TromboneChat

Hello,
I have an older King 3B and for some unknown reason, the waterkey spring has been replaced.
Since then, it feels quite horrible and stiff tome.

I was wondering if anyone might know what the correct spring should be?
Is there a part number for it? On the Conn Selmer site, they only show the spring TM01038 for the latest trombone and it has a different waterkey lever to the older ones.
My key lever runs parallel to the slide tube and the new ones stick up.

Here is a picture of what I have.

The current (newly fitted) spring wire thickness is 1.03mm or 40mils and it has a bend in it to follow the lever.
I do not know what the old one looked like as I never paid any attention to it since it was fine.

Perhaps this new spring is even the right one?

Anything keeping from taking your horn back to the tech and saying "Hey-horn plays great; any chance you could make the spring a little less stiff though?" I'd be surprised if a good tech didn't have 5 or 10 parts slides around each with different springs, and they're easy to change out.

jorymil wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:54 pm Anything keeping from taking your horn back to the tech and saying "Hey-horn plays great; any chance you could make the spring a little less stiff though?" I'd be surprised if a good tech didn't have 5 or 10 parts slides around each with different springs, and they're easy to change out.

Yes, there is something keeping me from taking it back.
Please see my post on the King 3B slide ruined here:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19277

Regards

Not the answer you're looking for, but get an Amado Water Key and never look back.

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:13 pm Not the answer you're looking for, but get an Amado Water Key and never look back.

Well ... not everyone loves Amado water keys.

And who would install this for Berntd - his gorilla of a tech there in Oz?

Exactly right.
I love the traditional lever keys. They are easy to locate while playing. I see people fumbling with the button type keys.
I don't think one could reach a button valve on the crook of a trombone slide.

berntd wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:00 pm
Yes, there is something keeping me from taking it back.
Please see my post on the King 3B slide ruined here:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19277

Regards

Understood now - thanks. I'm really sorry you've had to go through this.

jorymil wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:29 pm Understood now - thanks. I'm really sorry you've had to go through this.

Thank you for the kind words. It helps.

Just checked my old King.
The spring wire diameter is smaller than yours, at 0.864mm.

Thank you. does it have that bend in it to follow the lever end?

berntd wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:49 pm Thank you. does it have that bend in it to follow the lever end?

No,it does not.
It has only a horseshoe shaped bend that bears on the lower portion of the lever, below the bend.
The springs on all my horns have the same horseshoe bend, and the same 0.864 wire diameter.
I feel your pain dealing with the instrument repairman/blacksmith.
Maybe one of the tech's. here on the forum would be willing to sell/mail a correct spring to OZ ?

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:13 pm Not the answer you're looking for, but get an Amado Water Key and never look back.

I have one and wish I didn't.

The King spring is unnecessarily stiff, IMHO.
A substitute spring will depend on the outer diameter of the screw barrel and length to either side of the lever.
Also, the stock spring does not have the curve to match the lever, that is formed after the spring & lever are installed on the bridge.

Lastly, Amado keys are a PITA and the passage is WAY too small for trombones and most low brass.
Again, IMHO.

The Saturn water key is a better alternative to the Amado for trombone. It's larger. Still needs a decent tech to install, though.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:34 am The Saturn water key is a better alternative to the Amado for trombone. It's larger. Still needs a decent tech to install, though.

Dang, not a lot of love for the Amado key!

I like the Saturn key too, but have had issues with drainage. When I added the Amado key to one of my horns it became a slide I played as often as possible. I love picking the horn off of the stand at a gig and opening up the button and seeing a ton of water just pour out in a stream. It’s glorious!

Hey folks, the Amado water key will work better with a modification. Back many a year, I was also frustrated with the Amado water keys, on both trumpets and trombones......they just didn't empty fast enough.

I mentioned the problem to a tech friend of mine and he told me that the hole can be drilled out slightly and the flow is much better. Of course, he didn't tell me "HOW MUCH" the hole could be drilled out before it starts leaking. If you go too far, the hole will expose the cut out part of the mini-piston and there is no seal. So....I experimented, ruined 3 or 4 of the Amado water keys (good thing that they are inexpensive), and figured out the exact drill bit size that makes it work better without leaking.

Sorry, I am not going to announce the drill bit size. I figure that it is a right of passage that a tech must go through just like I did. Opening up the hole a small amount definitely makes a difference, but I still prefer the standard water key. Something about reaching the extra 1 or 2 inches for the Amado key is annoying.

Eric is so correct about the King water key springs.....they are way too strong! It impacts some trombones more than others......it sounds like this is why the OP started this thread. I try to release the tension on King springs before installing them, but the gauge is so thick that very little can be done. A different water key spring is sometimes the better solution, but that sometimes requires the spring loops to be opened up to get around the hinge screw barrel.

Ok wait,

Are you saying that I may have the correct spring after all? 40mils is the wire diameter I have.
Unless I know for sure, I am worried that ordering a genuine replacement will come out the same.
Mine definitely has the 4 wire coils per side.
Aftermarket springs I see advertised only have 3 wire coils - in the pictures.

If this cannot be solved, I may have to resort to making my own spring from piano wire. It will rust though.

The spring doesn't have to rust, though. What would stop you from dipping your spring in some lacquer (and letting it dry) before you install it?

Also, if you need a bend in the spring to accommodate your water key lever, you could do that manually with a vise and a set of pliers. The bend doesn't need to be perfect; just better than the spring as provided.

You are right. I need to check what thickness wire I have available.
But man, I am sooo tired of having to do everything myself because the professionals I deal with just don't cut it.
And I don't just mean instrument related stuff.

Yes, try a generic replacement or make your own.

But... you might find the current one much less annoying if you operate it with your thumb (underhand, fingers behind tube/ferrule). You've got a lot more strength that way compared to an unsupported index finger.

I tend to do it like that anyway, just because that's where my arm lands, and it works better in a rush because the thumb is much wider and there's no risk of slipping off the lever depending on its angle. But it might not work for shorter arms.

I use my thumb on the lever already.
It just feels wrong as there is no sort of linear movement. It feel like a strong elastic band where as a proper spring feels more like a cloth peg - if that makes any sense at all. It feels as if the poor lever is is flexing a bit.

You should see the spring that has been installed into my Bach 43 trumpet!! Same problem, worse actually.

berntd:
I just checked with my friend Google, and he shows sixteen instrument repair shops in the Sydney, Australia area.
The furthest away is 15 miles (24 kilometers) distant. Surely one of those can solve all of your repair problems.
Which one? Trombonists are a very helpful and friendly bunch. I'll bet that if you call the Sydney Conservatory of Music at phone number +61 2 9351 2222, you will be directed to someone in the trombone studio who can point you to a good repair shop.

Yes, I got the current tech recommendation from exactly there. In fact, the current tech is the very best, as recommended by just about everyone.

I have visited one other tech and he just told me straight that he is not interested in old instruments.
Another one, near me, only works through a music shop and one cannot contact him directly, let alone meet him.
I asked them for a part for a Yamaha part and they came back a day later saying the instrument must be sent away for service (at my cost).

I have asked countless people for recommendations but got nothing. Several only used techs that have since retired.

I am weary.
Frankly, would you just give your instrument to someone unknown, just like that?

WOW !!
The most highly recommended trombone repairman in Australia wasn't able to properly replace a slide tube or a water key spring ? That is really sad. Whether he is incapable, or can't get the right parts, or the slide is just too far gone, is pretty much irrelevant. The bottom line is that you will continue to have the frustration of struggling with the sticky slide from now on. It sounds like the only thing that will stop your frustration is another (better) slide.