Shires pre-bankruptcy?

[Bach5G]

I saw an ad tonight for a used Shires horn that was advertised as “pre-bankruptcy”.

“Pre-bankruptcy” Shires - is that a thing now? “Pre-Eastman”?

[Burgerbob]

Been a thing for a while, yes.

[Cmillar]

Thought that it referred to the musician!....that's happened to many!

[chromebone]

I’m old enough to remember when Corporation Bachs were considered inferior and only a Mount Vernon or New York would do, and we’re not talking about “early Elkhart”, which seems to move further and further away from 1965 so now a horn built in 1975 somehow is “early Elkhart”.

There’s a lot of this retrospective upvaluing/vintagization going on nowadays as older instruments become more scarce. Used to be a CBS era Fender guitar was considered garbage, now they fetch stupid high prices.

Either it’s a good instrument or it’s not.

[JohnL]

Sometimes there is some legitimacy to such things. It'd be hard to argue that the quality of Getzen instruments didn't experience a marked improvement after the bankruptcy and the subsequent return of the Getzen family.

[spencercarran]

I’m old enough to remember when Corporation Bachs were considered inferior and only a Mount Vernon or New York would do, and we’re not talking about “early Elkhart”, which seems to move further and further away from 1965 so now a horn built in 1975 somehow is “early Elkhart”.

There’s a lot of this retrospective upvaluing/vintagization going on nowadays as older instruments become more scarce. Used to be a CBS era Fender guitar was considered garbage, now they fetch stupid high prices.

Either it’s a good instrument or it’s not.

And yet I've seen no ads bragging about Abilene Conns.

[greenbean]

And yet I've seen no ads bragging about Abilene Conns.

Someday...

[baileyman]

If I recall, the Shires hole was small enough a few people on TTF could have put up the dough to buy the debt and keep it going. I feel bad not promoting that idea there at the time.

But heck, then there wouldn't have been a pre-bankruptcy premium!

[Digidog]

Magical thinking is a hell of a drug....

Seriously: When was Shires bought by Eastman? I have heard that Eastman owns Shires, but not noticing when it happened - if that ever was a noticeable event. Did they close shop at any time?

[spencercarran]

Magical thinking is a hell of a drug....

Seriously: When was Shires bought by Eastman? I have heard that Eastman owns Shires, but not noticing when it happened - if that ever was a noticeable event. Did they close shop at any time?

2014 according to the Shires site. I'm a bit fuzzy on whether there was any previous collaboration or if it was a sudden buy-out. Were the "Eastman by Shires" instruments only after the acquisition?

[octavposaune]

Eastman bought Shires wholesale prior to a tax bankruptcy auction. Thankfully this kept the company intact. From what I understand production has sharply upticked and not many employees remain from pre bankruptcy (I do not judge whether this is good or bad).

Prior to the bankruptcy you could literally get anything you wanted from Shires if you had the funds to pay for it and the time to wait. Production is much more streamlined now and custom parts are much harder to get.

Benn

[sungfw]

2014 according to the Shires site. I'm a bit fuzzy on whether there was any previous collaboration or if it was a sudden buy-out. Were the "Eastman by Shires" instruments only after the acquisition?

There definitely was a collaboration between Eastman and Shires prior to the buyout. According to this post on TubeNet, which cites posts by Gabe Langfur, Eastman approached Shires about developing the Eastman by Shires line in 2004.

I purchased an Eastman by Shires baritone horn (British style) in 2010, largely on the strength of Shires' involvement (which was featured several times in the blog on the Shires website, including a post during the run-up to the 2008 Beijing Olympics highlighting Eastman as the exclusive supplier of brass instruments and Shires' involvement in the design, mfg, and QC of Eastman's low brass line), that had some mechanical and intonation issues. After a round of back-and-forth with Eastman, they had me ship it (on their dime) to Shires for inspection. Shires confirmed the issues were mfg-related and replaced it with one that they tested and QC-ed in-house.

[harrisonreed]

What it is, is that pre-bankruptcy, S.E. Shires couldn't afford to talk about why their artists played on both their signature instrument AND the student version of their instrument in an hour-plus long interview over Zoom while young students posted questions in the comments about which horn was better. Post-bankruptcy, they now have the power and funds to do that. They are now so powerful that you seriously can either choose to buy the $2000 or the $6000 version of the same, post-bankruptcy instrument, and not be able to tell the difference while the pressure is high and the cameras are rolling. I'm not judging them here. Just reporting that all this happened, and not just with one artist.

[Bach5G]

I read that Shires ran into trouble in 2008 and borrowed from Eastman. Eventually Shires filed for bankruptcy and Eastman bought the company. Steve left the company in approx. 2019 or so.

I found this in the WSJ (2014):

“Turned away by traditional lenders, the company borrowed money instead through factoring companies that provide temporary financing "at an unsustainable interest rate of 20% to 40%," the company said in bankruptcy court papers.

Last year, the company had sales of $2.8 million but lost about $379,000, according to court papers.

S.E. Shires filed for bankruptcy on April 8 in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Worcester, Mass., after tax collectors---in pursuit of unpaid debts---went after the company's bank account.

Eastman officials have also agreed to keep Mr. Shires, who started the company in 1995, on staff.”

“Factoring companies”? Is that what they call loan sharks now?

[BurckhardtS]

What it is, is that pre-bankruptcy, S.E. Shires couldn't afford to talk about why their artists played on both their signature instrument AND the student version of their instrument in an hour-plus long interview over Zoom while young students posted questions in the comments about which horn was better. Post-bankruptcy, they now have the power and funds to do that. They are now so powerful that you seriously can either choose to buy the $2000 or the $6000 version of the same, post-bankruptcy instrument, and not be able to tell the difference while the pressure is high and the cameras are rolling. I'm not judging them here. Just reporting that all this happened, and not just with one artist.

I'd love to see some primary sources on that Harrison. I'm not trying to be disparaging but I don't really buy that completely, and it seems you might be projecting some kind of personal gripe.

If I recall correctly, Eastman instruments (circa 2014-2016ish) were pretty different from standard Shires horns. I played a few of them and they were all pretty cheap feeling and inconsistent. You may be right about the Q series, but those are new as of around 2019.

What I'm trying to get at is that I don't think they had any kind of real grip on the "student instrument" space until fairly recently.

[harrisonreed]

What it is, is that pre-bankruptcy, S.E. Shires couldn't afford to talk about why their artists played on both their signature instrument AND the student version of their instrument in an hour-plus long interview over Zoom while young students posted questions in the comments about which horn was better. Post-bankruptcy, they now have the power and funds to do that. They are now so powerful that you seriously can either choose to buy the $2000 or the $6000 version of the same, post-bankruptcy instrument, and not be able to tell the difference while the pressure is high and the cameras are rolling. I'm not judging them here. Just reporting that all this happened, and not just with one artist.

I'd love to see some primary sources on that Harrison. I'm not trying to be disparaging but I don't really buy that completely, and it seems you might be projecting some kind of personal gripe.

If I recall correctly, Eastman instruments (circa 2014-2016ish) were pretty different from standard Shires horns. I played a few of them and they were all pretty cheap feeling and inconsistent. You may be right about the Q series, but those are new as of around 2019.

What I'm trying to get at is that I don't think they had any kind of real grip on the "student instrument" space until fairly recently.

Just look on YouTube for any of their interviews they do with their artists. Lots of primary sources there. I'm specifically talking about the Q series, which has been around a long time now.

Do they even make Eastman by Shires anymore?

I have no personal gripe. I'm not judging either. I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact. Then they went bankrupt. Now, they have a whole bus full of artists,and videos of them that go on for a very long time, where they talk about how they play both their signature artist horn for some things and the equally unbelievable Q series version of the same instrument for other things, and they can't imagine not having both. Fact.

How anyone interprets that is up to them.

[Bach5G]

“I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact. Then they went bankrupt.”

I’m pretty sure this is incorrect as I recall wondering when SE Shires filed for bankruptcy whether endorsers like R Sauer got stiffed.

And from the ITA website:

“In 2011, the S.E. Shires Company released the Michael Davis signature trombone …”

[BurckhardtS]

"I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact."

The WSJ article on their bankruptcy has a picture of Maynard playing their trumpets and lists other artists later in the article. The bankruptcy was filed in 2014. Nope.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-BANKB-19586

"Fact. Then they went bankrupt."

Quick Wayback machine check shows in 2012 mentions their artists on the FRONT PAGE of their website, AND has a page of their artists that has at least 30+ people there. Nope, not that either. Makes sense considering they started in 1995. Caveat, I don't know how they were endorsed back then so being an "Artist" may have meant they just played their horns and have a picture on their website.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120101000 ... hires.com/

If the argument was that since the bankruptcy and subsequent buyout they are becoming increasingly corporate, because of that they're not the organization they used to be, I'd buy that. Steve isn't even with the company anymore and had taken mostly an admin role after the buyout it seems.

There is also tons of merit to the argument that their QC is nowhere near what it used to be because the volume they deal with now. My own 2019 Shires axial valve was misaligned from the factory. Not great. Benn Hansson had fix it for me. I'm a sample size of one but I know other instances of spit keys falling off, slide locks unsoldering, etc. I'd even wager to say that you'd be have better return on investment buying a Q series at this point, because the quality of workmanship isn't all that far off anymore, and I'll stand behind that when I got to play the QAlessi and Alessi a few years ago.

More importantly, this seems to happen with nearly EVERY custom instrument manufacturer that gains widespread popularity. Remember when Bach was just Vincent Bach? Edwards? I imagine it's difficult decision when you become widely known and you are a small business to either decide to upscale production, or decide to decline orders so you can personally oversee all the orders. No wonder why Doug Elliott doesn't sell his mouthpieces to retailers and works his orders around his gigging schedule. The quality of his products has only got better over the years, but I'm imagining that there have been many times where he's had to either turn down or have high delay times on production to keep it that way. (maybe he could even tell us)

Seriously though, it took me about a minute to look up and disprove the "facts", and probably about 10 to write this out. Not to mention there are quite a few ex-Shires employees on this board who would probably be great primary sources. I'm not even sure I'd call an artist on an interview a "primary source" because they are probably winging those interviews in the first place and don't even know what to say.

E: FYI, not trying to be overly confrontational but I'm projecting my own pet peeve of people not understanding their own recall bias, and I think it's overall a great discussion to have in regards to instrument manufacturers and where they are headed and the logistics behind all of it.

[harrisonreed]

The WSJ article on their bankruptcy has a picture of Maynard playing their trumpets and lists other artists later in the article. The bankruptcy was filed in 2014. Nope.

E: FYI, not trying to be overly confrontational but I'm projecting my own pet peeve of people not understanding their own recall bias, and I think it's overall a great discussion to have in regards to instrument manufacturers and where they are headed and the logistics behind all of it.

I'm not arguing anything. I am making a point that, prior to the buyout, they made custom trombones for about $3-4000, and had few if any videos or ads involving endorsed artists. It wasn't a part of their marketing. You went in person and bought a horn from them. By around 2012, they already were in Eastman's corporate reach through the Eastman by Shires product line, and they started pushing artists.

I'm highly skeptical that Maynard is pictured anywhere playing a shires trumpet. He died in 2006. I don't think they started making trumpets until much later than that.

You should watch the video of the interview with their most promoted artist. It's recent. Shires is not the same company anymore. That's the point I'm trying to make. Steve is not involved at all anymore from what I gather.

They are still making great trombones. The marketing is absolutely ridiculous though.

[BurckhardtS]

I'm not arguing anything. I am making a point that, prior to the buyout, they made custom trombones for about $3-4000, and had few if any videos or ads involving endorsed artists. It wasn't a part of their marketing. You went in person and bought a horn from them. By around 2012, they already were in Eastman's corporate reach through the Eastman by Shires product line, and they started pushing artists.

I'm highly skeptical that Maynard is pictured anywhere playing a shires trumpet. He died in 2006. I don't think they started making trumpets until much later than that.

You should watch the video of the interview with their most promoted artist. It's recent. Shires is not the same company anymore. That's the point I'm trying to make. Steve is not involved at all anymore from what I gather.

They are still making great trombones. The marketing is absolutely ridiculous though.

My mistake, its' Doc Severinsen, I only caught a glimpse of the picture while scrolling past and mistook him.

FYI another 30 second Wayback machine search found me that they had been advertising at least since 2009. They were probably being made for years before then.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100901000 ... hires.com/

Steve officially left Shires in 2020 and it sounds like he was in a mostly admin role since the buyout. He is focusing mostly on his new Stephens Custom Horns.

https://www.stephenshorns.com/

I'm willing to bet he's doing that more on 'his terms' now.

Yes, marketing is getting ridiculous now with the social media sphere. That's a whole can of worms, LOL

[GabrielRice]

Harrison, a lot of your facts are not correct. The Sauer, Bollinger, Michael Davis models definitely predate the Eastman purchase. I think the Colin Williams and George Curran models do as well. Doc Severinsen's involvement with trumpets goes back well before the Eastman purchase, as does my BU colleague Terry Everson's.

Eastman by Shires goes back at least a couple of years before 2009, when I left my job at the company.

Q Series did happen after the purchase.

This model of essentially the same design produced in different factories and sold at different price points is very common in the electric guitar and bass world. Fender produces standard factory instruments in California and also Mexico, and the price difference ranges from about 30% to 100% or more depending on the models. They also have a custom shop in California where you can spend at least 100% more than that. They also produce Squier instruments on exactly the same design platforms in Indonesia, for about half the price of the Mexican instruments.

Are the US instruments better than the Mexican instruments? Mostly yes. Are the Mexican ones better than the Indonesian ones? Mostly yes. What's the best bang for the buck? Depends on your needs. But they're all good because they're all based on strong fundamental designs, and Fender dominates the market for that reason.

[BGuttman]

There was a point where you would plunk down your money and wait TWO YEARS for your Shires trombone. And a lot of people did so because they were a cut above anything else out there (with the possible exception of Edwards). During this time I had a catastrophic accident with my Yamaha 682 bell (that Steve regulated when I bought it from Osmun). I had a friend working at Shires and he acted as a go-between to get a Shires 1G bell on my Yamaha. It took 9 months for it to be done. This was a part of the problem at Shires. Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.

Eastman came to Shires for design help on their 500 series horns. The result was the 600 series that was sometimes called Eastman by Shires. Much improved instruments even though still student grade.

Eastman went on a buying spree of specialty instruments including Haynes Flutes and Shires Trombones. Basically Eastman provided business support but left the designs more or less unchanged. The purchase was very timely for Shires since they faced bankruptcy.

Incidentally, my friend had to leave Shires after about a year of intermittent paychecks. He couldn't afford to work there as a hobby. A lot of other Shires guys probably went that way as well.

[Burgerbob]

Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.

[harrisonreed]

That's cool that it was still shires or whatever, but once the Eastman by Shires came out you can't tell us Eastman was uninvolved in Shires from that point until the buyout.

You're skirting around my assessment of their advertising practices by trying to say that I've got my dates wrong, which I probably do, and they weren't doing it before Eastman. And they weren't. So we're in agreement on that one.

[Bach5G]

BG said: “ Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.”

I read an interview with Steve in which he said SE Shires Ltd. was doing fine until the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and that the company never recovered from that. Extraordinary circumstances. Might be a little unfair to dismiss Steve as a “lousy businessman” without knowing a lot more of the details.

[BGuttman]

BG said: “ Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.”

I read an interview with Steve in which he said SE Shires Ltd. was doing fine until the 2008 Global Financial Crisis and that the company never recovered from that. Extraordinary circumstances. Might be a little unfair to dismiss Steve as a “lousy businessman” without knowing a lot more of the details.

I was just quoting my friend who worked there.

Note: it's easy to run a company when times are good. The good businessmen can still run companies when times are bad.

I've known Steve for a long time. Fantastic tech. I think his trombones are great. But having to wait 2 years for one (and this was way before 2008) is not a way to build a large operation.

[Bach5G]

The friend who left after a year of intermittent paycheques?

[elmsandr]

SOMEWHAT back to the original point... One of Steve's big things with his horns is the bell spinning. To the point of where he did almost all of that himself. Pre-bankruptcy can be somewhat shorthand for bells spun by Steve.

Just providing a reason that might explain why somebody would want to seek it out.
Andy

[Matt K]

The difference between being a genius businessman that perfectly timed expansion, markets, etc. and a failed businessman, in my opinion, mostly boils down to luck despite what business coaching gurus, business consulting firms, etc. might otherwise tell you.

But Andy is spot on. The difference is that the earlier you go back in time for the bell, the higher the probability is that you have a bell spun specifically by Steve. It does seem that Eastman knows instrument production and has the resources for marketing. As to whether that translates to a more consistent product? I really haven't tried enough one way or the ther. I know I have a 2RVET7 made by Steve (from mid aughts) and a 7YLW8 bell from the Eastman era. Both are great bells.

There is definitely something about buying from a small, individually owned entity that I liked about Shires before their time with Eastman, despite mostly playing mass produced horns for most of the time I've been playing. I'm rather cheap though and there are a lot more used horns on the market from that segment, so that's often what I've gone with. But if I had the bread, I can definitely understand the appeal of a smaller shop where the owner is still involved in the craftstmanship.

[Ellefson]

Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.

^ This!

[spencercarran]

Just look on YouTube for any of their interviews they do with their artists. Lots of primary sources there. I'm specifically talking about the Q series, which has been around a long time now.

Do they even make Eastman by Shires anymore?

I have no personal gripe. I'm not judging either. I'm just saying, that when they were focusing all their efforts into custom instruments, they had no artists and had no Q series. Fact. Then they went bankrupt. Now, they have a whole bus full of artists,and videos of them that go on for a very long time, where they talk about how they play both their signature artist horn for some things and the equally unbelievable Q series version of the same instrument for other things, and they can't imagine not having both. Fact.

How anyone interprets that is up to them.

Posting a quick link to an example of that might make your point clearer, rather than sending every reader of your post off on a scavenger hunt.

Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.

No worse than Steinway monopoly.

[GabrielRice]

I just shouldn't read this thread.

"Steve was a talented designer but a lousy businessman.” This is a very easy thing to say, but the Shires factory was open under Steve's primary ownership longer than the Bach factories under Vincent Bach.

Hey, it's great that Shires is still around. But don't be fooled, Eastman is pushing them hard to shut down the competitors. Stealing artists, starting young artist programs, bankrolling festivals, flooding market segments- it's all to win by not having any competition.

I'm glad to see a business survive, but it's the darkest timeline of the survival. Tromboneland is better when it's a bunch of small boutique shops vying for the top spot.

How is funding promotional activities that benefit a lot of people "shutting down the competition?" How does a young artist program do that? What part of the market segment is flooded by Shires? Edwards/Getzen does the same kinds of activities, produces high-quality instruments, and is in no danger I know about of folding. It's a great time to be a trombonist. Rath is selling instruments, Matt Walker is selling instruments, Greenhoe (now owned by Schilke - do you have a problem with that too?) is selling instruments. And so are Conn/Bach and Yamaha. I see no evidence of competition being shut down.

And there's no "stealing artists." If you're talking about Joe Alessi, he always liked Shires trombones but had a very good deal with Edwards, who made a trombone he also liked a lot. And remember, Steve Shires was working at Edwards when Joe switched from Bach; he designed the 321CF bell that was the Alessi bell for many years. They had a relationship going back a long time. Once Shires had the financial resources to give him a similar deal and make a trombone he likes even better, he chose to go that way. That instrument was Steve's last R&D project before leaving the company. I imagine something similar happened with Marshall Gilkes, but I don't know anything firsthand.

You want a bunch of small boutique shops? You play modified Bachs from after the Selmer buyout! Under pressure from Shires and Edwards, Bach is finally doing some real innovation with trombones. THAT'S good for tromboneland.

----------------------------------------

Finally, a little info about bells. Yes, for years Steve was the only person at the factory who spun bells. It's not an easy task, especially for thinner bells like the 2RVE or 7YLW, requiring both strength and touch, and experience to know when the pressure you're applying is about to tear the sheet metal. Once production was at a certain volume, it was clear to him that it was impractical to have the president of the company, who was also responsible for making business things happen, be the only person at that step of production. So he tried for years to train somebody else but was unable to find someone who had the touch to do it successfully and consistently...until finally he did. That guy started doing a lot of the bell spinning before the Eastman purchase and continues to do it now. His bells are beautifully made. I'm sure he will train the next bell spnner, and I imagine he's trying to find the right person now.

[BGuttman]

Bach5g, let's not get testy here. Steve made great trombones. He opened a shop making the trombone equivalent of Haynes flutes. But in order to keep his company open he'd need to charge $5,000 more than Bach or Conn. Is his trombone $5,000 better than Bach or Conn? I don't think so. And if he did charge that much he wouldn't have much in the way of sales, which would further limit his market penetration.

While paying a $1,000 premium for a top line instrument would appeal to serious students and well-heeled amateurs, the people in this market really don't need this level of instrument. I know I was fine with my Yamaha 682G until it met its accident requiring a bell transplant. The bell alone cost as much as the original horn did some 10 years earlier. I'm not a gear head. I know that practice will do more for my playing than spending money on a new horn.

The big limiting factor of Chinese horns (I'm excluding Jupiter here since they are technically not made in Mainland China) has been a rather casual adherence of Chinese makers to Quality Control and Process Uniformity. Yamaha made their great contribution by optimizing their process to minimize the need for repair/rework. The Chinese just ignored it. A Chinese horn could come out OK or awful. Sales agents would buy a bunch and weed out the really bad ones, essentially doing the QC themselves. This has been the approach of Wessex and Jim Laabs. John Packer imposed his own quality standards on the Chinese. Both Steve Shires and Mick Rath worked with Chinese makers to improve designs and process (Shires with Eastman) and the result has been a significant improvement in Chinese instrument manufacture.

[ithinknot]

the Shires factory was open under Steve's primary ownership longer than the Bach factories under Vincent Bach

1922 (incorporation) - 1961 (Selmer purchase), vs 1995 - 2014

?

Without getting into the rest of the specifics, it's depressing that it's this hard to stay in business while taking care of your employees to first world standards, making a product generally recognized as excellent, and experiencing consistent demand for said product. If musicians' earnings were even slightly more in line with their requisite qualifications and experience, horns could and should cost more.

[BGuttman]

...
Without getting into the rest of the specifics, it's depressing that it's this hard to stay in business while taking care of your employees to first world standards, making a product generally recognized as excellent, and experiencing consistent demand for said product. If musicians' earnings were even slightly more in line with their requisite qualifications and experience, horns could and should cost more.

This has been a problem for a lot of First World companies, not just music related. The US and EU have restrictions on manufacturing operations that can seriously alter your ability to produce. Add to this the fact that US or EU salaries are 3-10 times the salaries of Chinese workers doing similar operations and you begin to see why there is so much off-shoring of manufacturing. I put in 17 years with a company that decided to move the manufacturing from two US plants to China (including the one I worked at). All I got for my loyalty was a command not to let the door hit me in the a$$ on the way out.

[Burgerbob]

How is funding promotional activities that benefit a lot of people "shutting down the competition?" How does a young artist program do that? What part of the market segment is flooded by Shires? Edwards/Getzen does the same kinds of activities, produces high-quality instruments, and is in no danger I know about of folding. It's a great time to be a trombonist. Rath is selling instruments, Matt Walker is selling instruments, Greenhoe (now owned by Schilke - do you have a problem with that too?) is selling instruments. And so are Conn/Bach and Yamaha. I see no evidence of competition being shut down.



You want a bunch of small boutique shops? You play modified Bachs from after the Selmer buyout! Under pressure from Shires and Edwards, Bach is finally doing some real innovation with trombones. THAT'S good for tromboneland.

I'm sorry, Gabe. I had a long post all typed up, but it just boils down to me being very dark about the post-capitalist hellscape that we inhabit. I don't necessarily blame Eastman for what they are doing- it's what they have to do to compete.

I play used Bachs because I can't really afford much of anything else without selling everything I own.

[Nomsis]

Hi, I am new here
And this seems like a really interesting discussion to me, because I play a Shires myself, namely the Pro-Select model which I bought about ten years ago (Which was a really big investment and my first "real" trombone back then ). So this seems to be a pre-eastman? I think I was told back then that this instrument was manufactured completely by Shires in-house, no eastman involved? But not completely sure. Does anyone know this exactly? How likely do you think it is that the bell was spun by Steve Shires?

At this time I had not heard of Shires anytime before and this was for sure partly me not knowing a lot, but since then Shires/Eastman seems to have really grown into a big business. Not sure if I like it, but not saying that is bad in general though.

[GabrielRice]

Hi, I am new here
And this seems like a really interesting discussion to me, because I play a Shires myself, namely the Pro-Select model which I bought about ten years ago (Which was a really big investment and my first "real" trombone back then ). So this seems to be a pre-eastman? I think I was told back then that this instrument was manufactured completely by Shires in-house, no eastman involved? But not completely sure. Does anyone know this exactly? How likely do you think it is that the bell was spun by Steve Shires?

At this time I had not heard of Shires anytime before and this was for sure partly me not knowing a lot, but since then Shires/Eastman seems to have really grown into a big business. Not sure if I like it, but not saying that is bad in general though.

Pro Select is pre-Eastman, and the bell was almost certainly spun by Steve.

[Bach5G]

Hey Bruce. Not testy. We’re good.

[Nomsis]

Pro Select is pre-Eastman, and the bell was almost certainly spun by Steve.

Nice, thanks for the information!
Not that it would matter, the instrument will not suddenly change now, I just was curios about it.

[Dennis]

Steve officially left Shires in 2020 and it sounds like he was in a mostly admin role since the buyout. He is focusing mostly on his new Stephens Custom Horns.

https://www.stephenshorns.com/

I'm willing to bet he's doing that more on 'his terms' now.

Yes, marketing is getting ridiculous now with the social media sphere. That's a whole can of worms, LOL

Part of the terms of the sale to Eastman was that Steve would stay on for five years in a consulting role, another term of the sale is a non-compete clause. (These are pretty standard terms in any merger/acquisition.) I'm not privy to the contract terms, so I don't know how long the non-compete clause is effective. It might be a lifetime non-compete: Steve Shires cannot produce trumpets/trombones ever again. It's pretty clear that part of the non-compete is that he cannot sell brass instruments under the Shires name, hence Stephens Horns. If I were an Eastman negotiator I would push for a lifetime exclusion as my opening position and settle for exclusive ownership of the Shires brand.

Based on what I've seen of mergers and acquisitions in the Pharma world I think it's unlikely that Steve was involved in an administrative role. Eastman would want to get things converted to their policies and practices as quickly as practical. You wouldn't want the former owner in there. What is likely is that Shires was engaged in engineering development and manufacturing. On the manufacturing side, I'm certain that his duty was to find and train up successors (note the plural) in bell spinning. (It's pretty clear that bell spinning was the manufacturing bottleneck at Shires, and expanding the product line would require relieving that bottleneck. You relieve the bottleneck by having more than one employee spinning bells.) On the engineering side, it looks to me like the job was developing the Q euphs, and at least the initial stages of the rumored Custom Series euphs.

Debt factoring companies are the business equivalent of payday loan shops. These companies make loans using a business' accounts receivable as collateral. They are very short-term loans (think weeks at most), and carry pretty crazy annualized interest rates. The point is that they are not intended to be long-term loan. I wish Steve had had a partner to manage the business side of S.E. Shires.

[Burgerbob]

Stephen has started making trombones again, btw.

[Dennis]

... but it just boils down to me being very dark about the post-capitalist hellscape that we inhabit. I don't necessarily blame Eastman for what they are doing- it's what they have to do to compete.

I'm a little (but just a little) more optimistic about things. Pandemics have a way of changing social structures. The plague had a lot to do with the end of serfdom in western Europe. Suddenly, peasants had choices available, and they were able to "negotiate" to a degree with feudal landowners.

We are seeing something similar beginning to happen with workers as we discover what the post-COVID normal is going to be. Owners and managers want their knowledge workers back in-house. Many of us aren't at all interested in going back to the office on a 40 hr/week basis. We will see how this plays out.

At the lower end of the wage scale, these workers have options: higher paying jobs with less job hassle.

What is interesting is that owners were happy to blame market forces for low wages for jobs in the service sector. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and market forces should be driving wages up the market is suddenly no longer relevant. Again, we will see how this all plays out.

[Burgerbob]

I'm a little (but just a little) more optimistic about things. Pandemics have a way of changing social structures. The plague had a lot to do with the end of serfdom in western Europe. Suddenly, peasants had choices available, and they were able to "negotiate" to a degree with feudal landowners.

I wish I could be as optimistic. All I see is more offshoring of trombone making, as American (or European) workers want higher wages and better benefits (which they should). Those offshore workers, whether Chinese, Indian, etc. don't have the same united worker power that they do in the US or Europe, so they take the brunt of it.

[Dennis]

Stephen has started making trombones again, btw.

Really? That's interesting to know. Has this been generally announced?

[Dennis]

All I see is more offshoring of trombone making, as American (or European) workers want higher wages and better benefits (which they should). Those offshore workers, whether Chinese, Indian, etc. don't have the same united worker power that they do in the US or Europe, so they take the brunt of it.

I'm only slightly more optimistic than you are. In my first career I was an academic. When I look at what is going on in higher education today I am very glad I got out when I did. Academic administration is growing, and the teaching and research faculties are shrinking. Instead of hiring tenure-track faculty, the administrators want to hire term adjuncts. No job security and they pay them a lot less. The over-supply of PhDs isn't helping matters. The American Association of University Professors (AAUP) is doing what it can, but university faculties are notoriously difficult to organize. I see many of the same patterns repeating in other sectors.

[Burgerbob]

Stephen has started making trombones again, btw.

Really? That's interesting to know. Has this been generally announced?

[GabrielRice]

I wish I could be as optimistic. All I see is more offshoring of trombone making, as American (or European) workers want higher wages and better benefits (which they should). Those offshore workers, whether Chinese, Indian, etc. don't have the same united worker power that they do in the US or Europe, so they take the brunt of it.

It's been a global economy for a long time now, Aidan.

Meanwhile, Shires is undergoing a major expansion of its Massachusetts factory right now.

[GabrielRice]

And Dennis, you're correct on some of your suppositions but not others.

Steve's role under the Eastman ownership was not administrative, yes. It was R&D and artist relations. I don't think he had much to do with the euphoniums, though I'm not sure about that. The last big project he worked on was the Alessi model, which was finalized and introduced shortly before he left.

During the time I was working there - and managing aspects of the production schedule - bells were never the bottleneck to my memory. Valve sections - which are much more complicated to manufacture - were most often what we were waiting for to get instruments out the door.

Steve is now living in Vermont, where he has a basement workshop in his home. He's building French horns under the name Stephens Horns, and because he is a single-man shop he's outsourcing many parts, many of which are made to his specification for his designs. His non-compete clause for trumpets and trombones has just expired, and he is gearing up to make trombones in a similar fashion. He actually subbed into the Vermont Symphony with me in December, playing a trombone that he finished assembling just a couple of days before. He sounded great on it.

[TomRiker]

And Dennis, you're correct on some of your suppositions but not others.

Steve's role under the Eastman ownership was not administrative, yes. It was R&D and artist relations. I don't think he had much to do with the euphoniums, though I'm not sure about that. The last big project he worked on was the Alessi model, which was finalized and introduced shortly before he left.

During the time I was working there - and managing aspects of the production schedule - bells were never the bottleneck to my memory. Valve sections - which are much more complicated to manufacture - were most often what we were waiting for to get instruments out the door.

Steve is now living in Vermont, where he has a basement workshop in his home. He's building French horns under the name Stephens Horns, and because he is a single-man shop he's outsourcing many parts, many of which are made to his specification for his designs. His non-compete clause for trumpets and trombones has just expired, and he is gearing up to make trombones in a similar fashion. He actually subbed into the Vermont Symphony with me in December, playing a trombone that he finished assembling just a couple of days before. He sounded great on it.

Gabe I thought the trombone in Aiden's pic looked a lot like the closed wrap version of the Brass Ark Model 2 trombone. I think Noah is on here and would know, but do you know if Steve is involved with those? Just curious since his french horns are for sale there.