Xeno vs Bach 42 vs Conn 88HO

[NickHomes]

Hello everybody!
Just a quick question, although I know that these questions are very much a matter of personal opinion and taste. I play a Courtois and I'm happy with it but I wanted a second instrument. I am still a student but I wanted to invest in something that will be useful for the future. I have the possibility to buy a Bach 42 (second hand) a Conn 88HO (second hand) or a Yamaha Yamaha YSL-882O (new if I invest 500$ more, which I am considering if it is really worth it).
I know I have to try them to know what I like more but I would also like to know the general opinion of professionals and experienced people. Could the Xeno be on par with the others in the future?
Thank you all although I know it has a lot of personal opinion....
Nick

[MrHCinDE]

You've pre-empted the most likely answer that I think many folk, including myself, would give by saying you know it is best to try them and that it is largely a matter of personal taste.

There is no question to me that all three of those instruments, and many others you don't mention, can be played up to the highest level. All could be a good long-term investment if the horn model suits your playing, and if the particular example is in good condition (hopefully a given for the brand new Yamaha at least!).

How useful they could be for you can depend on factors such as:

• your own sound concept

• types of group you wish to play in/style of music you play

• natural playing tendencies (e.g. you play naturally very bright and may benefit from something which helps maintain a darker sound or vice-versa)

• teacher preferences, shouldn't be decisive but can be important

• other horns you have available

Since you are a student, advice from your teacher would be a good place to start, they should know your playing pretty well. On the other hand, it's hard to say which direction you will ultimately move in as you continue to develop your playing in the future so also good to keep an open mind.

A Bach 42 generally sounds and plays like, well, a Bach 42. Sure, there are variations of it with valves, slides, bell materials, bell thickness, leadpipes and customizations but to me they all still retain at least some Bach 42 character. If you enjoy playing with that big, stable, dark sound, for example in symphonic works, a Bach 42 could work well for you if you get on with the playability of it. Some people don't love the relatively high resistance standard rotor valve or have a hard time with some upper register quirks. If you're still developing your upper register, ask someone who is solid there to check the horn out, making sure to cover a high D. With a design that's been around as long as the Bach 42 (or Conn 88H) there's bound to be a lot of variation over time and between specific horns and eras.

I've played and owned a few Conn 88H and find them to be more flexible than the Bach 42. I find it easy to adapt/colour the sound on an 88H and maybe the upper range is also a bit more open than the Bach. Other plus points for the 88H are that the standard rotor valve is already very good, no real need to consider anything fancier for most players I think. I personally find the Conn 88H to be a bit more responsive than the Bach and for me it is easier to play more delicately. At the other end of the scale, I have to be careful not to overdo it with an 88H and become too harsh and metallic. That's probably more to do with my technique and air flow than the instrument itself, but other instruments, such as the Bach 42, are more forgiving to me in that respect.

It's quite interesting the way you ask about the Xeno. It seems like you have in mind it could be somehow inferior? What is that based upon? I don't know about on a par with the others, maybe it could even work better for you if it suits your playing. In terms of manufacturing consistency and mechanical aspects, I'd be really surprised if the Yamaha was inferior to the others, also it's brand new so shouldn't have picked up any minor problems such as small dings in the slide or poorly maintained valve that the others could have. If you like the way the one-piece yellow brass bell plays with the narrow slide and open-wrap F attachement, it could be the horn for you. I haven't tried that model myself so can't give any opinion on how it plays. Keith Hilson mentions a few things which may be of interest to you in this video:

Or the gold brass version, which you didn't mention but may also consider if buying new:


When I was regularly playing in all sorts of different groups, including auditions for those groups and performing solos, I suppose the Conn 88H as the only horn I owned worked really well for me with it's flexibility. Nowadays, I have a handful of horns which are suited for different purposes and prefer the contrast of the Bach 42 to the lighter small bore horns I have and really enjoy the big Bach sound for symphonic works and some brass ensemble playing. Maybe the Yamaha would be somewhere in between?

Plenty of big generalizations in the above, try as many horns as you can and choose the one which makes you smile! Also, don't forget to take someone with you who could tell you how it sounds in front of the bell.

p.s. I apologize for the unsolicited advice but if you are basically happy with the horn you have, and are still deciding which musical direction you will develop in, perhaps the cash would be better spent on extra lessons, or put aside until you have a clear picture of what you want from a new horn?

[WilliamLang]

i find yamahas to be really interesting in a certain way. they seem to feel more boring behind the bell, to the player, than they do to the audience. i've heard a few theories, one i like is that the construction allows the sound to really project outwards, and less sound stays near the bell, if that makes sense.

as far as yamaha vs. bach vs. conn (vs. edwards vs. shires vs. getzen vs. thein) they're all good. try out as many horns as you can in your price range and find one that feels right.

i also like and second the last point that MrHcinDE made above.

[jbeatenbough]

oh, that is such an easy question... buy all three (and then some). Play them for a few years and see which ones you stop using. Then consider selling the ones your don't play.

[MTbassbone]

I play a Courtois and I'm happy with it but I wanted a second instrument.

What Courtois do you play? Why do you want another horn?

[Thrawn22]

From my understanding the Courtois is similar to the Bach 42. Courtois from what I've heard are good horns so why change? Mrchide's breakdown of your choices is pretty accurate (or in line from my experience). I my self prefer the Conn. To me, Yamaha horns are just a mishmash of Bach, Conn and King designs at a higher price.

But if you can play these potential picks you'll get a better idea.

[Trav1s]

i find yamahas to be really interesting in a certain way. they seem to feel more boring behind the bell, to the player, than they do to the audience. i've heard a few theories, one i like is that the construction allows the sound to really project outwards, and less sound stays near the bell, if that makes sense.

as far as yamaha vs. bach vs. conn (vs. edwards vs. shires vs. getzen vs. thein) they're all good. try out as many horns as you can in your price range and find one that feels right.

i also like and second the last point that MrHcinDE made above.

Interesting observation - I concur.

Yamaha has it on consistency for sure and I find the Xeno line somewhere between the two poles of Conn and Bach. I've played quite a few Benge (King) horns and don't encounter any of that vibe in the Xeno. At ITF 2018 I spent a fair amount of time playing the Xeno large bore horns. My personal choice is the YSL-882 (closed wrap). Behind the horn, I like the sound of the gold bell but others that listened to me said the yellow sounded better for me. The YSL-882O is a close second.

I started on Bach, moved to Conn and find the Conn horns fit me well. I do love a good Bach sound but not the quirks that go along with them. The Xeno horns play like the best of both worlds with a bit more Conn feel and response.

Try as many as you can before you decide as you may be surprised what you find.