TromboneChat

I'm very pleased to announce the newest M&W alto trombone model.

The first of my German line of trombones, this initial example will be closely followed by tenors and basses.

.485"/.500" dual bore slide in nickel silver. Very thin yellow brass bell, with 1cm Kranz. Hand made tuning slide/handslide crook caps with snake decorations.

Beautiful!

Nice!

That’s really pretty!

I’m curious about the placement of the water key. Is that a common spot for traditional German trombones. It seems slightly harder to drain than the usual spot but maybe there are advantages I’m not understanding.

Just drooled a little bit don’t mind me.

andym wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:56 pm That’s really pretty!

I’m curious about the placement of the water key. Is that a common spot for traditional German trombones. It seems slightly harder to drain than the usual spot but maybe there are advantages I’m not understanding.

This waterkey position is seen on many German instruments. It does drain well, you just need to be aware of the angle that you hold the horn when doing so.

andym wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:56 pm That’s really pretty!

I’m curious about the placement of the water key. Is that a common spot for traditional German trombones. It seems slightly harder to drain than the usual spot but maybe there are advantages I’m not understanding.

The water key could not be in the normal spot… there are snakes there.

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:28 pm

andym wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:56 pm That’s really pretty!

I’m curious about the placement of the water key. Is that a common spot for traditional German trombones. It seems slightly harder to drain than the usual spot but maybe there are advantages I’m not understanding.

The water key could not be in the normal spot… there are snakes there.

well said

Ah, snakes can slither out of the way.

Thanks, Matthew. It’s always interesting to learn something new about our instrument.

Love the barrels, btw.

That looks really, really nice!

Why the .485-.500 bore? Isn't that quite large for an alto? Also: Is there a certain reason for so many builders to make dual bore altos? To me (though I may be uninformed) it seems that it's very rare with single bore altos these days.

Regarding slide bore sizes, there really is not a "standard" for altos. Certainly yes, there are examples smaller than this, but there are also examples larger than this. Both Thein and Pfretschner have made altos with slides in the range of .525/.547 dual bore.

German instruments are commonly made with both dual and single bore slides. My "regular" alto is .500" single bore slide, but I can make smaller or larger, depending on customer preference.

Digidog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:12 am

Why the .485-.500 bore? Isn't that quite large for an alto?

I have a Pfretzschner F !! alto with a .525/.547 dual bore. Takes much air.

Looks awesome. I hope to try one someday. Looks a lot like my alto (.508 and plays like a beast btw).

Digidog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:12 am That looks really, really nice!

Why the .485-.500 bore? Isn't that quite large for an alto? Also: Is there a certain reason for so many builders to make dual bore altos? To me (though I may be uninformed) it seems that it's very rare with single bore altos these days.

Sounds exactly like a Conn 36H, which is a great alto.

Is there a market for German altos in the US, or are you exporting to Germany? I've always been curious about novelties like the Yamaha German designs (631?) The German designs typically have smaller bores with larger bells? Snakes aside, what are the characteristics of a German trombone?

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:07 am Is there a market for German altos in the US, or are you exporting to Germany? I've always been curious about novelties like the Yamaha German designs (631?) The German designs typically have smaller bores with larger bells? Snakes aside, what are the characteristics of a German trombone?

The bore profile is one of the differences with German designs. Yes, typically they have small bore slides, with relatively large bells. The opposite of American horns, which have large slide bores, and relatively small bells.

There is also a proportion difference. German instruments have longer slides and shorter bells, compared to American Instruments. Bells are often very lightweight, with the nickel silver Kranz providing physical and sonic reinforcement of the bell/sound.

Is there a market? It is not that uncommon for an orchestra to order a "set" of German instruments for use in the appropriate repertoire.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:07 am Is there a market for German altos in the US, or are you exporting to Germany?

I would say starting with an alto is a wise decision. Alto trombone specs are already all over the place compared how standardized tenors and basses are, so a German alto is not a complete outlier. The same couldn't be said of a German tenor, which would really be for the more niche market of sets of German trombones for orchestral sections.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:07 am I've always been curious about novelties like the Yamaha German designs (631?)

I don't think the Yamaha German designs were novelties. They just weren't aimed for the North American market. I think there is a certain curiosity in Japan for European traditional style instruments, so it had its place in that market, certainly, and was an occasion to try to enter the German market (where more or less traditional German designs are still very common).

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:07 am The German designs typically have smaller bores with larger bells? Snakes aside, what are the characteristics of a German trombone?

For the more "traditional" style (lots of German makers make American-style or hybrid instruments now), and in no particular order:

-Wider bell flare but often with narrower bell stem
-Much thinner brass, especially for the bell
-When the brass is particularly thin, the bell is usually reinforced with a garland, which can be as narrow as ½" and as wide as 4" or more. In that case the rim is not rolled, and the wire is underneath the garland.
-longer slides, shorter bell sections
-often a J shaped tuning slide , which means more expansion earlier in the bell section, and less interruption in the conicity (this is probably a result of German trombones having stayed without tuning slides for about 100 years longer than other trombones, into the 20th century)
-typically higher copper-content brass is used (and even bronze)
-often friction-fit connection between slide and bell section
-dual bore slide is more common than single bore, but single also exists
-bore sizes vary widely. 19th century, most were quite wide bore (similar to medium to large bore). Since 1930s or so, more or less standardized into 5 different sizes, 1 is very small (alto and solo tenor), 2 is similar to small bore, 3 small-medium, 4 medium-large (can be tenor or bass, depending on design), 5 bass. The specific bore dimensions for each size vary between makers and even between model lines, and in some cases the difference between two sizes can merely be in terms of bell profile, or single vs dual bore.
-leapipe designs vary widely (from no leadpipe at all to extremely long leadpipes)
-unplated slides with soldered-on stockings stayed a thing for much longer
-traditionally, the handslide brace is "floating"/unsoldered, so the alignment of the outer slide can actually move as you play to follow the alignment of the inners.

Not to derail, but I have been in Japan for almost three years, played with a lot of groups, taken in some orchestra concerts, and been to a lot of music shops, but I've never seen a Yamaha German style instrument (which is the YSL-603). Closest I've seen is a single Thein Universal they had on sale for $10000, used. I don't think there is a market here for that instrument, and they are probably just a curio from Yamaha designers.

What I have seen are a bunch of the Yamaha "japan-only" models with weird valves or weird F attachment wraps. Those seem pretty popular. Based on what is in the used shops, people here play American style yamahas, and Bach style instruments in general (including lots of Edwards). Joybrass has some Conn's but mostly is introducing brand new Shires to the people working in Tokyo.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:41 pm

Digidog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:12 am That looks really, really nice!

Why the .485-.500 bore? Isn't that quite large for an alto? Also: Is there a certain reason for so many builders to make dual bore altos? To me (though I may be uninformed) it seems that it's very rare with single bore altos these days.

Sounds exactly like a Conn 36H, which is a great alto.

Indeed it is.

For quite some time I played a borrowed Yamaha alto (was it 671?) that was a straight bore, and I came to like and accommodate to the rather forward and cutting tone of it. When I bought my dual bore Shires alto (I couldn't borrow the Yamaha any longer), it took me several years to adjust to the softer and more airy sound it provided, and it also needed more air to come to its right.

Now it's the other way around: Whenever I try a Yamaha alto, it feels small and the tone fragile, and I feel that I can push both my sound and technique further on the Shires; like it's more sonically robust and firm.

Back to the original post about a new alto trombone being offered. I applaud Matthew's production of a new horn and the possibility of more "German" models to come. There is a lot of blood, sweat and tears that goes into producing a new instrument. Knowing Matthew's attention to detail, he probably did a great deal of research and then went through some trial and error prototypes to make this instrument. It is A LOT of hard, skillful work and I always appreciate it when an instrument maker presents a new model. Kudos to Matthew and the M&W company!

That's a beautiful looking alto Matthew - I hope I get a chance to play one sometime soon as travel starts to resume.Thanks for posting!

Jim Scott