TromboneChat

Are these horns a rare breed? I've never seen one in the wild before.

You are probably talking about 2 models: P22 and P24. The last one was made around 1978 or 1979. At that time bass trombones were no where near as common as they are today. Also, that's 40 some years ago. Age has taken some of them. You can find them occasionally, but nowhere near as easily as similarly aged Conn, Bach, or Holton models.

They had a lot of the same characteristics I think, which would mean you could use them in a modern setting, right?

they're good horns, but they are also pretty oddball by modern conventions. All nickel with red bells doesn't really match anything made today. Add in pretty awful ergonomics, small valves, small bell throats... you have your answer.

I'd love to own a GR bass or a P-22, but I certainly wouldn't use it often IRL.

Doing a quick google search, I saw that there was an S model and a P model. The P model had bigger valves, but they still had bad ergonomics.

I've owned P24g (9" bell, double valve, rose bell) and an S23 or S24 (yellow brass single valve, TIS).

The P24g is small by modern standards, but it's a great horn. The S24 (or whatever it was) was a lot of fun. A bit heavy, but barks. Only the George Roberts model P22 is valued much by people today. None of them are Shires basses. I think they all play well, but they aren't for everyone.

Actually, for me they had good ergonomics -- thumb behind bell brace so the weight of the horn goes on the web of the left hand (between thumb and forefinger). But Burgerbob is right -- the Olds sound is not a modern sound.

It is a very interesting horn nonetheless, and I would be doubling between tenor/bass if I did buy one.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:53 pm...S23 or S24 (yellow brass single valve, TIS).

SIngle valve? That's an S-20. S-23's had two valves. There was an S-24G (similar to the P-24G, but with old-style small valves), and there's an S-24 (no letter) mentioned (but not shown) in one Olds catalog, but I've never seen one nor talked to anyone who's seen one.

Olds basses aren't rare, but they aren't all that common any more (unless you happen to live in my house - then you can't move without tripping over one). There's a bucketload of information on my site (http://www.itsabear.com), if you care to look.

Well then. It's nice you meet you! I think it's your site that I got most of the info off of. (before you linked the page)

I have a '78 P-24G and I'm happy with it. The thumb trigger was an odd U-shape so I filled it in with a piece of delrin so now it feels like a round straight bar. I find it plays as easily as any of the other basses I've owned in the past: Bach 50, Holton 181, King Duo Gravis, Kanstul 169i, Yamaha 613.

I don't believe it was ever intended to be an orchestral horn because it was designed with the smaller 9" bell (still with a bass-sized bell throat) and an abundance of nickel-silver (main tuning slide, all of the tubing of both attachments and the entire handslide).

I bought mine as only an incomplete bell section: the slide receiver was missing and there was no handslide. I had my tech install a Bach slide receiver and I picked up an Edwards 0.547/0.562" slide (yellow brass, nickel crook with oversleeves) to go with it. For all types of music, I use an Edwards sterling silver T2 leadpipe with a Bach 1 1/4 mouthpiece.

I've gotten compliments on my sound. Even though I've tried, I'm not able to overblow it where it gets blatty. The horn just cuts through the orchestra without sapping every bit of air out of my lungs. It's not for everybody, but it's perfect for me.

The only true test then would be trying one out. Although I doubt there would be one in my area.

Here's a video from this past June where we played Olympic Fanfare. This was our 1st performance post-COVID so there was about 40-50% orchestra participation, so just one player per part instead of multiples. You get a good sense of how the P-24G sounds from the audience.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:22 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:53 pm...S23 or S24 (yellow brass single valve, TIS).

SIngle valve? That's an S-20.

Yeah, I knew it was an S2x something or other. I replaced the single valve with a pair. It played great. Heavy slide, though.

Olds are in general underrated, if sometimes quirky (meaning basically different from old Conns and Bachs)

I had an 9 inch tis single valve model for a brief period. It played great after i had a schmidt valve put on instead of that tiny rotor it came with.

Imho these horns have a largely underrated sound. I find the bells themselves to be quite excellent, and have used them with modernized setups often. As for the rest of the horn, I've played pretty much every variant of the P and S lines, and it's pretty clear theres some limiting factors, particularly in the valve area (S valves are more or less a giant turd), as well as linkage setup. I saw somewhere the bell throat referenced as small, but I've compared measurements with a bunch of other bells, and while not the largest bell throat out there, it's cetainly larger than some other options even produced today. The stem, however, does start out a little smaller than most morderen bass bells. With the right tuning slide setup this isn't an issue, or conversely I've opened up the diameter on the last inch or so a couple of times with positive results.

I actually just picked up a new S24G bell for myself that I'm quite excited to start using, and would definitely put this on the wish list of bells I'd like to see back in production.

Finally got it mounted. Man, nothing new plays anything like these bells. Might be worth having a mandrel made.

BAC owns the Roberts S22,S24G, P22,P24G bell mandrel. They have been making bells on it for over 10 years. All their early basses have that bell.

Benn

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:32 pm they're good horns, but they are also pretty oddball by modern conventions. All nickel with red bells doesn't really match anything made today. Add in pretty awful ergonomics, small valves, small bell throats... you have your answer.

I'd love to own a GR bass or a P-22, but I certainly wouldn't use it often IRL.

apple to orange maybe, but just to offer a non-combative contrarian opinion: many years ago i tried an olds with greenhoe valves. it was easily one of the best horns i've ever played and my initial impression was that it would work fine in a section equipped with modern instruments, though i never tested that theory

freeman wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:40 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:32 pm they're good horns, but they are also pretty oddball by modern conventions. All nickel with red bells doesn't really match anything made today. Add in pretty awful ergonomics, small valves, small bell throats... you have your answer.

I'd love to own a GR bass or a P-22, but I certainly wouldn't use it often IRL.

apple to orange maybe, but just to offer a non-combative contrarian opinion: many years ago i tried an olds with greenhoe valves. it was easily one of the best horns i've ever played and my initial impression was that it would work fine in a section equipped with modern instruments, though i never tested that theory

With modern valves, I'd love to try it!!

I had a Schmidt valve on one of the Single valve dual bore Olds basses. Played fantastic. Sorta wish i had kept it.