Jeremiah 48 text
Highlights
- Moab too
Summary
- The cities of Moab are destroyed
- Her people in misery
- Moab's ways are slack
- So Yahweh will send them ruin too
- Moabites are exhorted to flee their cities
- But in the end Yahweh will "restore the fortunes of Moab"
Questions and Observations
1) The opening of the chapter leaves it unclear whether we are reading reportage or prediction, but it becomes clear later that prediction is meant.
2) The flavour seems to be "It's all gone wrong for us, and you're much worse; fairness says it'll come to you too".
3) Why the sudden switch to favour for Moab at the end? I thought the Moabites were usually enemies of Judah, worshipping different gods. I guess this cannot have been an unchanging state of affairs - neighbours must get on with each other.
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ttf_MoominDave
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 07, 2017, 01:00AMAh John, I am not a perfect scholar. I am an imperfect human being with many projects currently on the go - building works on the house, researching and writing a pamphlet on the >170 year history of my brass band reading for our anniversary concert next month, getting a musical commission finished for a friend on a tight schedule, doing the player and conductor management for a 29-piece amateur brass band (as well as the same for low brass for 4 orchestras), keeping playing skills up to scratch on trombone and piano, doing other reading I'm already committed to (I have a large 'read when free' pile already in existence that never seems to reduce in size from year to year... I may yet complete reading 'The Canterbury Tales', which is a fine fine piece of work, but rather slow going in 14th century English) - plus of course my regular 9-5 job. I must prioritise my planned reading - which is not to say that such a recommendation cannot be read, but to say that it's unlikely to happen within the next year or two...
All I was asking for was for you to lay out the logical bones of one of the self-contradictions that you purport that a non-supernatural worldview holds. But if you feel that it would do any of your reasons a disservice to lay them out simply, I understand. It's a shame - I find that laying my thoughts on something down in a pithy manner tends to help me get them clearer and more easily communicated, and allows me to identify more readily their inherent flaws.
Thanks, Dave, let me think about the best way to give you the skeleton of my objections to naturalism in a compact way.
All I was asking for was for you to lay out the logical bones of one of the self-contradictions that you purport that a non-supernatural worldview holds. But if you feel that it would do any of your reasons a disservice to lay them out simply, I understand. It's a shame - I find that laying my thoughts on something down in a pithy manner tends to help me get them clearer and more easily communicated, and allows me to identify more readily their inherent flaws.
Thanks, Dave, let me think about the best way to give you the skeleton of my objections to naturalism in a compact way.
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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Quote from: John the Theologian on Jun 07, 2017, 05:05AMThanks, Dave, let me think about the best way to give you the skeleton of my objections to naturalism in a compact way.
I'll be interested in the outline as well.
I'm not as busy as Dave (used to be--shut that shite down when I got the chance--not going back if I can help it), but that book just isn't likely to get very high on my reading list either. The basic arguments are still of interest though, and a lot of people learn as well or better with questions and answers than reading. I always consider discussion with those who study and write the books far more productive than the same amount of time spent in a reading session. Would you rather read the book or have the author talk you through it? Of course it's not like an either-or kinda thing, but rather an assessment of the different types of investments. Of course access to the authors/prof types is hard for most to come by, so it's an opportunity of privilege.
I'll be interested in the outline as well.
I'm not as busy as Dave (used to be--shut that shite down when I got the chance--not going back if I can help it), but that book just isn't likely to get very high on my reading list either. The basic arguments are still of interest though, and a lot of people learn as well or better with questions and answers than reading. I always consider discussion with those who study and write the books far more productive than the same amount of time spent in a reading session. Would you rather read the book or have the author talk you through it? Of course it's not like an either-or kinda thing, but rather an assessment of the different types of investments. Of course access to the authors/prof types is hard for most to come by, so it's an opportunity of privilege.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Jeremiah 49 text
Highlights
- Also Ammon, Edom, Damascus, and more
Summary
- Yahweh is cross that the people of Gad now worship Moloch
- Lumping them in with the adjacent Ammonites, it is prophesied that this territory too will be destroyed
- But again in the end Yahweh will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites
- Edom will be turned into a desolate wasteland
- Damascus and its king will fall
- Kedar and Hazor will be treated similarly to Edom
- Elam too - but its fortunes will be restored. This prophecy is dated to the start of Zedekiah's reign (reigned from 597 BC).
Questions and Observations
1) More ultimate restoring of fortunes for a rival country with a long history of needle with Judah. I don't understand this. And why some but not others?
2) Edom is to be punished - but no sins are listed for the punishment. And no promise of ultimate restoration. The consideration seems to be that this is where Esau fled to?
3) Why is Damascus "the city of my joy"?
4) Elam was a civilisation on the far side of the Babylonians.
Highlights
- Also Ammon, Edom, Damascus, and more
Summary
- Yahweh is cross that the people of Gad now worship Moloch
- Lumping them in with the adjacent Ammonites, it is prophesied that this territory too will be destroyed
- But again in the end Yahweh will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites
- Edom will be turned into a desolate wasteland
- Damascus and its king will fall
- Kedar and Hazor will be treated similarly to Edom
- Elam too - but its fortunes will be restored. This prophecy is dated to the start of Zedekiah's reign (reigned from 597 BC).
Questions and Observations
1) More ultimate restoring of fortunes for a rival country with a long history of needle with Judah. I don't understand this. And why some but not others?
2) Edom is to be punished - but no sins are listed for the punishment. And no promise of ultimate restoration. The consideration seems to be that this is where Esau fled to?
3) Why is Damascus "the city of my joy"?
4) Elam was a civilisation on the far side of the Babylonians.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Jeremiah 50 text
Jeremiah 51 text
Highlights
- And also, the big one... Babylon
Summary
Chapter 50
- Babylon too will fall, to a force "out of the north"
- The exiled Israelites and Judahites will unite at this time, acknowledging Yahweh
- It will be good to leave Babylon at this time, as it is being plundered
- Yahweh is punishing Babylon as he punished Assyria
- Exiles will return, and will prove faithful to Yahweh; those that stayed will be pardoned their sins
- Babylon will be destroyed so utterly that no one will stay there
Chapter 51
- Babylon will fall and it will be brutal
- The exiles should partake in the military takedown of the regime that has held them prisoner
- Yahweh wills it all as vengeance for the fall of Judah, using the Medes as his military instrument
- This poetry allegedly written by Jeremiah in the fourth year of Zedekiah (594 BC), on an occasion that Zedekiah and Jeremiah visited Babylon
- Given to Seraiah, Zedekiah's quartermaster, who was commanded by Jeremiah to read it in Babylon, then destroy the writing by sinking the book in the Euphrates to symbolise Babylon's fall
Questions and Observations
1) This must logically have been written at the time of Cyrus. The ongoing tangent suggests that some will differ from that opinion.
2) Jeremiah acts as an equal-opportunities offender when visiting Babylon. Though he doesn't say this stuff out loud, but writes it down, and commands the writing be symbolically destroyed.
3) This penultimate chapter ends: "Thus far are the words of Jeremiah". So we can assume that the final chapter was not written by him.
Jeremiah 51 text
Highlights
- And also, the big one... Babylon
Summary
Chapter 50
- Babylon too will fall, to a force "out of the north"
- The exiled Israelites and Judahites will unite at this time, acknowledging Yahweh
- It will be good to leave Babylon at this time, as it is being plundered
- Yahweh is punishing Babylon as he punished Assyria
- Exiles will return, and will prove faithful to Yahweh; those that stayed will be pardoned their sins
- Babylon will be destroyed so utterly that no one will stay there
Chapter 51
- Babylon will fall and it will be brutal
- The exiles should partake in the military takedown of the regime that has held them prisoner
- Yahweh wills it all as vengeance for the fall of Judah, using the Medes as his military instrument
- This poetry allegedly written by Jeremiah in the fourth year of Zedekiah (594 BC), on an occasion that Zedekiah and Jeremiah visited Babylon
- Given to Seraiah, Zedekiah's quartermaster, who was commanded by Jeremiah to read it in Babylon, then destroy the writing by sinking the book in the Euphrates to symbolise Babylon's fall
Questions and Observations
1) This must logically have been written at the time of Cyrus. The ongoing tangent suggests that some will differ from that opinion.
2) Jeremiah acts as an equal-opportunities offender when visiting Babylon. Though he doesn't say this stuff out loud, but writes it down, and commands the writing be symbolically destroyed.
3) This penultimate chapter ends: "Thus far are the words of Jeremiah". So we can assume that the final chapter was not written by him.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Jeremiah 52 text
Highlights
- Recap of the fall of Jerusalem
Summary
- Zedekiah became king when he was 21, and reigned 11 years
- He followed Jehoiakim in annoying Yahweh
- He rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar, who was not please about this
- In Z's 9th year, 10th month, 10th day he besieged Jerusalem, surrounding it completely
- By the 11th year, 4th month, 9th day, the famine was so severe that no food remained
- On this day a breach was made in the walls
- The army (with Z) responded by fleeing at night through a gate
- Z and army were caught and defeated on the plains of Jericho
- Z was taken to Nebuchadnezzar, who put his eyes out after killing his sons and officials in front of him
- N took Z to Babylon, where he imprisoned him for the rest of his life
- On the 5th month, 10th day, N entered Jerusalem; he burned the temple, the palace, and all other houses; the walls were broken down
- The remnant of people were captured and carried off; only some of the poorest were left, to tend the land
- The temple adornments of Solomon were broken up and taken to Babylon
- The chief priest, his second, other officers, and notable citizens, were taken to N at Riblah, who executed them in front of Z
- 3 mass deportations are enumerated
- The already-imprisoned-in-Babylon Jehoiachin was released from prison after 37 years of his exile, by the new king of Babylon, Evil-merodach, who treated him well, and gave him an allowance
Questions and Observations
1) So Zedekiah was born 618 BC, and was 32 when Jerusalem fell.
2) Nebuchadnezzar began to reign 605 BC. His 19th year ties up with the fall of Jerusalem - 587 BC.
3) The 3 deportations are given in times of his regnal dates:
- In the years following Babylon's overthrow of Assyria, political allegiances for the smaller states caught between Assyria and Babylon on the Eastern side and Egypt on the Western side were difficult and complicated; Judah jumped first one way then the other in efforts to stay afloat, as did Israel, and I don't doubt that the other rival kingdoms around them were also compelled to do the same.
- In 605 BC Babylon defeated Egypt in battle at Carchemish, led by Nebuchadnezzar shortly before he became king. Following this Jehoiakim of Judah began paying Babylon tribute.
- In 601 BC Egypt defeated Babylon, and Judah revolted against Babylon,
- In 598 BC Babylon besieged Jerusalem, during which Jehoiakim died, and it fell in 597 BC, after which the first deportation occurred, Jehoiakim's son and successor Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) taken. Jehoiakim's brother Zedekiah was installed as king.
- In the events described here, Zedekiah revolted against Babylon, with the dire results described, with the second deportation occurring in 587 BC.
- The third deportation appears not to be well narrated (at least yet to us in this pass through - but also in general) - this is taken as occurring in 582 BC.
4) Jehoiachin was exiled in the second deportation - 597 BC. So the 37th year of his captivity would be 562 BC. This ties up with Babylonian records, which tell us that Amel-Marduk ("Evil-merodach" here) began his reign in Oct 562 BC. He was born in either 605 or 615 BC, so may well have been alive to see the fall of Babylon.
Highlights
- Recap of the fall of Jerusalem
Summary
- Zedekiah became king when he was 21, and reigned 11 years
- He followed Jehoiakim in annoying Yahweh
- He rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar, who was not please about this
- In Z's 9th year, 10th month, 10th day he besieged Jerusalem, surrounding it completely
- By the 11th year, 4th month, 9th day, the famine was so severe that no food remained
- On this day a breach was made in the walls
- The army (with Z) responded by fleeing at night through a gate
- Z and army were caught and defeated on the plains of Jericho
- Z was taken to Nebuchadnezzar, who put his eyes out after killing his sons and officials in front of him
- N took Z to Babylon, where he imprisoned him for the rest of his life
- On the 5th month, 10th day, N entered Jerusalem; he burned the temple, the palace, and all other houses; the walls were broken down
- The remnant of people were captured and carried off; only some of the poorest were left, to tend the land
- The temple adornments of Solomon were broken up and taken to Babylon
- The chief priest, his second, other officers, and notable citizens, were taken to N at Riblah, who executed them in front of Z
- 3 mass deportations are enumerated
- The already-imprisoned-in-Babylon Jehoiachin was released from prison after 37 years of his exile, by the new king of Babylon, Evil-merodach, who treated him well, and gave him an allowance
Questions and Observations
1) So Zedekiah was born 618 BC, and was 32 when Jerusalem fell.
2) Nebuchadnezzar began to reign 605 BC. His 19th year ties up with the fall of Jerusalem - 587 BC.
3) The 3 deportations are given in times of his regnal dates:
- [li]7th year (599 BC) - 3023 people[/li][li]18th year (588 BC) - 832 people[/li][li]23rd year (583 BC) - 745 people[/li]
- In the years following Babylon's overthrow of Assyria, political allegiances for the smaller states caught between Assyria and Babylon on the Eastern side and Egypt on the Western side were difficult and complicated; Judah jumped first one way then the other in efforts to stay afloat, as did Israel, and I don't doubt that the other rival kingdoms around them were also compelled to do the same.
- In 605 BC Babylon defeated Egypt in battle at Carchemish, led by Nebuchadnezzar shortly before he became king. Following this Jehoiakim of Judah began paying Babylon tribute.
- In 601 BC Egypt defeated Babylon, and Judah revolted against Babylon,
- In 598 BC Babylon besieged Jerusalem, during which Jehoiakim died, and it fell in 597 BC, after which the first deportation occurred, Jehoiakim's son and successor Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) taken. Jehoiakim's brother Zedekiah was installed as king.
- In the events described here, Zedekiah revolted against Babylon, with the dire results described, with the second deportation occurring in 587 BC.
- The third deportation appears not to be well narrated (at least yet to us in this pass through - but also in general) - this is taken as occurring in 582 BC.
4) Jehoiachin was exiled in the second deportation - 597 BC. So the 37th year of his captivity would be 562 BC. This ties up with Babylonian records, which tell us that Amel-Marduk ("Evil-merodach" here) began his reign in Oct 562 BC. He was born in either 605 or 615 BC, so may well have been alive to see the fall of Babylon.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis
Deuteronomy
1 Chronicles
Job
Isaiah
Genesis
- [li]Big picture stuff
- [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
- [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]
- [li]...many laws are given[/li]
- [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]
Deuteronomy
- [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]
- [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]
- [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]
- [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]
- [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]
- [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]
- [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]
- [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
[/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]
1 Chronicles
- [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]
- [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]
- [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]
- [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]
- [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]
- [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]
- [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]
- [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]
Job
- [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]
- [li]Large collection of devotional songs/poems, whose themes include
- [li]Overarching powerfulness of Yahweh[/li][li]Need to praise and thank Yahweh[/li][li]How bad it feels when Yahweh feels absent, and how good it feels when he feels present[/li]
- [li]An extra psalm[/li]
- [li]Large collection of wise sayings, many attributed to King Solomon. Major themes include:
- [li]Industriousness, Humility, Fair dealing, Marital faithfulness, Religious devotion, Political savvy[/li]
- [li]A harshly pragmatic sermon, attributed to Solomon, with the moral: All that one achieves will perish; the only true joy is to be taken in doing the tasks in front of you[/li]
- [li]A borderline erotic exaltation of the joys of love, possibly between Solomon and his bride, possibly between his bride and her lover[/li]
- [li]The point of wisdom is to achieve salvation through Yahweh; those that reject this are accursed[/li]
- [li]The collected wisdom of Joshua ben Sira (c.200 BC), a large and rambling miscellany of precepts; major themes include
- [li]Death, Friendship, Happiness, Shame, Money, Sin, Social Justice, Etiquette, Women, History[/li]
Isaiah
- [li]Oracles of Isaiah ben Amoz, who lived in Judah up to the time of King Hezekiah (c.700 BC)
- [li]Yahweh's judgement is coming - only the faithful will pass the test, and Isaiah is worried that Judah is not faithful enough[/li][li]Various other nations will come to grief, but a servant of Yahweh will arise, leading the faithful to salvation in a recast Jerusalem[/li][li]Current events - Hezekiah's escape from crushing by Sennacherib[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia acts as an instrument of Yahweh, ending the exile, and the once-supreme Babylon is crushed[/li][li]The servant will show the way to salvation under the judgement of Yahweh[/li]
- [li]Notably vitriolic oracles and biography of the life of Jeremiah, a priest from Anathoth, who lived in Jerusalem at the time of its fall (587 BC)[/li][li]Jeremiah warns everyone that Babylon is coming to crush Judah, because of their drifting to other religious practices; this goes down very badly in general, and other prophets with different messages are more favoured[/li][li]The events up to, during, and a little after the fall of Jerusalem are described, as is the duration of the exile, and the end of it[/li]
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ttf_MoominDave
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Lamentations 1 text
Highlights
- A poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- Jerusalem is deserted; formerly great, now greatly diminished
- This is very sad...
- Its people dispersed amongst other nations, its civic functions abandoned
- The greater days are remembered, but for now its enemies have overcome
- This was its own fault, for not being faithful to Yahweh
- It is a battle to survive for those left behind
- Life is very dispiriting in this situation
Questions and Observations
1) We are still in the same context - bewailing the destruction of Jerusalem.
2) Traditionally we are also still with the same author, Jeremiah. The Wiki page suggests that this is not certain.
3) This is heartfelt and moving stuff.
Highlights
- A poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- Jerusalem is deserted; formerly great, now greatly diminished
- This is very sad...
- Its people dispersed amongst other nations, its civic functions abandoned
- The greater days are remembered, but for now its enemies have overcome
- This was its own fault, for not being faithful to Yahweh
- It is a battle to survive for those left behind
- Life is very dispiriting in this situation
Questions and Observations
1) We are still in the same context - bewailing the destruction of Jerusalem.
2) Traditionally we are also still with the same author, Jeremiah. The Wiki page suggests that this is not certain.
3) This is heartfelt and moving stuff.
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ttf_drizabone
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Summary of Jeremiah
- covered a period of about 40 years coinciding with the end of Judah as a nation, the decline of Assyria and the rise of Babylon
- called to be a prophet to the nations (in similar words to Paul's call to be an apostle to the nations)
- his preaching was critical of leaders in Judah for not teaching and leading according to the standards of the covenant for which they were responsible
- first Jeremiah preached for the people to repent so that they might not suffer at the hands of Babylon (ch 3)
- when the people rejected that then God's punishment was inevitable (ch21...)
- but God's punishment had the purpose of restoring the people if they accepted it (ch21, 24)
- to this end God announced the promise of a new covenant which God would enable the people to keep (ch31)
- but in the meantime Babylon conquered Jerusalem and exiled some of the people
- Jeremiah suffered because the people didn't like his message.
- covered a period of about 40 years coinciding with the end of Judah as a nation, the decline of Assyria and the rise of Babylon
- called to be a prophet to the nations (in similar words to Paul's call to be an apostle to the nations)
- his preaching was critical of leaders in Judah for not teaching and leading according to the standards of the covenant for which they were responsible
- first Jeremiah preached for the people to repent so that they might not suffer at the hands of Babylon (ch 3)
- when the people rejected that then God's punishment was inevitable (ch21...)
- but God's punishment had the purpose of restoring the people if they accepted it (ch21, 24)
- to this end God announced the promise of a new covenant which God would enable the people to keep (ch31)
- but in the meantime Babylon conquered Jerusalem and exiled some of the people
- Jeremiah suffered because the people didn't like his message.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Lamentations 2 text
Highlights
- A second poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- The Israelites feel abandoned and attacked by Yahweh
- Their kingdoms are now nothing, their warriors dead
- Yahweh determined to ruin them, which he did
- Conditions are too terrible to bear; there is no comfort to be taken
- They listened to the comforting predictions, not the realistic ones
- Jerusalem is a shadow of its former self; its enemies triumphant
- Its people weep and mourn
- Dead bodies line the streets
Questions and Observations
1) The clue is in the name with this book.
2) We are very fortunate to all live in places where such things do not happen. It behooves us all to spend time contemplating how much misery there is currently in Syria, where these kinds of things are still happening.
Highlights
- A second poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- The Israelites feel abandoned and attacked by Yahweh
- Their kingdoms are now nothing, their warriors dead
- Yahweh determined to ruin them, which he did
- Conditions are too terrible to bear; there is no comfort to be taken
- They listened to the comforting predictions, not the realistic ones
- Jerusalem is a shadow of its former self; its enemies triumphant
- Its people weep and mourn
- Dead bodies line the streets
Questions and Observations
1) The clue is in the name with this book.
2) We are very fortunate to all live in places where such things do not happen. It behooves us all to spend time contemplating how much misery there is currently in Syria, where these kinds of things are still happening.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Lamentations 3 text
Highlights
- A third poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- The writer has been reduced greatly through suffering
- He has been ambushed by Yahweh most conclusively
- They take comfort in feeling that Yahweh comes around to those that display faithfulness, and that it is always possible to start anew on this
- These things will not stay the same for ever
- And then Yahweh will repay those that worked for him to destroy Judah
Questions and Observations
1) I assume that Yahweh is the "He" referenced here.
2) A different focus to this poem than the previous two - a simple expression of grief in those is here an expression of hope in Yahweh.
3) One of the essential contradictions of this worldview is referenced here - firstly the Babylonians were instruments of Yahweh for destroying Judah - but later their own destruction by Yahweh is justified because they destroyed Judah. They do his bidding, and then are punished for that.
4) A short book this one, only 5 chapters in total. So I'll just flag up that the next one is the deuterocanonical diversion of Baruch (also short, only 6 chapters), before we head into the last lengthy tome that is Ezekiel.
Highlights
- A third poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- The writer has been reduced greatly through suffering
- He has been ambushed by Yahweh most conclusively
- They take comfort in feeling that Yahweh comes around to those that display faithfulness, and that it is always possible to start anew on this
- These things will not stay the same for ever
- And then Yahweh will repay those that worked for him to destroy Judah
Questions and Observations
1) I assume that Yahweh is the "He" referenced here.
2) A different focus to this poem than the previous two - a simple expression of grief in those is here an expression of hope in Yahweh.
3) One of the essential contradictions of this worldview is referenced here - firstly the Babylonians were instruments of Yahweh for destroying Judah - but later their own destruction by Yahweh is justified because they destroyed Judah. They do his bidding, and then are punished for that.
4) A short book this one, only 5 chapters in total. So I'll just flag up that the next one is the deuterocanonical diversion of Baruch (also short, only 6 chapters), before we head into the last lengthy tome that is Ezekiel.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 08, 2017, 01:49AMLamentations 3 text
Highlights
- A third poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- The writer has been reduced greatly through suffering
- He has been ambushed by Yahweh most conclusively
- They take comfort in feeling that Yahweh comes around to those that display faithfulness, and that it is always possible to start anew on this
- this poem reminds me of Job
- why do you do from 1st person to 3rd person in point 2 to 3 above? I thought it was all personal.
- whatever person its in, there is a huge sudden unexpected transition from the complaining about the persecution to saying "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases ..." in v22.
Quote - And then Yahweh will repay those that worked for him to destroy Judah
I read this in personal terms - ie Yahweh would repay those who tormented Jeremiah - and then be extension those who are faithful.
Quote3) One of the essential contradictions of this worldview is referenced here - firstly the Babylonians were instruments of Yahweh for destroying Judah - but later their own destruction by Yahweh is justified because they destroyed Judah. They do his bidding, and then are punished for that.
I thought that Babylon was to be punished because they exceeded their mission: they got arrogant about their status and forgot that they were dependent on Yahweh. This was mentioned in Isaiah and Jeremiah (I think). But then again God says that he can treat us like a potter treats his clay pots: make them for his own purposes and then destroy them and use the clay to make something else.
This topic is also related to the interaction of human and divine responsibility which we've done a few times already without any increase in average level of understanding.
Highlights
- A third poetic outpouring of grief
Summary
- The writer has been reduced greatly through suffering
- He has been ambushed by Yahweh most conclusively
- They take comfort in feeling that Yahweh comes around to those that display faithfulness, and that it is always possible to start anew on this
- this poem reminds me of Job
- why do you do from 1st person to 3rd person in point 2 to 3 above? I thought it was all personal.
- whatever person its in, there is a huge sudden unexpected transition from the complaining about the persecution to saying "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases ..." in v22.
Quote - And then Yahweh will repay those that worked for him to destroy Judah
I read this in personal terms - ie Yahweh would repay those who tormented Jeremiah - and then be extension those who are faithful.
Quote3) One of the essential contradictions of this worldview is referenced here - firstly the Babylonians were instruments of Yahweh for destroying Judah - but later their own destruction by Yahweh is justified because they destroyed Judah. They do his bidding, and then are punished for that.
I thought that Babylon was to be punished because they exceeded their mission: they got arrogant about their status and forgot that they were dependent on Yahweh. This was mentioned in Isaiah and Jeremiah (I think). But then again God says that he can treat us like a potter treats his clay pots: make them for his own purposes and then destroy them and use the clay to make something else.
This topic is also related to the interaction of human and divine responsibility which we've done a few times already without any increase in average level of understanding.
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ttf_drizabone
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Lamentations 4 text
Highlights
- Judah: degraded, punished, deservingly
- Hope
Summary
- the people of Israel have become ruined just like the ruins of the temple: they were precious sons and it shouldn't have come to this
- their situation is dire: worse than Sodom's
- they were corrupt and disobedient and deserved their punishment
- but God will relent and bring his people home
- but the other countries should watch out.
Questions and Observations
- tough love?
Highlights
- Judah: degraded, punished, deservingly
- Hope
Summary
- the people of Israel have become ruined just like the ruins of the temple: they were precious sons and it shouldn't have come to this
- their situation is dire: worse than Sodom's
- they were corrupt and disobedient and deserved their punishment
- but God will relent and bring his people home
- but the other countries should watch out.
Questions and Observations
- tough love?
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ttf_drizabone
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Lamentations 5 text
Highlights
- Judah: punished, but repentant and hopeful of restoration
Summary
- God: remember what's happened to the people of Jerusalem.
- we are in total disgrace. This is the Promised Land that God gave to our ancestors and it has been turned over to strangers
- The social structure has been completely destroyed, everyone are orphans and widows
- we don't even have access to basic items we need to survive: we risk their lives to get bread.
- slaves rule over us. Jewish princes are humiliated. Young women are raped in town. Young men are forced to work as slaves. And no one respects their elders.
- The people had crowns on their heads, but God took them because of our sin.
- But you o Lord will reign forever
- "Why have you forgotten us completely?
- Please restore us to you: renew us
- Unless, you've totally rejected us
Questions and Observations
1) a more descriptive summary:
- they get God's attention
- they bring their situation to him and acknowledge that its their fault
- they acknowledge God's sovereignty
- they ask why he is punishing them
- and ask that he forgives them
- but acknowledge that its up to him and that they know he's rightly angry with them
2) that's not a happy ending is it
I wasn't sure whether to let Dave summarise the whole book. I think he could have but paused so I could contribute. Thanks.
Highlights
- Judah: punished, but repentant and hopeful of restoration
Summary
- God: remember what's happened to the people of Jerusalem.
- we are in total disgrace. This is the Promised Land that God gave to our ancestors and it has been turned over to strangers
- The social structure has been completely destroyed, everyone are orphans and widows
- we don't even have access to basic items we need to survive: we risk their lives to get bread.
- slaves rule over us. Jewish princes are humiliated. Young women are raped in town. Young men are forced to work as slaves. And no one respects their elders.
- The people had crowns on their heads, but God took them because of our sin.
- But you o Lord will reign forever
- "Why have you forgotten us completely?
- Please restore us to you: renew us
- Unless, you've totally rejected us
Questions and Observations
1) a more descriptive summary:
- they get God's attention
- they bring their situation to him and acknowledge that its their fault
- they acknowledge God's sovereignty
- they ask why he is punishing them
- and ask that he forgives them
- but acknowledge that its up to him and that they know he's rightly angry with them
2) that's not a happy ending is it
I wasn't sure whether to let Dave summarise the whole book. I think he could have but paused so I could contribute. Thanks.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Jun 08, 2017, 02:42PM- why do you do from 1st person to 3rd person in point 2 to 3 above? I thought it was all personal.
My bad. Just carelessness of style on my part.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 08, 2017, 02:42PMThis topic is also related to the interaction of human and divine responsibility which we've done a few times already without any increase in average level of understanding.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 08, 2017, 08:40PMI wasn't sure whether to let Dave summarise the whole book. I think he could have but paused so I could contribute. Thanks.
Yes, that was the idea. Always good to get more points of view, and motoring ahead leaves the other with more catch-up in play. I see also that you still want to compile your own Jeremiah summary, and I didn't want to pile too much on further before that appears. But these two books before Ezekiel are small self-contained units, and won't distract from that too badly.
My bad. Just carelessness of style on my part.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 08, 2017, 02:42PMThis topic is also related to the interaction of human and divine responsibility which we've done a few times already without any increase in average level of understanding.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 08, 2017, 08:40PMI wasn't sure whether to let Dave summarise the whole book. I think he could have but paused so I could contribute. Thanks.
Yes, that was the idea. Always good to get more points of view, and motoring ahead leaves the other with more catch-up in play. I see also that you still want to compile your own Jeremiah summary, and I didn't want to pile too much on further before that appears. But these two books before Ezekiel are small self-contained units, and won't distract from that too badly.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis
Deuteronomy
1 Chronicles
Job
Isaiah
Genesis
- [li]Big picture stuff
- [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
- [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]
- [li]...many laws are given[/li]
- [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]
Deuteronomy
- [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]
- [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]
- [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]
- [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]
- [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]
- [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]
- [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]
- [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
[/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]
1 Chronicles
- [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]
- [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]
- [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]
- [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]
- [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]
- [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]
- [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]
- [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]
Job
- [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]
- [li]Large collection of devotional songs/poems, whose themes include
- [li]Overarching powerfulness of Yahweh[/li][li]Need to praise and thank Yahweh[/li][li]How bad it feels when Yahweh feels absent, and how good it feels when he feels present[/li]
- [li]An extra psalm[/li]
- [li]Large collection of wise sayings, many attributed to King Solomon. Major themes include:
- [li]Industriousness, Humility, Fair dealing, Marital faithfulness, Religious devotion, Political savvy[/li]
- [li]A harshly pragmatic sermon, attributed to Solomon, with the moral: All that one achieves will perish; the only true joy is to be taken in doing the tasks in front of you[/li]
- [li]A borderline erotic exaltation of the joys of love, possibly between Solomon and his bride, possibly between his bride and her lover[/li]
- [li]The point of wisdom is to achieve salvation through Yahweh; those that reject this are accursed[/li]
- [li]The collected wisdom of Joshua ben Sira (c.200 BC), a large and rambling miscellany of precepts; major themes include
- [li]Death, Friendship, Happiness, Shame, Money, Sin, Social Justice, Etiquette, Women, History[/li]
Isaiah
- [li]Oracles of Isaiah ben Amoz, who lived in Judah up to the time of King Hezekiah (c.700 BC)
- [li]Yahweh's judgement is coming - only the faithful will pass the test, and Isaiah is worried that Judah is not faithful enough[/li][li]Various other nations will come to grief, but a servant of Yahweh will arise, leading the faithful to salvation in a recast Jerusalem[/li][li]Current events - Hezekiah's escape from crushing by Sennacherib[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia acts as an instrument of Yahweh, ending the exile, and the once-supreme Babylon is crushed[/li][li]The servant will show the way to salvation under the judgement of Yahweh[/li]
- [li]Notably vitriolic oracles and biography of the life of Jeremiah, a priest from Anathoth, who lived in Jerusalem at the time of its fall (587 BC)[/li][li]Jeremiah warns everyone that Babylon is coming to crush Judah, because of their drifting to other religious practices; this goes down very badly in general, and other prophets with different messages are more favoured[/li][li]The events up to, during, and a little after the fall of Jerusalem are described, as is the duration of the exile, and the end of it[/li]
- [li]Poetic outpourings of grief at the fall of Jerusalem[/li]
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ttf_MoominDave
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Baruch 1 text
Highlights
- Baruch appears in Babylon
Summary
- Baruch, Jeremiah's scribe, it is told to us, is the author; writing in Babylon in the 5th year of the captivity
- Baruch read these words to Jeconiah/Jehoiachin and many other Jewish exiles
- The group collected money, and sent Baruch with it back to Judah with Jerusalem temple goods looted by the Babylonians
- They enclosed a letter, asking for the money to be used to make offerings praying the well-being of Nebuchadnezzar and his son Belshazzar
- Also asking for prayers for themselves, afflicted by their god
Questions and Observations
1) Captivity 5th year = 583 BC.
2) Our final deuterocanonical book, this; it only has 6 chapters. The Orthodox church splits chapter 6 off into a separate single-chapter book entitled "Letter of Jeremiah". After this the only subsequent deuterocanonical sections are short additions in the Book of Daniel. Though I may suggest at some point that we go back and cover the elements of the standard Orthodox canon that we've omitted - 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees. Would you be up for that at some point, Martin? Possibly when we've finished the New Testament?
3) Geography - Baruch went with Jeremiah to Egypt, in company with Johanan, after the assassination of Gedaliah. This is the opposite direction to Babylon from Jerusalem. What's he doing in Babylon here? The third deportation was at a similar time to the suggested date - perhaps relevant?
4) Jeconiah is described as the "king of Judah". This suggests that the author did not hold that Zedekiah's reign was legitimate.
5) Praying for the well-being of the Babylonians doesn't quite sit right with what we've read so far
Highlights
- Baruch appears in Babylon
Summary
- Baruch, Jeremiah's scribe, it is told to us, is the author; writing in Babylon in the 5th year of the captivity
- Baruch read these words to Jeconiah/Jehoiachin and many other Jewish exiles
- The group collected money, and sent Baruch with it back to Judah with Jerusalem temple goods looted by the Babylonians
- They enclosed a letter, asking for the money to be used to make offerings praying the well-being of Nebuchadnezzar and his son Belshazzar
- Also asking for prayers for themselves, afflicted by their god
Questions and Observations
1) Captivity 5th year = 583 BC.
2) Our final deuterocanonical book, this; it only has 6 chapters. The Orthodox church splits chapter 6 off into a separate single-chapter book entitled "Letter of Jeremiah". After this the only subsequent deuterocanonical sections are short additions in the Book of Daniel. Though I may suggest at some point that we go back and cover the elements of the standard Orthodox canon that we've omitted - 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees. Would you be up for that at some point, Martin? Possibly when we've finished the New Testament?
3) Geography - Baruch went with Jeremiah to Egypt, in company with Johanan, after the assassination of Gedaliah. This is the opposite direction to Babylon from Jerusalem. What's he doing in Babylon here? The third deportation was at a similar time to the suggested date - perhaps relevant?
4) Jeconiah is described as the "king of Judah". This suggests that the author did not hold that Zedekiah's reign was legitimate.
5) Praying for the well-being of the Babylonians doesn't quite sit right with what we've read so far
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ttf_drizabone
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Lamentations Summary
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 09, 2017, 05:19AMBaruch 1 text
...
Though I may suggest at some point that we go back and cover the elements of the standard Orthodox canon that we've omitted - 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees. Would you be up for that at some point, Martin? Possibly when we've finished the New Testament?
sure
Quote3) Geography - Baruch went with Jeremiah to Egypt, in company with Johanan, after the assassination of Gedaliah. This is the opposite direction to Babylon from Jerusalem. What's he doing in Babylon here? The third deportation was at a similar time to the suggested date - perhaps relevant?
Jeremiah 37 tells of a letter that Jeremiah sent to the exiles in Babylon that seems to cover similar topics. Maybe Baruch delivered the letter then and returned to Jerusalem in time for the trip to Egypt. This book could be based on that letter
This is just me speculating out loud
Quote5) Praying for the well-being of the Babylonians doesn't quite sit right with what we've read so far
Well actually, in Jeremiah's letter to the exiles (Jer. 37:7) he told them to seek the welfare of the towns they lived in and to pray for the Babylonians for in its welfare they would find their welfare.
the prayers were specifically for King Nebuchadnezzar his son Belshazzar and they mention that they wanted them to protect the exiles, so that's probably what the prayers were for.
But maybe it was just a formality like saying "God save the Queen".
...
Though I may suggest at some point that we go back and cover the elements of the standard Orthodox canon that we've omitted - 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees. Would you be up for that at some point, Martin? Possibly when we've finished the New Testament?
sure
Quote3) Geography - Baruch went with Jeremiah to Egypt, in company with Johanan, after the assassination of Gedaliah. This is the opposite direction to Babylon from Jerusalem. What's he doing in Babylon here? The third deportation was at a similar time to the suggested date - perhaps relevant?
Jeremiah 37 tells of a letter that Jeremiah sent to the exiles in Babylon that seems to cover similar topics. Maybe Baruch delivered the letter then and returned to Jerusalem in time for the trip to Egypt. This book could be based on that letter
This is just me speculating out loud
Quote5) Praying for the well-being of the Babylonians doesn't quite sit right with what we've read so far
Well actually, in Jeremiah's letter to the exiles (Jer. 37:7) he told them to seek the welfare of the towns they lived in and to pray for the Babylonians for in its welfare they would find their welfare.
the prayers were specifically for King Nebuchadnezzar his son Belshazzar and they mention that they wanted them to protect the exiles, so that's probably what the prayers were for.
But maybe it was just a formality like saying "God save the Queen".
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ttf_MoominDave
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Baruch 2 text
Highlights
- Hopes for Judah expressed to Yahweh
Summary
- The extremity of Jerusalem's suffering after toppling is touched on - residents resorted to cannibalism
- The Jews are shamed before Yahweh
- A prayer is made to alleviate this situation
- Yahweh is reminded of the covenant, specifically the clause about getting back behind them if they recant
Questions and Observations
1) With our wider knowledge we see that "Under the whole heaven there has not been done the like of what he has done in Jerusalem" (v2) is a substantial overstatement. The destruction of human places by other humans so utterly that people have to eat other people to survive has happened over and over throughout history and prehistory, sadly, and this wasn't new in Baruch's day. But it is rare enough that the most unlucky of humans witness it more than once. We may take that conditions were truly horrific, without needing to make a competition of it.
Highlights
- Hopes for Judah expressed to Yahweh
Summary
- The extremity of Jerusalem's suffering after toppling is touched on - residents resorted to cannibalism
- The Jews are shamed before Yahweh
- A prayer is made to alleviate this situation
- Yahweh is reminded of the covenant, specifically the clause about getting back behind them if they recant
Questions and Observations
1) With our wider knowledge we see that "Under the whole heaven there has not been done the like of what he has done in Jerusalem" (v2) is a substantial overstatement. The destruction of human places by other humans so utterly that people have to eat other people to survive has happened over and over throughout history and prehistory, sadly, and this wasn't new in Baruch's day. But it is rare enough that the most unlucky of humans witness it more than once. We may take that conditions were truly horrific, without needing to make a competition of it.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Baruch 3 text
Highlights
- Wisdom is the way out of this
Summary
- Conclusion of the prayer to Yahweh
- Israel has not been wise - hence its current fix
- Israel should seek Wisdom, in order to salve itself
- The Wisdom has already been given to Israel; it just needs to implement it
Questions and Observations
1) Handily, there are a number of books describing the intended take on Wisdom attached.
Highlights
- Wisdom is the way out of this
Summary
- Conclusion of the prayer to Yahweh
- Israel has not been wise - hence its current fix
- Israel should seek Wisdom, in order to salve itself
- The Wisdom has already been given to Israel; it just needs to implement it
Questions and Observations
1) Handily, there are a number of books describing the intended take on Wisdom attached.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 12, 2017, 07:18AMBaruch 3 text
...
1) Handily, there are a number of books describing the intended take on Wisdom attached.
...
1) Handily, there are a number of books describing the intended take on Wisdom attached.
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ttf_drizabone
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Baruch 4 text
Highlights
- Comfort to the People
Summary
- Baruch tells Israel that wisdom is found in the commandments of the Lord, and that they should follow them and be happy and plese the Lord
- They should take courage in their predicament because it is their own fault
- and they should cry out to God and he will remember them and deliver them and bring them everlasting joy and salvation
- and he will comfort them and punish the wicked nations that mistreated them
- they should look to the east and see the joy that is coming to them
Questions and Observations
1) this continues on from the prvious chapter.
2) Were these misplaced chapter breaks deliberate? They are too common to be accidents.
3) I wonder why Jerusalem should look to the east? Maybe its a reference to the original exodus from Egypt where they entered the "Promised Land" from the east. (Technically this would be an eisodus (entry) rather than an exodus (exit) but John is the only one who would worry about that)
Highlights
- Comfort to the People
Summary
- Baruch tells Israel that wisdom is found in the commandments of the Lord, and that they should follow them and be happy and plese the Lord
- They should take courage in their predicament because it is their own fault
- and they should cry out to God and he will remember them and deliver them and bring them everlasting joy and salvation
- and he will comfort them and punish the wicked nations that mistreated them
- they should look to the east and see the joy that is coming to them
Questions and Observations
1) this continues on from the prvious chapter.
2) Were these misplaced chapter breaks deliberate? They are too common to be accidents.
3) I wonder why Jerusalem should look to the east? Maybe its a reference to the original exodus from Egypt where they entered the "Promised Land" from the east. (Technically this would be an eisodus (entry) rather than an exodus (exit) but John is the only one who would worry about that)
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ttf_drizabone
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Baruch 5 text
Highlights
- Rejoice! Be glad
Summary
- Rejoice and don't be sad: for your present sufferings will be fleeting and God is going to glorify you
- Jerusalem: look to the east to see your children return in glory and with joy
Questions and Observations
1) Baruch is an encouraging sort of person, unlike his boss.
Highlights
- Rejoice! Be glad
Summary
- Rejoice and don't be sad: for your present sufferings will be fleeting and God is going to glorify you
- Jerusalem: look to the east to see your children return in glory and with joy
Questions and Observations
1) Baruch is an encouraging sort of person, unlike his boss.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Jun 12, 2017, 10:49PMBaruch 4 text
1) this continues on from the prvious chapter.
2) Were these misplaced chapter breaks deliberate? They are too common to be accidents.
It is funny - they seem more common in the deuterocanonical books, I think? But then when the chapter breaks were compiled (12th/13th century AD), there was not yet any protestant church, so the distinction didn't exist. So that can't be it.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 12, 2017, 10:49PM3) I wonder why Jerusalem should look to the east? Maybe its a reference to the original exodus from Egypt where they entered the "Promised Land" from the east. (Technically this would be an eisodus (entry) rather than an exodus (exit) but John is the only one who would worry about that)
I think this one's simple - it's the returning exiles from Babylon. Which tells us that this passage was either written after the exile was over, or written as an acknowledgement of a widespread hope of a return. Either seems possible to me.
1) this continues on from the prvious chapter.
2) Were these misplaced chapter breaks deliberate? They are too common to be accidents.
It is funny - they seem more common in the deuterocanonical books, I think? But then when the chapter breaks were compiled (12th/13th century AD), there was not yet any protestant church, so the distinction didn't exist. So that can't be it.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 12, 2017, 10:49PM3) I wonder why Jerusalem should look to the east? Maybe its a reference to the original exodus from Egypt where they entered the "Promised Land" from the east. (Technically this would be an eisodus (entry) rather than an exodus (exit) but John is the only one who would worry about that)
I think this one's simple - it's the returning exiles from Babylon. Which tells us that this passage was either written after the exile was over, or written as an acknowledgement of a widespread hope of a return. Either seems possible to me.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Baruch 6 text
Highlights
- Letter of Jeremiah
Summary
- This chapter purports to be a letter sent to the Babylon exiles by Jeremiah. Letter contents:
- Sins => exile, up to 7 generations
- Stay aloof from Babylonian worship practives
- Invective against idols and idol-worship
- Demeaning descriptions of these things
- Idols are not as impressive as an imperceptible deity
- Leave them alone; disdain them
Questions and Observations
1) The Orthodox church holds this chapter as a separate book, entitled "Letter of Jeremiah".
2) Presumably the narrative idea is that Baruch delivered the letter?
3) The Wiki article balances considerations on dating, suggesting something around the 300s BC.
4) Not for the first time, we are treated to a scathing assessment on the silliness of using idols in your worship. I wonder if idol-worshippers were also writing scathing condemnations on the silliness of worshipping something that can't be perceived?
5) This largely concludes our trip through the Catholically canonic parts of the protestant deuterocanon (barring small extra portions of Daniel). Have we seen any consistent themes in the books examined? To recap, these have been: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch. It's quite an eclectic collection of books, covering respectively obvious fairy tales, war fiction, war fact, war facts for children, religious admonishments, general precepts for life, and a cheery brief version of Jeremiah. I don't think I see any unifying themes between them - but then, would one expect to in a group of books defined by an exclusion rather than an inclusion?
Highlights
- Letter of Jeremiah
Summary
- This chapter purports to be a letter sent to the Babylon exiles by Jeremiah. Letter contents:
- Sins => exile, up to 7 generations
- Stay aloof from Babylonian worship practives
- Invective against idols and idol-worship
- Demeaning descriptions of these things
- Idols are not as impressive as an imperceptible deity
- Leave them alone; disdain them
Questions and Observations
1) The Orthodox church holds this chapter as a separate book, entitled "Letter of Jeremiah".
2) Presumably the narrative idea is that Baruch delivered the letter?
3) The Wiki article balances considerations on dating, suggesting something around the 300s BC.
4) Not for the first time, we are treated to a scathing assessment on the silliness of using idols in your worship. I wonder if idol-worshippers were also writing scathing condemnations on the silliness of worshipping something that can't be perceived?
5) This largely concludes our trip through the Catholically canonic parts of the protestant deuterocanon (barring small extra portions of Daniel). Have we seen any consistent themes in the books examined? To recap, these have been: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch. It's quite an eclectic collection of books, covering respectively obvious fairy tales, war fiction, war fact, war facts for children, religious admonishments, general precepts for life, and a cheery brief version of Jeremiah. I don't think I see any unifying themes between them - but then, would one expect to in a group of books defined by an exclusion rather than an inclusion?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Key
Books
Bible section divisions
People
Books in the protestant deuterocanon, but in the Catholic and Orthodox canon
Books in the protestant and Catholic deuterocanons, but in the Orthodox canon
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis
Deuteronomy
1 Chronicles
Job
Isaiah
Books
Bible section divisions
People
Books in the protestant deuterocanon, but in the Catholic and Orthodox canon
Books in the protestant and Catholic deuterocanons, but in the Orthodox canon
Quote from: MoominDave on Apr 06, 2016, 02:58PMPart I - The Tetrateuch
Genesis
- [li]Big picture stuff
- [li]Creation; Adam & Eve[/li][li]Humans, take 1; Cain & Abel, Noah[/li][li]The Flood; Wash everything away, start again[/li][li]Humans, take 2[/li]
- [li]New scene, three generations on - Israelites now of low status in Egypt[/li][li]Moses grows up, fights battle of wills with Pharoah over plagues, leads Israelites to depart[/li][li]Wandering, take 1; through the desert to Mt. Sinai, where they make a long camp and...[/li]
- [li]...many laws are given[/li]
- [li]Wandering, take 2; they reach their destination, but are too weak to attempt the task, and so...[/li][li]Wandering, take 3; more pootling around, building up military prowess over the years in the preparation for invasion; new leaders emerge, and they finish on the brink of their destination again[/li]
Deuteronomy
- [li]Moses orates; recap of terms and conditions, forward planning[/li][li]Moses dies[/li]
- [li]Conquest of Canaan under Joshua[/li][li]Division of conquered land between the tribes, East and West banks of the Jordan[/li]
- [li]Prologue: Messy details of attempted not-always-successful conquest, compare with previous book[/li][li]An intermittent sequence of Judges leads: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson[/li][li]The Dan tribe take territory in the North and the Benjamin tribe are defeated by the other tribes[/li]
- [li]Intermezzo: Heartwarming tale of a family coming through hard times in the era of the Judges[/li]
- [li]Samuel is a priestly leader in a time of Philistine conflicts who needs a worthy successor[/li][li]Saul is appointed to the new role of king and with his son Jonathan defeats the Ammonites, Philistines, Amalekites, but he falls out with Samuel, who anoints David as a replacement king secretly[/li][li]David (a military hero) and Saul vie for superiority over a long period, eventually brought to an end when the Philistines kill Saul in battle[/li]
- [li]The kingdom nearly splits, but David unites it, doing many heroic deeds[/li][li]But in time he becomes morally suspect and manipulated by schemers[/li]
- [li]David dies, succeeded by Solomon, who consolidates his power base brutally but gains great wealth and a reputation for great wisdom, building the "first temple" and a palace; however, like David he becomes morally suspect in time[/li][li]After he dies, the kingdom is split into Israel (larger Northern portion) and Judah (smaller Southern portion), and the continual inference is that Judah is the legitimate one of the two[/li][li]Kings succeed in both Israel and Judah; Elijah gains prominence as a prophet[/li]
- [li]Long successions of kings of both Israel and Judah are described, and the prophet Elisha comes to prominence[/li][li]Most kings do not prioritise Yahweh-worship - none in Israel, but some in Judah.
[/li][li]First Israel then Judah are unable to tread the difficult path of negotiation between stronger powers on either side, with both populations destroyed and exiled by 586 BC[/li]
1 Chronicles
- [li]Recap of genealogy to the beginning; return of some exiles to Judah[/li][li]Recap of Samuel written to favour David more highly[/li]
- [li]Recap of Kings with only the Judah parts and a focus on relations with Yahweh[/li][li]End of exile when Babylon falls[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia commands Judah to return home and rebuild their temple; decades later Artaxerxes of Persia commands Ezra to lead a second wave of returnees[/li]
- [li]Nehemiah, a Judahite official of Artaxerxes of Persia, is appointed governor of Judah, rebuilding Jerusalem's wall; he and Ezra organise Judah, mixing enlightened social reform with brutally dogmatic interpretations of Mosaic law[/li]
- [li]Tobit and his son Tobias are exiled in Nineveh when Israel falls, while Sarah lives in Media; a demon has killed seven of her husbands. With an angel's help, Tobias rescues her, and everyone lives happily ever after[/li]
- [li]Nebuchadnezzar is enraged by the Israelites' failure to answer a military summons, and despatches his general Holofernes with his army to suppress them; Judith, a beautiful Israelite widow, uses feminine wiles to distract Holofernes, killing him[/li]
- [li]Jewish exile in Susa Esther wins a beauty contest to become queen of Persia; factions vie to destroy the Jews in Persia, but the influence of her and her uncle Mordecai carries the day[/li]
- [li]In the 160s BC the Greek rulers attempt a religious crackdown in Judaea, against which Judas Maccabeus leads a rebellion[/li][li]Various competing empires trade blows, and all the while the rebellion becomes more secure; Jonathan Apphus and then Simon Thassi succeed Judas and establish a medium-term peace, along with Simon's dynasty, the Hasmonaeans[/li]
- [li]Prior to the Maccabean revolt, unedifying political struggles within the priesthood result in turmoil, resulting in the crackdown of 1 Maccabees; Judas leads the first portion of his revolt, in less detail this time[/li]
Job
- [li]Job is a wealthy and good man, devoted to Yahweh[/li][li]Satan talks Yahweh into letting him test Job's faith, which he does by destroying his fortune, family, and health[/li][li]Job and his friends talk it over at length; Job is convinced of his innocence, his friends of his guilt[/li][li]Yahweh eventually turns up and ticks them all off for not respecting him enough; he restores Job's fortunes twice over[/li]
- [li]Large collection of devotional songs/poems, whose themes include
- [li]Overarching powerfulness of Yahweh[/li][li]Need to praise and thank Yahweh[/li][li]How bad it feels when Yahweh feels absent, and how good it feels when he feels present[/li]
- [li]An extra psalm[/li]
- [li]Large collection of wise sayings, many attributed to King Solomon. Major themes include:
- [li]Industriousness, Humility, Fair dealing, Marital faithfulness, Religious devotion, Political savvy[/li]
- [li]A harshly pragmatic sermon, attributed to Solomon, with the moral: All that one achieves will perish; the only true joy is to be taken in doing the tasks in front of you[/li]
- [li]A borderline erotic exaltation of the joys of love, possibly between Solomon and his bride, possibly between his bride and her lover[/li]
- [li]The point of wisdom is to achieve salvation through Yahweh; those that reject this are accursed[/li]
- [li]The collected wisdom of Joshua ben Sira (c.200 BC), a large and rambling miscellany of precepts; major themes include
- [li]Death, Friendship, Happiness, Shame, Money, Sin, Social Justice, Etiquette, Women, History[/li]
Isaiah
- [li]Oracles of Isaiah ben Amoz, who lived in Judah up to the time of King Hezekiah (c.700 BC)
- [li]Yahweh's judgement is coming - only the faithful will pass the test, and Isaiah is worried that Judah is not faithful enough[/li][li]Various other nations will come to grief, but a servant of Yahweh will arise, leading the faithful to salvation in a recast Jerusalem[/li][li]Current events - Hezekiah's escape from crushing by Sennacherib[/li]
- [li]Cyrus of Persia acts as an instrument of Yahweh, ending the exile, and the once-supreme Babylon is crushed[/li][li]The servant will show the way to salvation under the judgement of Yahweh[/li]
- [li]Notably vitriolic oracles and biography of the life of Jeremiah, a priest who lived in Jerusalem at the time of its fall (587 BC)[/li][li]Jeremiah warns everyone that Babylon is coming to crush Judah, because of their drifting to other religious practices; this goes down very badly in general, and other prophets with different messages are more favoured[/li][li]The events up to, during, and a little after the fall of Jerusalem are described, as is the duration of the exile, and the end of it[/li]
- [li]Poetic outpourings of grief at the fall of Jerusalem[/li]
- [li]Jeremiah's scribe Baruch appears in Babylon a few years into the exile, where he delivers a message of combined current woe at destruction and future hope in returning to Jerusalem[/li][li]Letter of Jeremiah - a polemic against idol-worship[/li]
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 14, 2017, 02:31AMBaruch 6 text
4) Not for the first time, we are treated to a scathing assessment on the silliness of using idols in your worship. I wonder if idol-worshippers were also writing scathing condemnations on the silliness of worshipping something that can't be perceived?
Archaeology shows the more well off houses (I'm not sure of which period) had displays of small statues that were well cared for.
My source was a lecture series we watched at church so I'm not sure how to cite that.
4) Not for the first time, we are treated to a scathing assessment on the silliness of using idols in your worship. I wonder if idol-worshippers were also writing scathing condemnations on the silliness of worshipping something that can't be perceived?
Archaeology shows the more well off houses (I'm not sure of which period) had displays of small statues that were well cared for.
My source was a lecture series we watched at church so I'm not sure how to cite that.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Ezekiel 1 text
Highlights
- Ezekiel's impressive vision of Yahweh
Summary
- Setting: Ezekiel is a priest, in Babylon, in the 5th year of Jehoiachin's exile
- Ezekiel's vision: He saw coming from the north a great wind driving a stormy flashing cloud, in which he saw four like creatures, each with four faces, wings and sundry other physical curiosities
- Each creature corresponds to a wheel-within-a-wheel that is on the ground by them, and can travel in any direction without turning; the wheels rise above the ground when the creatures do
- Above the creatures is a shining crystal-like expanse
- Above this expanse is a throne, on which sits a human-shaped creature; it appears to be made of metal, and to be encased in fire
- Ezekiel recognises his deity, and abases himself
Questions and Observations
1) The time-setting paragraph requires a little teasing out. King Jehoiachin was exiled to Babylon in 597 BC (in March). The 5th year of his exile, 5th month, would have been 593 BC. But then we must ask ourselves what v1 means - what are we in the 30th year since that is being dated from? The 30th year before that would have been 622 BC, a date which doesn't match well any of the usual dating events of this period. I suspect that, and I see that Wikipedia takes the same line, the passage means that Ezekiel was 30 years of age at this time.
2) Ezekiel is the son of Buzi - there is a suggestion in Jewish tradition that Buzi was a name for Jeremiah.
3) Ezekiel has been smoking some strong stuff here. This is a pretty trippy vision. Compellingly bizarre.
4) Ezekiel's artistic vision has, I realise, rather set the standard for how later artists have envisioned such a situation. It's superbly dramatic, lending itself to such things very nicely, and representations of it abound online.
5) Flipping through these, I find one that comes out with something looking like a classic sci-fi alien spaceship!
6) The "Chebar canal" is thought to be an irrigation ditch near modern-day Nippur, which is some miles SE of Babylon, which is at modern-day Hillah, in Iraq, on the Euphrates.
Highlights
- Ezekiel's impressive vision of Yahweh
Summary
- Setting: Ezekiel is a priest, in Babylon, in the 5th year of Jehoiachin's exile
- Ezekiel's vision: He saw coming from the north a great wind driving a stormy flashing cloud, in which he saw four like creatures, each with four faces, wings and sundry other physical curiosities
- Each creature corresponds to a wheel-within-a-wheel that is on the ground by them, and can travel in any direction without turning; the wheels rise above the ground when the creatures do
- Above the creatures is a shining crystal-like expanse
- Above this expanse is a throne, on which sits a human-shaped creature; it appears to be made of metal, and to be encased in fire
- Ezekiel recognises his deity, and abases himself
Questions and Observations
1) The time-setting paragraph requires a little teasing out. King Jehoiachin was exiled to Babylon in 597 BC (in March). The 5th year of his exile, 5th month, would have been 593 BC. But then we must ask ourselves what v1 means - what are we in the 30th year since that is being dated from? The 30th year before that would have been 622 BC, a date which doesn't match well any of the usual dating events of this period. I suspect that, and I see that Wikipedia takes the same line, the passage means that Ezekiel was 30 years of age at this time.
2) Ezekiel is the son of Buzi - there is a suggestion in Jewish tradition that Buzi was a name for Jeremiah.
3) Ezekiel has been smoking some strong stuff here. This is a pretty trippy vision. Compellingly bizarre.
4) Ezekiel's artistic vision has, I realise, rather set the standard for how later artists have envisioned such a situation. It's superbly dramatic, lending itself to such things very nicely, and representations of it abound online.
5) Flipping through these, I find one that comes out with something looking like a classic sci-fi alien spaceship!
6) The "Chebar canal" is thought to be an irrigation ditch near modern-day Nippur, which is some miles SE of Babylon, which is at modern-day Hillah, in Iraq, on the Euphrates.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 14, 2017, 05:07AMArchaeology shows the more well off houses (I'm not sure of which period) had displays of small statues that were well cared for.
My source was a lecture series we watched at church so I'm not sure how to cite that.
Ah, they're called household gods. They're key to a couple of bible stories.
Found this interesting site while looking for them:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html
My source was a lecture series we watched at church so I'm not sure how to cite that.
Ah, they're called household gods. They're key to a couple of bible stories.
Found this interesting site while looking for them:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 14, 2017, 06:14AMEzekiel 1 text
...
- Ezekiel's vision: He saw coming from the north a great wind driving a stormy flashing cloud, in which he saw four like creatures, each with four faces, wings and sundry other physical curiosities
- Each creature corresponds to a wheel-within-a-wheel that is on the ground by them, and can travel in any direction without turning; the wheels rise above the ground when the creatures do
- Above the creatures is a shining crystal-like expanse
- Above this expanse is a throne, on which sits a human-shaped creature; it appears to be made of metal, and to be encased in fire
- Ezekiel recognises his deity, and abases himself
Questions and Observations
...
3) Ezekiel has been smoking some strong stuff here. This is a pretty trippy vision. Compellingly bizarre.
welcome to the apocalyptic genre of bible writing
Quote4) Ezekiel's artistic vision has, I realise, rather set the standard for how later artists have envisioned such a situation. It's superbly dramatic, lending itself to such things very nicely, and representations of it abound online.
5) Flipping through these, I find one that comes out with something looking like a classic sci-fi alien spaceship!
Have you heard of Erich von Daniken and his book 'Chariots of the Gods'?
...
- Ezekiel's vision: He saw coming from the north a great wind driving a stormy flashing cloud, in which he saw four like creatures, each with four faces, wings and sundry other physical curiosities
- Each creature corresponds to a wheel-within-a-wheel that is on the ground by them, and can travel in any direction without turning; the wheels rise above the ground when the creatures do
- Above the creatures is a shining crystal-like expanse
- Above this expanse is a throne, on which sits a human-shaped creature; it appears to be made of metal, and to be encased in fire
- Ezekiel recognises his deity, and abases himself
Questions and Observations
...
3) Ezekiel has been smoking some strong stuff here. This is a pretty trippy vision. Compellingly bizarre.
welcome to the apocalyptic genre of bible writing
Quote4) Ezekiel's artistic vision has, I realise, rather set the standard for how later artists have envisioned such a situation. It's superbly dramatic, lending itself to such things very nicely, and representations of it abound online.
5) Flipping through these, I find one that comes out with something looking like a classic sci-fi alien spaceship!
Have you heard of Erich von Daniken and his book 'Chariots of the Gods'?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 14, 2017, 02:42AM
Baruch Catholic/Orthodox
Baruch Catholic/Orthodox
- [li]Jeremiah's scribe Baruch appears in Babylon a few years into the exile, where he delivers a message of combined current woe at destruction and future hope in returning to Jerusalem[/li][li]Letter of Jeremiah - a polemic against idol-worship[/li]
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ttf_drizabone
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Its interesting comparing the initial visions/commissioning of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
Isaiah saw a was taken into God's throne room. God's robe filled the temple and there was smoke and seraphim and a general feeling of holiness Is 6.
Jeremiah just recorded the words in a fairly conversational discussion he had with God. Jer 1
Ezekiel had visions that made it look like he was on psychedelic drugs. Ez 1.
I'm not sure if this is significant but its interesting.
Isaiah saw a was taken into God's throne room. God's robe filled the temple and there was smoke and seraphim and a general feeling of holiness Is 6.
Jeremiah just recorded the words in a fairly conversational discussion he had with God. Jer 1
Ezekiel had visions that made it look like he was on psychedelic drugs. Ez 1.
I'm not sure if this is significant but its interesting.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 14, 2017, 06:34AMAh, they're called household gods. They're key to a couple of bible stories.
Found this interesting site while looking for them:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html
Yes, that is interesting. Thanks Tim.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 14, 2017, 02:37PMHave you heard of Erich von Daniken and his book 'Chariots of the Gods'?
Heard of, but not read. The idea that ancient astronauts caused this and other such things strikes me as knockabout fun, but a) not at all likely, and b) not really testable, barring finding the archaeological remains of a Bronze Age spaceship... Kind of like the religion itself...
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 14, 2017, 04:25PMDid you think that Baruch including Jeremiah's Letter was written with a completely different style to the book of Jeremiah. It doesn't seem to have been written by the same person (Jeremiah or his scribe). IMO. But maybe its just the difference in the translations.
Yes, I did. and the Letter a different style again. This seems to be the consensus view outside of our little circle here too.
Found this interesting site while looking for them:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html
Yes, that is interesting. Thanks Tim.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 14, 2017, 02:37PMHave you heard of Erich von Daniken and his book 'Chariots of the Gods'?
Heard of, but not read. The idea that ancient astronauts caused this and other such things strikes me as knockabout fun, but a) not at all likely, and b) not really testable, barring finding the archaeological remains of a Bronze Age spaceship... Kind of like the religion itself...
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 14, 2017, 04:25PMDid you think that Baruch including Jeremiah's Letter was written with a completely different style to the book of Jeremiah. It doesn't seem to have been written by the same person (Jeremiah or his scribe). IMO. But maybe its just the difference in the translations.
Yes, I did. and the Letter a different style again. This seems to be the consensus view outside of our little circle here too.
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 2 text
Ezekiel 3 text
Highlights
- Ezekiel's commission
Summary
Chapter 2
- God tells Ezekiel that he is being sent to tell the words of The Lord to the rebellious house of Israel.
- They are likely not to listen to him and he is not to be afraid of them.
Chapter 3
- God shows him a scroll and tells him to eat it - it tasted as sweet as honey.
- God tells him to go to the people of Israel and tell them his words.
- They won't listen to him but God has made him as stubborn as they are.
- then Ezekiel heard the voice of a great earthquake praising God
- Ezekiel was taken to the exiles at Tel-abib but he was totally wasted for 7 days.
- God then tells him that he is to tell the people the warnings God gives him straight away, otherwise he will be held responsible because he didn't pass on the warnings
- God told Ezekiel that he was going to imprison him for a while so that he wouldn't be able to reprove the people
Questions and Observations
1) The prophets have similar roles as the NT apostles, especially the 12.
2) Ezekiel was going to be ignored just like Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Ezekiel 3 text
Highlights
- Ezekiel's commission
Summary
Chapter 2
- God tells Ezekiel that he is being sent to tell the words of The Lord to the rebellious house of Israel.
- They are likely not to listen to him and he is not to be afraid of them.
Chapter 3
- God shows him a scroll and tells him to eat it - it tasted as sweet as honey.
- God tells him to go to the people of Israel and tell them his words.
- They won't listen to him but God has made him as stubborn as they are.
- then Ezekiel heard the voice of a great earthquake praising God
- Ezekiel was taken to the exiles at Tel-abib but he was totally wasted for 7 days.
- God then tells him that he is to tell the people the warnings God gives him straight away, otherwise he will be held responsible because he didn't pass on the warnings
- God told Ezekiel that he was going to imprison him for a while so that he wouldn't be able to reprove the people
Questions and Observations
1) The prophets have similar roles as the NT apostles, especially the 12.
2) Ezekiel was going to be ignored just like Isaiah and Jeremiah.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Jun 15, 2017, 04:13PM2) Ezekiel was going to be ignored just like Isaiah and Jeremiah.
#spoilers
#spoilers
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ttf_MoominDave
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Ezekiel 4 text
Highlights
- Ezekiel, performance artist
Summary
- Ezekiel is instructed to create a diorama of the siege of Jerusalem
- He is instructed to lie on his left side by the diorama for 390 days, symbolising 390 years of punishment for Israel
- Then to do the same on his right side for 40 days, for 40 years similar for Judah
- He specifies a daily ration of bread and water; the bread is to be made by baking it on human poo, symbolising Israelites having to break their dietary commandments
- Ezekiel: "Eww". Yahweh: "Okay, then you can use cow poo instead".
Questions and Observations
1) It is a shame that the Turner Prize wasn't in existence in this time and place. Ezekiel's display would have contended for it strongly.
2) Ezekiel's punishment numbers: 40 years for Judah; presumably the punishment was already occurring - to be dated from the first deportation rather than the second - so this would expect an end of it in 557 BC. But it lasted another couple of decades after that. 390 years for Israel takes us to 332 BC. We aren't anywhere told of anything relevant happening at this date. Either way, Ezekiel's spending a very long time lying on his sides - it isn't good for your body to do this kind of thing.
Highlights
- Ezekiel, performance artist
Summary
- Ezekiel is instructed to create a diorama of the siege of Jerusalem
- He is instructed to lie on his left side by the diorama for 390 days, symbolising 390 years of punishment for Israel
- Then to do the same on his right side for 40 days, for 40 years similar for Judah
- He specifies a daily ration of bread and water; the bread is to be made by baking it on human poo, symbolising Israelites having to break their dietary commandments
- Ezekiel: "Eww". Yahweh: "Okay, then you can use cow poo instead".
Questions and Observations
1) It is a shame that the Turner Prize wasn't in existence in this time and place. Ezekiel's display would have contended for it strongly.
2) Ezekiel's punishment numbers: 40 years for Judah; presumably the punishment was already occurring - to be dated from the first deportation rather than the second - so this would expect an end of it in 557 BC. But it lasted another couple of decades after that. 390 years for Israel takes us to 332 BC. We aren't anywhere told of anything relevant happening at this date. Either way, Ezekiel's spending a very long time lying on his sides - it isn't good for your body to do this kind of thing.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Ezekiel 5 text
Highlights
- Further performance art details
Summary
- Ezekiel shaves off his hair; more symbolism ahoy.
- A third of his hair he burns - a third of Jerusalem dies of famine and disease
- A third he strikes around the city with his sword - a third of Jerusalem will fall the same way
- A third he scatters to the winds - the final third of Jerusalem will be exiled and in danger
- This is for the usual reason - Yahweh-disobedience - and is Yahweh-caused, in judgement and anger
Questions and Observations
1) Ezekiel is ostensibly writing between the first and second deportations. Although both deportations were accompanied by a Babylonian army besieging and then capturing Jerusalem, I'm not sure that there was a siege at the moment at which we are given to understand that this was written. Perhaps it refers to earlier events; perhaps it's been modified; perhaps the date given to us for writing is not reliable; perhaps it was compiled over a number of years; perhaps Ezekiel wasn't up to date with current events in Jerusalem; perhaps he can see the way things are inexorably going. So many possibilities.
Highlights
- Further performance art details
Summary
- Ezekiel shaves off his hair; more symbolism ahoy.
- A third of his hair he burns - a third of Jerusalem dies of famine and disease
- A third he strikes around the city with his sword - a third of Jerusalem will fall the same way
- A third he scatters to the winds - the final third of Jerusalem will be exiled and in danger
- This is for the usual reason - Yahweh-disobedience - and is Yahweh-caused, in judgement and anger
Questions and Observations
1) Ezekiel is ostensibly writing between the first and second deportations. Although both deportations were accompanied by a Babylonian army besieging and then capturing Jerusalem, I'm not sure that there was a siege at the moment at which we are given to understand that this was written. Perhaps it refers to earlier events; perhaps it's been modified; perhaps the date given to us for writing is not reliable; perhaps it was compiled over a number of years; perhaps Ezekiel wasn't up to date with current events in Jerusalem; perhaps he can see the way things are inexorably going. So many possibilities.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 17, 2017, 11:02PMEzekiel 5 text
Highlights
- Further performance art details
chapter 3 mentions that God was going to make Ezekiel mute for a time. Maybe this is why he does all these enacted messages. And that would have made his spoken messages stand out.
Or maybe he just wanted to be a pre-scool teacher.
Quote...Perhaps it refers to earlier events; perhaps it's been modified; perhaps the date given to us for writing is not reliable; perhaps it was compiled over a number of years; perhaps Ezekiel wasn't up to date with current events in Jerusalem; perhaps he can see the way things are inexorably going. So many possibilities.
or perhaps he was foretelling it?
Highlights
- Further performance art details
chapter 3 mentions that God was going to make Ezekiel mute for a time. Maybe this is why he does all these enacted messages. And that would have made his spoken messages stand out.
Or maybe he just wanted to be a pre-scool teacher.
Quote...Perhaps it refers to earlier events; perhaps it's been modified; perhaps the date given to us for writing is not reliable; perhaps it was compiled over a number of years; perhaps Ezekiel wasn't up to date with current events in Jerusalem; perhaps he can see the way things are inexorably going. So many possibilities.
or perhaps he was foretelling it?
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ttf_drizabone
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Ezekiel 6 text
Highlights
- Don't betray God, or else.
Summary
- God tells Ezekiel to prophesy against the mountains of Israel.
- God will destroy all the high places in the mountains, littering the altars of other deities with the corpses and scattered bones of the people who worshipped them.
- The people who are spared will remember how hurt and angry God was about their betrayal. They'll feel ashamed.
- Famine, pestilence, and warfare will wipe out a huge number of people.
- God will demonstrate that he is The Lord by making sure that the Judeans who worshipped foreign gods will have their rotting corpses lying in front of the idols they once worshipped on the high places.
- God will destroy all the settlements from the wilderness to Riblah, further letting everyone know that he is The Lord
Questions and Observations
1) Would this have counted as valid data for a possible God hypothesis?
Highlights
- Don't betray God, or else.
Summary
- God tells Ezekiel to prophesy against the mountains of Israel.
- God will destroy all the high places in the mountains, littering the altars of other deities with the corpses and scattered bones of the people who worshipped them.
- The people who are spared will remember how hurt and angry God was about their betrayal. They'll feel ashamed.
- Famine, pestilence, and warfare will wipe out a huge number of people.
- God will demonstrate that he is The Lord by making sure that the Judeans who worshipped foreign gods will have their rotting corpses lying in front of the idols they once worshipped on the high places.
- God will destroy all the settlements from the wilderness to Riblah, further letting everyone know that he is The Lord
Questions and Observations
1) Would this have counted as valid data for a possible God hypothesis?
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 12:08AMor perhaps he was foretelling it?
Ha, good one!
But seriously, I don't understand why, when any of the mundane mechanisms suggested above would explain something like this without resorting to the exotic, anyone would skip straight over them and jump to the exotic as a likely explanation.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 12:46AM Ezekiel 6 text
Highlights
- Don't betray God, or else.
Summary
- God tells Ezekiel to prophesy against the mountains of Israel.
- God will destroy all the high places in the mountains, littering the altars of other deities with the corpses and scattered bones of the people who worshipped them.
- The people who are spared will remember how hurt and angry God was about their betrayal. They'll feel ashamed.
- Famine, pestilence, and warfare will wipe out a huge number of people.
- God will demonstrate that he is The Lord by making sure that the Judeans who worshipped foreign gods will have their rotting corpses lying in front of the idols they once worshipped on the high places.
- God will destroy all the settlements from the wilderness to Riblah, further letting everyone know that he is The Lord
Questions and Observations
1) Would this have counted as valid data for a possible God hypothesis?
Do you mean if people saw Yahweh slaying all these people? Sure. Did they in fact see this?
Ha, good one!
But seriously, I don't understand why, when any of the mundane mechanisms suggested above would explain something like this without resorting to the exotic, anyone would skip straight over them and jump to the exotic as a likely explanation.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 12:46AM Ezekiel 6 text
Highlights
- Don't betray God, or else.
Summary
- God tells Ezekiel to prophesy against the mountains of Israel.
- God will destroy all the high places in the mountains, littering the altars of other deities with the corpses and scattered bones of the people who worshipped them.
- The people who are spared will remember how hurt and angry God was about their betrayal. They'll feel ashamed.
- Famine, pestilence, and warfare will wipe out a huge number of people.
- God will demonstrate that he is The Lord by making sure that the Judeans who worshipped foreign gods will have their rotting corpses lying in front of the idols they once worshipped on the high places.
- God will destroy all the settlements from the wilderness to Riblah, further letting everyone know that he is The Lord
Questions and Observations
1) Would this have counted as valid data for a possible God hypothesis?
Do you mean if people saw Yahweh slaying all these people? Sure. Did they in fact see this?
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 19, 2017, 03:16AMDo you mean if people saw Yahweh slaying all these people? Sure. Did they in fact see this?
I was thinking:
1. Ezekiel in Babylon says that all the idol worshipers will be killed and scattered around their idols
2. This happens as predicted.
And I don't know even if the bible records it happening, I was just seeing what you might consider valid historical data.
I was thinking:
1. Ezekiel in Babylon says that all the idol worshipers will be killed and scattered around their idols
2. This happens as predicted.
And I don't know even if the bible records it happening, I was just seeing what you might consider valid historical data.
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ttf_MoominDave
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I'd want at the minimum to have it recorded by people who didn't have a vested interest in proclaiming that it happened - extra-biblical sources. If the Israelite records say something happened that suits their religious narrative, then we raise our eyebrows; "Hmm, isn't that convenient". If the Babylonians and Egyptians (say) also record that the same thing happened, then we trust the event much more. Corroboration is the key.
What we're reading here is basically propaganda - often considering why a given passage was written is more informative than understanding what it says.
What we're reading here is basically propaganda - often considering why a given passage was written is more informative than understanding what it says.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 19, 2017, 05:42AMI'd want at the minimum to have it recorded by people who didn't have a vested interest in proclaiming that it happened - extra-biblical sources. If the Israelite records say something happened that suits their religious narrative, then we raise our eyebrows; "Hmm, isn't that convenient". If the Babylonians and Egyptians (say) also record that the same thing happened, then we trust the event much more. Corroboration is the key.
I'll look out for examples
QuoteWhat we're reading here is basically propaganda - often considering why a given passage was written is more informative than understanding what it says.
- I would agree that it is information provided for a purpose and that it considering why it was written is informative.
- but calling it propaganda categorises it as having a biased or misleading nature - which I wouldn't automatically agree with
So we have some interesting questions about the text:
1. is this info accurate or not
2. what sort of bias or focus does it have (I would think that a report will only provide a filtered view of an event, but it can do this without being misleading. Do you concur? So bias is just a way of describing filtering the report in a misleading fashion.)
3. So if Ezekiel is filtering the info, is there any evidence to indicate whether or not this was misleading or not?
4. why would Ezekiel (or "the writer/s") be providing this info, can we get an idea of his intent?
I'll look out for examples
QuoteWhat we're reading here is basically propaganda - often considering why a given passage was written is more informative than understanding what it says.
- I would agree that it is information provided for a purpose and that it considering why it was written is informative.
- but calling it propaganda categorises it as having a biased or misleading nature - which I wouldn't automatically agree with
So we have some interesting questions about the text:
1. is this info accurate or not
2. what sort of bias or focus does it have (I would think that a report will only provide a filtered view of an event, but it can do this without being misleading. Do you concur? So bias is just a way of describing filtering the report in a misleading fashion.)
3. So if Ezekiel is filtering the info, is there any evidence to indicate whether or not this was misleading or not?
4. why would Ezekiel (or "the writer/s") be providing this info, can we get an idea of his intent?
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ttf_MoominDave
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I should note that my comments in the last couple of posts are generally applicable. Ezekiel (the little of his book we've read so far, at any rate) is no worse nor better in this regard than other books. We've certainly read other books in this adventure that have explicitly strained our credulity in their basic shape more than any of these prophet books, e.g. the fanciful Tobit, the quasi-historical novella Judith, or to return to the protocanon, the recasting of Babylonian deities into Jewish form via a legendary narrative, Esther. Exodus also seems to openly defy what is externally known, as does Joshua.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PMI'll look out for examples
I find it very satisfying when one can tie two sources together. When Kings tells us that Sennacherib went home and died after besieging Jerusalem, and then an Assyrian source tells us that he lived 20 years after the siege, we contrast the two to learn something about their reliabilities. Is there any reason why the Assyrian source would alter their version of the narrative? The most obvious distorting motive that might be present would be to glorify their work - but this isn't served by falsifying regnal dates. There seems no obvious reason to distrust the Assyrian chronology at this point in time (though note that their royal ancestor list, like that of the Israelites, spirals into obvious mythology in far history, with absurd lifespans and non-realistic events - and note, absurd lifespans that do not tie up with the absurd lifespans in the early Bible). And further - it's reasonable to assume that the Assyrian chronicler was more familiar with Assyrian affairs than the far-away writer of Kings, who was separated in both place and time from Sennacherib's later career. The implication of Kings that Sennacherib perished at Yahweh's judgement for challenging Judah immediately looks like wishful thinking.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM- I would agree that it is information provided for a purpose and that it considering why it was written is informative.
- but calling it propaganda categorises it as having a biased or misleading nature - which I wouldn't automatically agree with
So we have some interesting questions about the text:
1. is this info accurate or not
To be clear - are we talking about the apparent foretelling of Jerusalem's problems here? I'll assume so for now.
In one sense, it is accurate - in a general kind of way, it says that everything's going to fall to bits.
In another, it doesn't attempt to be accurate - there's (so far, anyhow) few explicit details. And those that have been given (lengths of captivity) are wrong.
It's all a bit "I'm getting a name... John... John... Does anyone in the room know a John...?", dressed up in theatrics. Which are entertaining in themselves - but trustworthy? Just a device to grab and hold peoples' attention, in my estimation.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM2. what sort of bias or focus does it have (I would think that a report will only provide a filtered view of an event, but it can do this without being misleading. Do you concur? So bias is just a way of describing filtering the report in a misleading fashion.)
This is a basic problem of human recording. All events are filtered through the perception of the recorder, no matter how objective they strive to be. But that doesn't mean that objectivity isn't worth the effort, despite the attempts of some to line up attempted objectivity and passionately embraced subjectivity as equivalent - we touched on this a few pages back with John pointing out that being scientific is not some kind of philosophical perfection as if that invalidated the worth of striving to get closer to reliability. I ran out of time to reply to that strand - but that observation was the core of my next reply that never got written.
So we have these texts that have been selected and refined by the adherents to explain Yahweh-worshipping. The original author(s) may have falsified various aspects in order to get their message across. The original author may well not be Ezekiel, but rather a priest(?) writing years later. Subsequent custodians of the text may well have rewritten, replaced, and modified sections - cf. Isaiah. At any of these stages someone may have been tempted to massage the words in order to place an apparent accurate foretelling in Ezekiel's mouth in order to make their religious tradition look more impressive.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM3. So if Ezekiel is filtering the info, is there any evidence to indicate whether or not this was misleading or not?
Other source books dealing with this context are not plentiful, sadly. Jeremiah and Baruch touch on the same context, but not the same material - and also attract the same suspicions of religious motive as Ezekiel does. Are there any corroborations coming in the minor prophets? The Quran has a figure called "Dhul-Kifl" who is by some identified with Ezekiel. I'm not aware of any Babylonian records mentioning him?
As things stand, it seems to me that all we can do is accept the Book of Ezekiel for what it is - the only description of his events, flawed in whichever ways it may be. We note his descriptions, and we note where we suspect the flaws may be. We can do no more in honest intellectual effort.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM4. why would Ezekiel (or "the writer/s") be providing this info, can we get an idea of his intent?
Good question. What is the message that is usually extracted from Ezekiel by those within your church that sermonise on it? Perhaps that would be a good question for John, Tim, Dusty, or any other Christian (or follower of Judaism, mutatis mutandis) too.
Then - is that the same message that was intended for an ancient audience? To me, it seems to be providing us with some foundational messages - i) Trust Yahweh, and don't mess him around; ii) Ezekiel had a hotline to Yahweh; iii) Rather incidentally, glimpses of life in this context. But for me, (iii) is the real meat of what I am reading - for you, that will differ significantly.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PMI'll look out for examples
I find it very satisfying when one can tie two sources together. When Kings tells us that Sennacherib went home and died after besieging Jerusalem, and then an Assyrian source tells us that he lived 20 years after the siege, we contrast the two to learn something about their reliabilities. Is there any reason why the Assyrian source would alter their version of the narrative? The most obvious distorting motive that might be present would be to glorify their work - but this isn't served by falsifying regnal dates. There seems no obvious reason to distrust the Assyrian chronology at this point in time (though note that their royal ancestor list, like that of the Israelites, spirals into obvious mythology in far history, with absurd lifespans and non-realistic events - and note, absurd lifespans that do not tie up with the absurd lifespans in the early Bible). And further - it's reasonable to assume that the Assyrian chronicler was more familiar with Assyrian affairs than the far-away writer of Kings, who was separated in both place and time from Sennacherib's later career. The implication of Kings that Sennacherib perished at Yahweh's judgement for challenging Judah immediately looks like wishful thinking.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM- I would agree that it is information provided for a purpose and that it considering why it was written is informative.
- but calling it propaganda categorises it as having a biased or misleading nature - which I wouldn't automatically agree with
So we have some interesting questions about the text:
1. is this info accurate or not
To be clear - are we talking about the apparent foretelling of Jerusalem's problems here? I'll assume so for now.
In one sense, it is accurate - in a general kind of way, it says that everything's going to fall to bits.
In another, it doesn't attempt to be accurate - there's (so far, anyhow) few explicit details. And those that have been given (lengths of captivity) are wrong.
It's all a bit "I'm getting a name... John... John... Does anyone in the room know a John...?", dressed up in theatrics. Which are entertaining in themselves - but trustworthy? Just a device to grab and hold peoples' attention, in my estimation.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM2. what sort of bias or focus does it have (I would think that a report will only provide a filtered view of an event, but it can do this without being misleading. Do you concur? So bias is just a way of describing filtering the report in a misleading fashion.)
This is a basic problem of human recording. All events are filtered through the perception of the recorder, no matter how objective they strive to be. But that doesn't mean that objectivity isn't worth the effort, despite the attempts of some to line up attempted objectivity and passionately embraced subjectivity as equivalent - we touched on this a few pages back with John pointing out that being scientific is not some kind of philosophical perfection as if that invalidated the worth of striving to get closer to reliability. I ran out of time to reply to that strand - but that observation was the core of my next reply that never got written.
So we have these texts that have been selected and refined by the adherents to explain Yahweh-worshipping. The original author(s) may have falsified various aspects in order to get their message across. The original author may well not be Ezekiel, but rather a priest(?) writing years later. Subsequent custodians of the text may well have rewritten, replaced, and modified sections - cf. Isaiah. At any of these stages someone may have been tempted to massage the words in order to place an apparent accurate foretelling in Ezekiel's mouth in order to make their religious tradition look more impressive.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM3. So if Ezekiel is filtering the info, is there any evidence to indicate whether or not this was misleading or not?
Other source books dealing with this context are not plentiful, sadly. Jeremiah and Baruch touch on the same context, but not the same material - and also attract the same suspicions of religious motive as Ezekiel does. Are there any corroborations coming in the minor prophets? The Quran has a figure called "Dhul-Kifl" who is by some identified with Ezekiel. I'm not aware of any Babylonian records mentioning him?
As things stand, it seems to me that all we can do is accept the Book of Ezekiel for what it is - the only description of his events, flawed in whichever ways it may be. We note his descriptions, and we note where we suspect the flaws may be. We can do no more in honest intellectual effort.
Quote from: drizabone on Jun 19, 2017, 05:45PM4. why would Ezekiel (or "the writer/s") be providing this info, can we get an idea of his intent?
Good question. What is the message that is usually extracted from Ezekiel by those within your church that sermonise on it? Perhaps that would be a good question for John, Tim, Dusty, or any other Christian (or follower of Judaism, mutatis mutandis) too.
Then - is that the same message that was intended for an ancient audience? To me, it seems to be providing us with some foundational messages - i) Trust Yahweh, and don't mess him around; ii) Ezekiel had a hotline to Yahweh; iii) Rather incidentally, glimpses of life in this context. But for me, (iii) is the real meat of what I am reading - for you, that will differ significantly.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Yesterday at 02:35 AMGood question. What is the message that is usually extracted from Ezekiel by those within your church that sermonise on it? Perhaps that would be a good question for John, Tim, Dusty, or any other Christian (or follower of Judaism, mutatis mutandis) too.
we haven't had a series on Ezekiel so I couldn't say. But I'll let you know at the end,
QuoteThen - is that the same message that was intended for an ancient audience?
You may not have meant this and the previous point to imply a sequence, but we normally aim to understand what a text means to its original readers first, then how it fits within context/narrative arc of the completed bible, and then we can think about what it means to us and what if any application it has.
QuoteTo me, it seems to be providing us with some foundational messages - i) Trust Yahweh, and don't mess him around; ii) Ezekiel had a hotline to Yahweh; iii) Rather incidentally, glimpses of life in this context. But for me, (iii) is the real meat of what I am reading - for you, that will differ significantly.
I'm wondering why Ezekiel decided to write what he did to the exiles in Babylon? The exiles would have been in a pluralistic society that had idols, values and world views that would have competed with Yahweh. Sounds like today. The message of being faithful to Yahweh seems to fit strongly with your i). Given that idolatry didn't seem to be a problem after the exile, it seemed to have been successful. Would this have been the case if Ezekiel's predictions hadn't been accepted as accurate and reliable? (They may have stopped overtly worshipping other gods/idols but that didn't mean that they were particularly faithful to Yahweh.)
we haven't had a series on Ezekiel so I couldn't say. But I'll let you know at the end,
QuoteThen - is that the same message that was intended for an ancient audience?
You may not have meant this and the previous point to imply a sequence, but we normally aim to understand what a text means to its original readers first, then how it fits within context/narrative arc of the completed bible, and then we can think about what it means to us and what if any application it has.
QuoteTo me, it seems to be providing us with some foundational messages - i) Trust Yahweh, and don't mess him around; ii) Ezekiel had a hotline to Yahweh; iii) Rather incidentally, glimpses of life in this context. But for me, (iii) is the real meat of what I am reading - for you, that will differ significantly.
I'm wondering why Ezekiel decided to write what he did to the exiles in Babylon? The exiles would have been in a pluralistic society that had idols, values and world views that would have competed with Yahweh. Sounds like today. The message of being faithful to Yahweh seems to fit strongly with your i). Given that idolatry didn't seem to be a problem after the exile, it seemed to have been successful. Would this have been the case if Ezekiel's predictions hadn't been accepted as accurate and reliable? (They may have stopped overtly worshipping other gods/idols but that didn't mean that they were particularly faithful to Yahweh.)
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 19, 2017, 03:16AMBut seriously, I don't understand why, when any of the mundane mechanisms suggested above would explain something like this without resorting to the exotic, anyone would skip straight over them and jump to the exotic as a likely explanation.
I nearly forgot this. I wanted to explain how I see things. I think I understand why you don't understand. You're a material sort of guy. We or at least I, on the other hand, believe that the God of the bible exists, that he created everything and that everything that happens, whether mundane or exotic, is God's activity. So whether or not we can identify a mechanical explanation for something, its not a problem to see a spiritual explanation to it.
(Aside: And he knows what is going to happen either because he is out of time and can see it everything at once, or because he knows what he's going to do.)
I understand that the bible is God's revelation to us, so its expected that things that it talks about will have special significance, regardless whether they are seen as mundane or not.
I also note that the scientific explanation of gravity and other non-supernatural physical phenomena are far from mundane. Any one for some quantum mechanics before breakfast? Entanglement is so not mundane isn't it. (But I know science didn't skip the easy obvious explanation and go straight for the right one, like you're complaining about for these prophecies.)
So I'm just pointing out that the simple mundane explanation is often not right, and my perspective facilitates our not being biased to exclude a spiritual cause for events. And it also allows me to express this so that it sounds like we're not biased like you
On a slight tangent, I've read that many people rejected Newton's idea of gravity because the idea of objects acting on each other at a distance was to exotic and smacked of the supernatural.
I nearly forgot this. I wanted to explain how I see things. I think I understand why you don't understand. You're a material sort of guy. We or at least I, on the other hand, believe that the God of the bible exists, that he created everything and that everything that happens, whether mundane or exotic, is God's activity. So whether or not we can identify a mechanical explanation for something, its not a problem to see a spiritual explanation to it.
(Aside: And he knows what is going to happen either because he is out of time and can see it everything at once, or because he knows what he's going to do.)
I understand that the bible is God's revelation to us, so its expected that things that it talks about will have special significance, regardless whether they are seen as mundane or not.
I also note that the scientific explanation of gravity and other non-supernatural physical phenomena are far from mundane. Any one for some quantum mechanics before breakfast? Entanglement is so not mundane isn't it. (But I know science didn't skip the easy obvious explanation and go straight for the right one, like you're complaining about for these prophecies.)
So I'm just pointing out that the simple mundane explanation is often not right, and my perspective facilitates our not being biased to exclude a spiritual cause for events. And it also allows me to express this so that it sounds like we're not biased like you
On a slight tangent, I've read that many people rejected Newton's idea of gravity because the idea of objects acting on each other at a distance was to exotic and smacked of the supernatural.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:49 am
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 09:08 PMI nearly forgot this. I wanted to explain how I see things. I think I understand why you don't understand. You're a material sort of guy. We or at least I, on the other hand, believe that the God of the bible exists, that he created everything and that everything that happens, whether mundane or exotic, is God's activity. So whether or not we can identify a mechanical explanation for something, its not a problem to see a spiritual explanation to it.
(Aside: And he knows what is going to happen either because he is out of time and can see it everything at once, or because he knows what he's going to do.)
I understand that the bible is God's revelation to us, so its expected that things that it talks about will have special significance, regardless whether they are seen as mundane or not.
I also note that the scientific explanation of gravity and other non-supernatural physical phenomena are far from mundane. Any one for some quantum mechanics before breakfast? Entanglement is so not mundane isn't it. (But I know science didn't skip the easy obvious explanation and go straight for the right one, like you're complaining about for these prophecies.)
So I'm just pointing out that the simple mundane explanation is often not right, and my perspective facilitates our not being biased to exclude a spiritual cause for events. And it also allows me to express this so that it sounds like we're not biased like you
On a slight tangent, I've read that many people rejected Newton's idea of gravity because the idea of objects acting on each other at a distance was to exotic and smacked of the supernatural.
Dave, I think that what Martin is hinting at is that your use of your "Occam's Razor" test works well for you except when it might go against your naturalistic presuppositions and then they trump the Razor.
(Aside: And he knows what is going to happen either because he is out of time and can see it everything at once, or because he knows what he's going to do.)
I understand that the bible is God's revelation to us, so its expected that things that it talks about will have special significance, regardless whether they are seen as mundane or not.
I also note that the scientific explanation of gravity and other non-supernatural physical phenomena are far from mundane. Any one for some quantum mechanics before breakfast? Entanglement is so not mundane isn't it. (But I know science didn't skip the easy obvious explanation and go straight for the right one, like you're complaining about for these prophecies.)
So I'm just pointing out that the simple mundane explanation is often not right, and my perspective facilitates our not being biased to exclude a spiritual cause for events. And it also allows me to express this so that it sounds like we're not biased like you
On a slight tangent, I've read that many people rejected Newton's idea of gravity because the idea of objects acting on each other at a distance was to exotic and smacked of the supernatural.
Dave, I think that what Martin is hinting at is that your use of your "Occam's Razor" test works well for you except when it might go against your naturalistic presuppositions and then they trump the Razor.
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ttf_drizabone
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:22 pm
TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible
I don't think I expressed myself clearly.
My main purpose was to say why I found it relatively easy to accept an 'exotic' ie supernatural explanation for things in the bible.
There were 2 reasons:
- its God's revelation to us and I'm not surprised that he uses 'exotic' means (signs, foretelling ...) to get our attention and to make the point that there are non-mundane issues at stake
- God does everything, even the stuff that looks mundane. He can do the exotic as easily as the mundane, so why be surprised when he throws a reverse swing in every now and then.
But there are a whole lot of related issues in there and I did tangent on to mentioning that things aren't often as simple as we first think, But that wasn't Dave's point.
My main purpose was to say why I found it relatively easy to accept an 'exotic' ie supernatural explanation for things in the bible.
There were 2 reasons:
- its God's revelation to us and I'm not surprised that he uses 'exotic' means (signs, foretelling ...) to get our attention and to make the point that there are non-mundane issues at stake
- God does everything, even the stuff that looks mundane. He can do the exotic as easily as the mundane, so why be surprised when he throws a reverse swing in every now and then.
But there are a whole lot of related issues in there and I did tangent on to mentioning that things aren't often as simple as we first think, But that wasn't Dave's point.