept at it until I could switch to 0.485 and bass, and back. Mastering the 0.485 alone was the most difficult. Each one is a different animal for me.

I love my straight horn, a Yamaha 630. One moving part. Any more than that & I start to feel a little woozy...
It's .524 bore, but I used to play one of those Holton Friedman-style horns. It was a blast!

stanzabone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm I love my straight horn, a Yamaha 630. One moving part. Any more than that & I start to feel a little woozy...
It's .524 bore, but I used to play one of those Holton Friedman-style horns. It was a blast!

Do I hear two moving parts?

stanzabone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm I love my straight horn, a Yamaha 630. One moving part. Any more than that & I start to feel a little woozy...
It's .524 bore, but I used to play one of those Holton Friedman-style horns. It was a blast!

Is your tuning slide corroded and stuck?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:52 pm

stanzabone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm I love my straight horn, a Yamaha 630. One moving part. Any more than that & I start to feel a little woozy...
It's .524 bore, but I used to play one of those Holton Friedman-style horns. It was a blast!

Is your tuning slide corroded and stuck?

Actually, the main slide, tuning slide, and water key make three moving parts. Does the mouthpiece count, too?

I never met a Yamaha that I did not like.

OneTon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:41 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:52 pm

Is your tuning slide corroded and stuck?

Actually, the main slide, tuning slide, and water key make three moving parts. Does the mouthpiece count, too?

I never met a Yamaha that I did not like.

I have! Most of the ones built after 2000, in fact. Their unsoldered bells play great, but the "fancy" soldered xenos aren't my cup of tea. Some of the ones with the old school wrap and unsoldered gold brass bells are fantastic though.

OneTon has it right, technically three moving parts! (honorable mention for the bell tenon screw) I rarely move the tuning slide since I play with a floating 1st position but the spit valve comes in handy!

Um, slide lock too on most, so five parts.

I just wanted to say that using a large bore .547 probably wouldn't work that great for big band lead. I'd want to be able to get some sparkle/sizzle without pushing the actual volume that hard, and a large bore would pretty much contradict that idea. It also would be hard to blend with others unless they are all also playing large bores too. This is coming from the guy who pretty much always plays my .547 on 3rd in big band scenarios.

I’m deep in camp frivolous on this one. I just don’t see why you wouldn’t want a valve or what disadvantage anyone would find besides a little bit of weight.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:22 pm I’m deep in camp frivolous on this one. I just don’t see why you wouldn’t want a valve or what disadvantage anyone would find besides a little bit of weight.

If you had a great horn, you'd play it, right? Not all great horns have valves. And most valve horns are large bore. There are lots of reasons to play straight horns. Lots of minimalists out there.

There are some times a small or medium bore with F can be a godsend. For a small ensemble playing in an amateur show, the trombone part may have a lot of trigger notes because it's a merging of tenor and bass parts. For 3rd in Big Band. For Stravinsky's "L'Histoire du Soldat" (it's for an octet with one trombone). I like a medium bore with F for Quintet 4th part.

Large bore straight can have uses as well. As many have said, it shouldn't be your sole horn if you want to play symphony, though.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:59 pm

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:22 pm I’m deep in camp frivolous on this one. I just don’t see why you wouldn’t want a valve or what disadvantage anyone would find besides a little bit of weight.

If you had a great horn, you'd play it, right? Not all great horns have valves. And most valve horns are large bore. There are lots of reasons to play straight horns. Lots of minimalists out there.

I had a really great non modular straight Rath R3. I loved just about everything about it, but the valve is important enough to me that I had to move on to something else.

Best tenor I have ever played: T383A. Straight Edwards T396A. Second best? Elkhart 8H.
I have never played a horn with a valve that matches a good straight horn. I just am short and I need a valve :/

Works great for a lot of solo rep as well. The straight Selmer Largo I used to have was a spectacular solo horn, but that was about it. Intonation was a bear and it didn't blend with anything! Alone, though...the most velvety sound ever. And just effortless, in a way that the Largo with F I had at the same time couldn't dream of (though it was no slouch).

^ the sound on those old Selmers!!! But yeah the pitch was squirrelly.

I’ve had an 8h and an 88h to choose from for the last 5 years it so. For orchestral and brass ensemble purposes, mainly 1st trombone, I’ve never yet felt the need to use a valve and have almost exclusively used the 8h. There is a caveat, in those groups I almost always know what I’m playing in advance so could decide to bring the 88h if absolutely necessary.

If I were asked to dep. in another group and did not know what I’d be playing, I’d default to the 88h.

Both horns get some usage but it’s probably about 90/10 in favour of the 8h. If I could only have one of them it’d have to be the 88h but I consider the enjoyment I get out of the 8h more than justifies the additional cost of having both.

For context I don’t make my living from playing, if I did and it was a question of the horn having to pay its way and being able to turn up for any gig with a single horn, I’d probably go with a modular valve horn with a straight gooseneck in the bag.

The only time I've preferred a valve over straight is my 79h. I've owned at least 3 78hs (keep trying to love them) and I just didn't like them nearly as much as my 79h. The 78 may be why Conn never made a 508 bore - it definitely plays smaller than you think it should.

I'd take the 79 anywhere. I do have a 525 slide for my 8h, and I use that when I can. I do wish the 78 played more like a 79.

I had a gig a week ago with a brass quartet where we were asked to do a duo with piano. We were then sent a chart for a duo trumpet and trombone with piano accompaniment were the trombone part did not fit a straight horn very well. This was the rehearsal and I had brought my straight 891Z because I also had a recording that same day were I know the 891Z to be the best choice. Now that rehearsal was for another gig and I didn't want to bring two different trombones.
Nah, that rehearsal went alright except from that duo trumpet + trombone with piano accompaniment. The tune was "Christmas Song" and the arranger had put the melody in the trombone for the middle section. The key was C major and the solo started C,B,C, Bb, starting on sixth following seventh and then back to sixth and after that a minor septima leap to the first or maybe to the 5th for a Bb. I felt that start not to work the best for me on the straight horn I had with my 11C-ish mouthpiece so I did not even try it. On the rehearsal I put it up an octave, and then it was no problem. At the concert I solved it because I brought my Bach 36BO with a slightly larger mouthpiece and played it as written using the f-valve for the C,B,C. Then that solo was no problem.
An F-valve sure makes things easier sometimes.

/Tom

I have a straight pipe for my Edwards. The horn I use in symphony and concert band is normally setup straight.
Nice about Edwards. WHen you need to change, you can.

I hadn’t seen a couple of the best defenses of the straight horn:
1: sometimes it’s just more fun to play!
2: it removes a mental variable from the performance; there is no question as to if a particular note should be played with valve or without. Life is just simpler.

Yes, it may be excessive to have multiple .547s, but each tool has a purpose.

Slide Hampton and David Gibson don’t have to worry about where a note might lay better, but Glenn Ferris might have too many options?

It’s a tool.
Works well in certain situations, not exactly necessary in any.

Ymmv