Shires large bore setup advice

[Rusty]

Just wondering opinions on what might be considered a good all round large tenor Shires setup?

I mainly play a small Michael Davis + horn and would like to pick up my large bore having it feel as close in general blow/feel and slide positioning as the small horn. I currently play an Elkhart Conn 88h, but am finding it takes a few days to settle on.

I have tried a Shires VE bell and axial and will be able to try a yellow bell with rotor at some stage too. I found the Shires VE had some similar qualities to my 88h but felt far more even and predictable across the range.

I would be using it for mainly lighter orchestral and pops/commercial type playing, and pit work as well as teaching, nothing to heavy orchestral. I like rotors and a more compact blow, so don't think I would go axial, and would something with a yellow bell be more consistent in sound across the range and dynamics? I think using a standard taper tuning slide would help with patials lining up in a similar manner to my small horn?

Any comments or thought appreciated!

Thank you!

[Matt K]

AFAIK their most popular config, at least as of a few years ago, was: 7YM, Thayer, TW47. But the 2RVE/2RVET7, rotor, T47 was also popular and then given how many configurations there are l, there weren’t necessarily discernible patterns.

I wouldn’t worry about the tuning slide too much. But the “X” one would likely play different than your shires small bore. I have an “X” tuning slide that I’ve been playing with and I think I may prefer it but I’m not 100% sure yet, fwiw.

I’d probably give some serious thought to the Q series tenor and go from there. Given what you’ll be doing, it almost sounds like a medium bore or 525/547 slide might work well. I can say my 2RVET7 bell plays great on a medium bore slide for the types of situations you describe. I’ve either used a straight pipe or a rotor with it. Combo works great. I’d say the Thayer doesn’t work very well with it. I had one for awhile and just didn’t place nice on that bell, but played great on the 7 bell I had. Trubore is kind of halfway imo. I also had one and settled on a rotary with that bell.

[modelerdc]

I have a MD and a large bore shires. Based on my experience I would say the 7YLW bell and X tuning slide with a TB slide will be ballpart. The &YLW bell is soldered and yellow brass like the MD. The X tuning slide is a little bit tighter (not much) and will align the partials more like the MD than the regular tuning slide. The TB slide (wide too) will be a little more open off setting to some degree that X tuning slide. For lighter playing the LW Yellow brass slide with nickel crook is nice, and will feel more like the MD, but the regular weight slide is good all around.

[sstelmack]

Have you looked into shires Ralph Sauer model? Check out his video on it. It kinda sounds like what you are talking about. I love mine.

[GabrielRice]

In my old job doing fittings at Shires, I would probably start you with:

7YLW bell
T47 slide
standard tuning slide, though the X is also worth considering
standard rotor

I would want to try a LW slide, maybe gold brass tubes (T47GLW).
I would also want to try tuning slides in gold brass.

The Ralph Sauer model is also a great start, and there's no reason the bell can't switched out for a 7YLW or some other yellow brass bell.

[Rusty]

Have you looked into shires Ralph Sauer model? Check out his video on it. It kinda sounds like what you are talking about. I love mine.

I have seen this model and think it looks great, I know it would have a firm foot in the 88h camp but maybe be more refined or focused, especially with the soldered rim, but I'm wondering if I'll actually prefer the evenness and stability of a yellow bell or gold bell to split the difference. Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to try a RS model where I am in Australia.

How do you find the dual bore valve?

[Rusty]

In my old job doing fittings at Shires, I would probably start you with:

7YLW bell
T47 slide
standard tuning slide, though the X is also worth considering
standard rotor

I would want to try a LW slide, maybe gold brass tubes (T47GLW).
I would also want to try tuning slides in gold brass.

The Ralph Sauer model is also a great start, and there's no reason the bell can't switched out for a 7YLW or some other yellow brass bell.

Thanks Gabe, that's helpful, how would an all nickel silver slide with bass crook go with either the 7YLW or 7GLW bell? Would this lend itself to a fat, commercial type orchestral sound?

[sstelmack]

I personally like the dual bore valve. For me it seems really even. I had an axial but needed a bit more resistance. The standard valve was too resistant. I tried the newer dual valve and really liked it too. I could have flipped a coin and gone either way. I have large hands and the dual value linkage was just a little too close to be entirely comfortable. So for me the dual bore is great.

[GabrielRice]

Thanks Gabe, that's helpful, how would an all nickel silver slide with bass crook go with either the 7YLW or 7GLW bell? Would this lend itself to a fat, commercial type orchestral sound?

I'm not sure what you mean by that exactly, but some kind of TB47 slide is going to take you pretty far from the Conn feel and pretty far from the small bore you are more used to.

I tend to like nickel slides with gold brass bells, FWIW.

[harrisonreed]

In my old job doing fittings at Shires, I would probably start you with:

7YLW bell
T47 slide
standard tuning slide, though the X is also worth considering
standard rotor

I would want to try a LW slide, maybe gold brass tubes (T47GLW).
I would also want to try tuning slides in gold brass.

The Ralph Sauer model is also a great start, and there's no reason the bell can't switched out for a 7YLW or some other yellow brass bell.

Thanks Gabe, that's helpful, how would an all nickel silver slide with bass crook go with either the 7YLW or 7GLW bell? Would this lend itself to a fat, commercial type orchestral sound?

[Rusty]

Thanks Gabe, that's helpful, how would an all nickel silver slide with bass crook go with either the 7YLW or 7GLW bell? Would this lend itself to a fat, commercial type orchestral sound?

I’m really thinking of environments like pit shows I guess, where you’re usually the only trombone, playing directly into a mic, needing to blend with a horn and trumpet, but keep a more pop/commercial sound….I figure my setup might be slightly different than a career orchestral player sitting in a full brass section in a concert hall, that’s all.

[Matt K]

I typically go smaller bore rather than nickel. I like the nickel slide on my 3B for commercial stuff but I don't believe I've played a nickel large slide that I preferred over a yellow brass slide. Although I do tend to like nickel crooks. The medium bore slides from Shires have the option of using small or large shank pieces, and it does make quite a bt of difference in my experience. Gives you a lot of colors, so you can dial in for the right context pretty easily.

[Rusty]

I typically go smaller bore rather than nickel. I like the nickel slide on my 3B for commercial stuff but I don't believe I've played a nickel large slide that I preferred over a yellow brass slide. Although I do tend to like nickel crooks. The medium bore slides from Shires have the option of using small or large shank pieces, and it does make quite a bt of difference in my experience. Gives you a lot of colors, so you can dial in for the right context pretty easily.

Thanks Matt, that’s helpful.My only experience with nickel silver slides on larger horns is a Yamaha 620g bass, and that was a good combo matched with the gold brass bell. Like you, I’m used to nickel slides on 3B and MD+.

I think I need to consider the medium bore slide again, I also had a not so good experience with a .525 Edwards that played great with a straight neckpipe and a little less great with a Thayer valve section. I’m hindsight it would’ve been better matched to a rotor. In this case, yes, that does sound like a pretty versatile setup with the option to use either small or large shank.

[Matt K]

Hard to say since there are so many options. If it was worse with a thayer, a rotor may have shored it up a little. May have been a not-so-good fit with leadpipe too. Something that may also be worth considering if you think the larger side of things might be more suitable is a 525/547. Gives you a lot of the versatility of the medium bore upper but a touch broader. The "wide" crooks also give some extra breadth/openness too. Something like a TW2547LW (Wide nickel crook, 525/547, no oversleeves) is going to work well with a lot of bell combinations.

[sstelmack]

I'm using a tw25 .525 bore on my shires. As Matt said it has the choice of small and large shank. I think it makes a big difference switching between them. I'm mainly using my horn for the local community band, pit band and some side gigs. I like just being able to switch pipes and mouthpieces for a different sound.

[Rusty]

In my old job doing fittings at Shires, I would probably start you with:

7YLW bell
T47 slide
standard tuning slide, though the X is also worth considering
standard rotor

I would want to try a LW slide, maybe gold brass tubes (T47GLW).
I would also want to try tuning slides in gold brass.

The Ralph Sauer model is also a great start, and there's no reason the bell can't switched out for a 7YLW or some other yellow brass bell.

Gabe, just wondering if you can expand on how a T47GLW slide would play, could it potentially make the articulations and sound too rounded or diffuse or is it balanced out by the yellow bell enough? Besides older Conns, do many players gravitate towards gold slides?

[GabrielRice]

GLW are very nice slides. The lack of sleeves tends to counterbalance whatever diffuseness or thuddiness you might sometimes get with gold brass tubes.

I've led you too far into the weeds though, especially considering that you are not in a place where you can easily try various options to find something unusual that ticks the "magic" box.

I would recommend you contact Ben Griffin - if you're on facebook and/or instagram, he's easy to get in touch with - who did the fitting job after I did. Ben is a very fine trombone player who regularly plays different styles on different horns. He would be able to tell you specifically which tuning slide taper will most closely match the MD+, for example. I think his recommendation of a large bore to pair with the MD+ will be spot on.

[Rusty]

GLW are very nice slides. The lack of sleeves tends to counterbalance whatever diffuseness or thuddiness you might sometimes get with gold brass tubes.

I've led you too far into the weeds though, especially considering that you are not in a place where you can easily try various options to find something unusual that ticks the "magic" box.

I would recommend you contact Ben Griffin - if you're on facebook and/or instagram, he's easy to get in touch with - who did the fitting job after I did. Ben is a very fine trombone player who regularly plays different styles on different horns. He would be able to tell you specifically which tuning slide taper will most closely match the MD+, for example. I think his recommendation of a large bore to pair with the MD+ will be spot on.

Thanks for the suggestion Gabe, I’ve been in touch with him and he was super helpful. He recommended the 7YLW bell, standard tuning slide taper and looking into TW25 slides in either all nickel or yellow brass. He apparently uses a TW25NLW slide on his ‘legit’ horn too so has plenty of experience with them! I think I’ll head in this direction.