TromboneChat

Hi,, I'm looking to get a 2nd horn, soloist. I have a silver plated king 3b. It's got a nice bright tone.

I was thinking about maybe getting a slightler larger bore than the .508, but still be in the jazzy range.

Also preferential to sterling horns. I haven't played one, but i hear they are warmer, richer tones. And I do love the aesthetic of my silver plated so I wouldn't mind sticking with it.

You might be a good candidate for a 78h. I don't think you can find them in silver, but you can get one plated if you want. They are .522 bore, but run on the bright side of that size to me.

A 32h is 500/522 dual bore with a duskier sound, and there are some Yamahas with a similar configuration, I think the 356.

Olds Recordings can be finished to be really stunning visually, and are I think 495/510 dual bore. Darker, and super powerful sound. There's the Getzen 3508 which is a nice dual bore 500/508, and a Shires Micheal Davis Plus which is 509, but is a hell of a player, I think it feels bigger than a 3b.

Sterling bells are going to limit your options significantly. You might get a sterling bell from a boutique brand. Maybe something like a Rath R3 with the nickel-silver bell, that's a really nice horn, but you probably won't find one used. In reality the sound between a brass and sterling bell is more about feel, less about actual sound differences. I had a sterling bell 3b for a while. It sounded great, but was really heavy, and hard to play.

Sounds like you're describing a 3B+. They can be had with sterling bells, though they aren't common.

Johns right - sounds like a 3B+. I have also always thought the 607/8 (?) were actually professional standard not the step up horns they are billed as - theres quite afew of them around and sometimes cheap. Then there is one of the Yamahas that has a 525 bore (not sure of the numbers?), some of them from the 80's are superb instruments still, all the tenors in one of my sections have them... Oh that Kanstul were still with us! .. Doug

What kind of soloing (or other playing) are you anticipating? For what I'm gleaming about your playing, the 3B you already have is probably pretty close to the ideal horn (at least on paper). What kind of budget are you anticipating as well?

FWIW, the 3B and 3B+ have the same bell section, but the slide receiver is a slightly different size. So you can't just put a 3B+ slide on a 3B bell, but you could order a new 3B+ slide and have the tenon swapped, using your existing bell section. That's probably one of the more economical options to get what you are asking for (I think) but there are lots of horns out there so if you wanted something with more contrast vs. the King there might be "better" options for you.

I agree with Doug that the King 607/608 should be given consideration. I have encouraged many students over the years to buy a used 607/608 as a step-up horn before moving to the larger .547 bore horns. They play rather well and I would categorize them as “compact-playing .525 bore.”

What is interesting is that many of those students have kept the 607/608 horn as their solo/jazz/pit orchestra horn when they continue beyond taking lessons with me. I would probably own one myself if it were not for the left-hand thumb going around the brace to activate the rotor.

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:53 am What kind of soloing (or other playing) are you anticipating? For what I'm gleaming about your playing, the 3B you already have is probably pretty close to the ideal horn (at least on paper). What kind of budget are you anticipating as well?

FWIW, the 3B and 3B+ have the same bell section, but the slide receiver is a slightly different size. So you can't just put a 3B+ slide on a 3B bell, but you could order a new 3B+ slide and have the tenon swapped, using your existing bell section. That's probably one of the more economical options to get what you are asking for (I think) but there are lots of horns out there so if you wanted something with more contrast vs. the King there might be "better" options for you.

Yeah that sounds like a good idea. I am interested in the 3B plus after some more research. What does it mean to have the tenon swapped?

I've found some sterling 3b plus but it has a brass gooseneck. What I've got now is full plated. So it could go nicely with the 3b+slide

leafylief wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:18 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:53 am What kind of soloing (or other playing) are you anticipating? For what I'm gleaming about your playing, the 3B you already have is probably pretty close to the ideal horn (at least on paper). What kind of budget are you anticipating as well?

FWIW, the 3B and 3B+ have the same bell section, but the slide receiver is a slightly different size. So you can't just put a 3B+ slide on a 3B bell, but you could order a new 3B+ slide and have the tenon swapped, using your existing bell section. That's probably one of the more economical options to get what you are asking for (I think) but there are lots of horns out there so if you wanted something with more contrast vs. the King there might be "better" options for you.

Yeah that sounds like a good idea. I am interested in the 3B plus after some more research. What does it mean to have the tenon swapped?

I've found some sterling 3b plus but it has a brass gooseneck. What I've got now is full plated. So it could go nicely with the 3b+slide

My understanding is that the sterling bells have yellow brass tuning slides & goosenecks but the silver plated ones have plated tuning slides & goosenecks. I'm not an authority on that though so take that with a grain of salt.

The tenon has several names. I'm failing to remember what else it is called, but I'm referring to the part at the end of the slide, past the cork barrel. On Kings, this includes the ring that is used to make the connection against the threads on the bell section. A tech can typically remove (sometimes cutting, sometimes other methods) and add one that will fit so that it is compatible with the other bell, in this case a 3B.

That said, you could also just get a 3B+. The slides wouldn't be swappable but you would have two full horns then.

Yeah you are correct about plating vs sterling. Although, I'm wondering if there are older king 3b+ that are full sterling? Not sure. So having a plated gooseneck and sterling bell could be cool.

I live in a land without competent techs anywhere near tho. That's one issue. Another is finding just a slide. But if i did I wouldn't have as much cost.

I'm in no rush. I want a second horn in general, just to have something if one of them needs work. I also wanna do some recording, some soloing over acoustic bands, non jazz stuff. Some electronic music. So yeah, the warmth (with the nice cut) of a King 3b+ could be a cool thing to go for.

I"ll just keep my eye out for a while and see what pops up.

If you're looking for "warmth", you may want to consider something even larger and/or something that has different characteristics. The kings tend to be on the more aggressive side. The Yamaha medium bores are really excellent and are quite different, at least on paper, although my experience reflects that as well. The 645 or 630, for example, have 8.5", one-piece bells with unsoldered beads. The slides on those models are yellow brass as well, in contrast with the King slides which have nickel outers. That contributes to a sound that, in my opinion, is more covered or "warm" - some even call the Yamaha sound "boring" though I find that paticular adjective to be a little too extreme in my opinion.

Bach 36 are also often considered the "good" Bach - again on paper for reasons that are probably not worth getting into here. Lots of discussions about that particular model that make it an appealing candidate.

I noticed in your other thread you aren't a big fan of valves, though if you want warmth, you'd be hard pressed to do better than a bass trombone... or perhaps a large bore. Might be too far in that direction though, based on what you said you'd be using it for... but something to consider nonehteless.

Even a silver plated Silver Sonic (rare,but they exist) has only a solid silver bell. The rest of the horn is silver plated brass with nickel silver (an alloy of copper and nickel, no silver) slide tubes.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:48 am You might be a good candidate for a 78h. I don't think you can find them in silver, but you can get one plated if you want. They are .522 bore, but run on the bright side of that size to me.

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... 37-74-7089

ConnBone18 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:45 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:48 am You might be a good candidate for a 78h. I don't think you can find them in silver, but you can get one plated if you want. They are .522 bore, but run on the bright side of that size to me.

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... 37-74-7089

Very nice! good find.

JohnL wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:59 am Sounds like you're describing a 3B+. They can be had with sterling bells, though they aren't common.

Noah Gladstone at BrassArk has a sterling bell 3b+ for sale (scroll dow a bit).

http://brassark.com/sale/

You could consider a straight Bach 42 in silver plate. There may be a few in circulation, including from marching bands etc. For a bit more liveliness, there‘s also the LT slide in nickel silver.

I wasn‘t a big fan of the Bach 42 until I tried a straight one with an LT slide. It‘s not for everyone, some say the LT slide can make the sound a bit hard which I could agree with in symphonic section playing but as a soloist I‘d look at the additional clarity in articulations and earlier access to some colour as benefits.

MikeS wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:11 am

JohnL wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:59 am Sounds like you're describing a 3B+. They can be had with sterling bells, though they aren't common.

Noah Gladstone at BrassArk has a sterling bell 3b+ for sale (scroll dow a bit).

http://brassark.com/sale/

Thank you so much! This is such a rare find, and it was a good deal for a used horn. I ended up buying it. I'll check in with yall with how I like it
Excited for my new horn coming in

Just saw this thread, and got a new idea!

David Gibson plays a straight nickel Rath R4.
Such a nice horn, I had a chance to blow a couple of notes on it, super comfortable and flexible.
If the 3b+ doesn't work out (also a great horn) give it a look!
It was the best Rath I'd ever tried.

Good luck!

Yeah, Rath's seem like they've got a beautiful tone from the videos I've seen.

Side rant, why is it that SO MANY instrument review videos on youtube have improper miking?? I'm shocked. Truly.

Anyway, just wanted to post the update. The 3B+ was the perfect upgrade. It's got the degree of warmth I want, and i can just put on a smaller mouth piece if I want more brightness. It doesn't punch quite as much as the plated horn, but the resonance of that sterling silver bell is to die for.

I had heard it's harder to play? Curious about your experiences @hyperbolica. Overall this actually seems easier to play. It might be hard to assign the differences to the bell or the larger bore differences honestly, but I'm guessing the difference in resonance is the bell, and the warmth is the bore size.

Either way, I'm super happy with it! I'll keep my silver plated 3B for now, it'll be great in brass bands with it's ability to cut brightly.

Thanks everyone for their input! Esp @JohnL for the lead!

I have an Edwards with a sterling bell. I love it. A rose tuning slide is good with it. I use a 525/547 or a 547/562 nickle slide with it.

leafylief wrote: ↑Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:44 pm I had heard it's harder to play? Curious about your experiences @hyperbolica. Overall this actually seems easier to play. It might be hard to assign the differences to the bell or the larger bore differences honestly, but I'm guessing the difference in resonance is the bell, and the warmth is the bore size.

Congrats on the new horn! The ‘harder to play’ comment is interesting. I’ve found that my Sterling 3Bs are harder to blend in a trombone section and also harder to hear yourself at lower volumes, say mf and under. I switched to a yellow brass Shires MD+ and it’s much easier to get a brighter intensity to the sound at lower volumes. The Sterling 3B doesn’t start to really light up until you’re playing much louder. For me, it also feels like it takes a bit more work to get it to respond.

In saying that, there’s a certain weight and projection to the sound that you can’t replicate on brass bells, and for power playing you can’t beat it. I still love Sterling 3bs and many greats have played them over their careers in most settings.