TromboneChat

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Olds trombones and how they play? I unfortunately have never had a chance to play on one wondering what you all think.

New pod out on Olds learned a ton doing this one and wanted to give a special shout out to JohnL his website was a great resource.

BuzzSprout
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/10393424
Apple
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/t ... 1519342657
Google
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... IAxAF&ep=6
Spotify

I've played a number of Olds:

- Super
- Recording
- P24g
- S2x
- 021 Compact Marching Valve Trombone

The super I didn't like just because it was too small.

The Recording I currently own, and I really love that horn. Just very smooth to play. Great for solos. People say it doesn't blend, but I disagree. It blends with larger horns nicely, it may not blend with smaller horns. Also Recordings are arguably one of the most physically beautiful instruments out there. It plays loud when you want it to. The grip is nice to hold. It plays like a comfortable old shoe. Love the sound. If 88h were a small bore horn, it might have been an Olds Recording R15.

P24g is controversial. It's a small double valve indy bass. A lot of people are offended by the "small" part of that. By "small" is meant a 9" bell and I think valve tubing that is the same size as the slide. Not 100% sure on that second one. It has a lot of punch and a lot of edge, and if you use a small mouthpiece, you can play it like a big tenor. I liked mine because I could play it like a big tenor. I got rid of it because my band mates preferred a more velvety sound on bass. I would rather have the P24g than the Kanstul I have, but I agree that the Kanstul makes a better ensemble sound. If I only played bass bone for my own enjoyment, I would have kept the P24g.

S2x, I don't remember the exact number, 20, 22 or 23. Single valve small bass. I think this one had a dual bore slide 547/562 or Olds equivalent 555/565. The valve is odd, and probably small. TIS. People don't like these because they are different. I took one and put Duo Gravis valves on it, and it ripped. Lots of edge unless you worked to control it.

I've had a couple O21s. They are fun to play, and great to travel with. I'd use one with a mic, but they don't produce a lot of sound. Most of the ones you find have been beat to hell. They aren't great instruments overall, but they are so convenient and "good enough" that's why I seem to need to have one around.

The Recording and P24g have reddish bells and a lot of nickel silver. I think this is part of the great sound. Balancing one material with another. That's why I want to try that P15. The S2x was yellow brass.

I wish I had a George Roberts Olds horn. Those are beautiful, play great, but are generally priced more than I can justify based on the use I'd get out of it.

In general, before I started buying Olds horns, I had the feeling that they were "old", heavy, smelled bad, and were generally clunky. After I bought a couple, I loved the sound and how well built they were. I still don't like the valves, but they are designed and built just right aside from that.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:51 am P24g ... think valve tubing that is the same size as the slide.

P-series basses have .585" valve tubing; larger than the slide, certainly, but not as large as a typical modern bass trombone would have.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:51 amS2x, I don't remember the exact number, 20, 22 or 23. Single valve small bass. I think this one had a dual bore slide 547/562 or Olds equivalent 555/565. The valve is odd, and probably small.

A regular single valve would be an S-20; S-23 is dual-dependent and S-22 is the original GR model.
All of the S-series basses (and their precursors) have small rotors. Sometime roughly coincident with the move to Fullerton (maybe a few years later - there's not a lot of data), the attachment tubing changed from .585" to .565" (yes, it got smaller). S-22's and S-24G's also have small valves, but their attachment tubing is .585".

Note that I use "S-20" and "S-23" to refer to instruments of the same design that were made before Olds started using those model numbers (or at least before they started using them in their sales literature).

Yeah, I'm a little sketchy on the spec details.

Also forgot that I owned an Ambassador, but only long enough to unsolder the counterweight. There are people who like the ambassador, but I'm not one of them. To be fair, I didn't really give it a chance. It played ok, but I wasn't going to keep it, so I didn't become attached to it.

I’ve owned 3 supers - two LA and one Fullerton, I currently own an LA super. Light but not too light but they’re definitely front heavy and require a counter weight, a Bach counterweight fits fine on mine. People may disagree with my description of their sound, but…. if you think of Kings and Bachs as opposite ends of a spectrum then the olds super is about in the middle of them. I also really love the narrow hand slide grip, plus the unique “tone ring” makes for some eye candy

I have one of the original Olds trombones, the #2 size with an 8" bell. It's a great small bore. TIS makes it very slide heavy so I would not want to play fast passages on it. The friction fit means it can come apart at the worst times. But it sounds great.

I did use it to play some Turn of the [20th] Century solos with a community band. I used it as single trombone in a Theater Orchestra. And I played a single trombone part in a Debussy piece with orchestra.

I had an Ambassador with F (Los Angeles!) that I owned since I was a kid. It had a flat wrap F attachment with no E-pull and an upside down mounted valve (mechanism is by your cheek). I used it as my main trombone until I started taking lessons as a returnee and we (my teacher and I) discovered that it had some serious intonation problems, so I sold it.

Recently I purchased a 1924 Olds Los Angeles TIS.

My biggest gripe (if you can call it that) with my horn is that the slide is very heavy. It can be pretty annoying to use plunger because of its tendency to lean forward. Despite the weight of the slide though playing fast feels effortless, after some getting used to it of course.

The horn has no slide lock and is tension fit so I have to be extra careful when putting in mutes so my bell section doesn't pop right off, which has happened several times.

Despite the horns issues it's become my primary horn, it sounds beautiful and is really just a joy to play, especially in a jazz combo setting.

jonphilpott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:20 pm I’ve owned 3 supers - two LA and one Fullerton, I currently own an LA super. Light but not too light but they’re definitely front heavy and require a counter weight, a Bach counterweight fits fine on mine. People may disagree with my description of their sound, but…. if you think of Kings and Bachs as opposite ends of a spectrum then the olds super is about in the middle of them. I also really love the narrow hand slide grip, plus the unique “tone ring” makes for some eye candy

Any particular Bach counterweight? Been looking for one for my Super.

This is the one I have:

Olds really made great horns. I've owned:

* Olds Special (Fullerton)
* Olds Standard (TIS)
* Olds P-15
and currently own:
* Olds Recording w/F (R-20)
* Olds O-20 valve section w/ Studio bell

The Special was a solid horn: good slide, nice tone. Likewise, I really liked the 20s Standard with TIS: for such an old horn, it was in great shape, and really gave you that Hot Fives/Hot Sevens sound.

The P-15 was a nice horn as well: really light slide paired with a gold brass bell. It didn't pair well with my Bach 4c, though: felt like it wanted a smaller cup volume - maybe a 7c or something.

Ultimately I just liked my Yamaha and my 3b better.

Nowadays, I play an Olds valve section with an Olds Studio bell. Really like it; I don't have tons of experience with valve horns, though. I'm considering swapping out the tenon to fit my 3b; not sure on the wisdom of that one. I parted with a Conn 5g/6h a few years back; this one's a keeper. I like it well enough that I'm looking for the flugabone equivalent.

The Recording... needs work and is currently in pieces. I had it for sale here a couple of months ago; a couple of inquiries, but no takers. Will probably finish soldering in the new valve section, then find a new home for it.

I really like my olds super. It’s got an awesome response in the upper register. Nice and full, but a little more mellow than I thought to would be. I’ve been playing a Bach Mt. Vernon 12 with it. It seems to slot a lot better with this piece as opposed to an older Reynolds 12c star that came with it. I’ve found myself sensitive to mouthpiece choice on it, but I think that’s more me than the horn.

It has an awesome original slide that was never repaired and functions quite nicely. The only issue I had with it is that it’s quite front heavy. I’ll have to look into the counterweight option listed above.

atopper333 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:46 pm It has an awesome original slide that was never repaired and functions quite nicely. The only issue I had with it is that it’s quite front heavy. I’ll have to look into the counterweight option listed above.

The counter weight really made a big difference with comfort and general playability - although part of me wishes it didn’t say Bach!

Some more available:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/124312979280

jonphilpott wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:14 am Some more available:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/124312979280

Do you know the diameter of the hole on this item? Will it fit the Recording which is 0.50"?

DakoJack wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:14 am Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Olds trombones and how they play? I unfortunately have never had a chance to play on one wondering what you all think.

New pod out on Olds learned a ton doing this one and wanted to give a special shout out to JohnL his website was a great resource.

BuzzSprout
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/10393424
Apple
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/t ... 1519342657
Google
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... IAxAF&ep=6
Spotify

Good Podcast guys!

A couple of points. You mentioned that fluted slides were discontinued on a lot of earlier models, or the models themselves were discontinued. They were used on the Super and Recording Models well into the 1950s Fullerton years. Also, some people claim the LA horns are superior especially for trumpets, but I think that's more instrument specific. As with any manufacturer, good and bad examples can be found across any factory, era etc. These instruments are 50+ years old at this point, so care and maintenance, repair history etc. could be a contributing factor for a lot of instruments.

Monkhouse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:12 am

DakoJack wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:14 am Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Olds trombones and how they play? I unfortunately have never had a chance to play on one wondering what you all think.

New pod out on Olds learned a ton doing this one and wanted to give a special shout out to JohnL his website was a great resource.

BuzzSprout
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/10393424
Apple
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/t ... 1519342657
Google
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... IAxAF&ep=6
Spotify

Good Podcast guys!

A couple of points. You mentioned that fluted slides were discontinued on a lot of earlier models, or the models themselves were discontinued. They were used on the Super and Recording Models well into the 1950s Fullerton years. Also, some people claim the LA horns are superior especially for trumpets, but I think that's more instrument specific. As with any manufacturer, good and bad examples can be found across any factory, era etc. These instruments are 50+ years old at this point, so care and maintenance, repair history etc. could be a contributing factor for a lot of instruments.

Thanks for listening! glad you enjoyed it. Interesting the whole fluted slide thing really blew my mind I really wish I could talk to someone who worked for olds on the philosophy behind them and how they compare.

DakoJack wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:41 am Interesting the whole fluted slide thing really blew my mind I really wish I could talk to someone who worked for olds on the philosophy behind them and how they compare.

"Fluted" inner slides (with concave grooves) were short-lived at Olds. Patented, but very difficult to manufacture.

They were replaced, still in the Los Angeles days, by patented "Duo-Octagonal" (16-sided) slides, which were used on the Olds Super and Old Recording trombones (and perhaps a few others; JohnL would know) until the end of Olds production in Fullerton (1979).

I believe the idea was to reduce friction and wear. If maintained properly over the decades, these slides still work quite well.

Monkhouse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:04 am

jonphilpott wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:14 am Some more available:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/124312979280

Do you know the diameter of the hole on this item? Will it fit the Recording which is 0.50"?

I measured my cross brace using digital calipers at 0.4575" and the hole diameter at 0.4085", it is a tight fit, but it does fit

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:39 pm "Fluted" inner slides (with concave grooves) were short-lived at Olds. Patented, but very difficult to manufacture.

They were replaced, still in the Los Angeles days, by patented "Duo-Octagonal" (16-sided) slides, which were used on the Olds Super and Old Recording trombones (and perhaps a few others; JohnL would know) until the end of Olds production in Fullerton (1979).

I believe the idea was to reduce friction and wear. If maintained properly over the decades, these slides still work quite well.

Here's a TIS Standard with fluted tubes and a hand-hammered finish:
http://itsabear.com/horns/Hammered_Stan ... ndard.html

and a Self-Balancing with duo-octagonal tubes (and Super-style braces):
http://itsabear.com/horns/UnSuper/unsuper.html

As I understand it, the idea of the fluted/duo-octagonal tubes was to support the outer tube over the entire length of the inner tube in order to keep the outer slide from "nosing down" in the longer slide positions. The fluted/duo-octagonal cross section minimized the contact area while still providing that support.

I have several slides with duo-octagonal tubes that date from the 1930's and 1940's and show little to no wear, but there's no way to tell how much use they've had (and I have others from the same era that look like five miles of bad road).

jonphilpott wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:12 pm

Monkhouse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:04 am

Do you know the diameter of the hole on this item? Will it fit the Recording which is 0.50"?

I measured my cross brace using digital calipers at 0.4575" and the hole diameter at 0.4085", it is a tight fit, but it does fit

IMG_2352.jpg
IMG_2353.jpg
IMG_2354.jpg

My recording has 2-tone braces with a red brass sleeve over it, so it's a bit wider diameter. I ordered one of the weights.I'll try to bore it out to .50."

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:39 pm

DakoJack wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:41 am Interesting the whole fluted slide thing really blew my mind I really wish I could talk to someone who worked for olds on the philosophy behind them and how they compare.

"Fluted" inner slides (with concave grooves) were short-lived at Olds. Patented, but very difficult to manufacture.

They were replaced, still in the Los Angeles days, by patented "Duo-Octagonal" (16-sided) slides, which were used on the Olds Super and Old Recording trombones (and perhaps a few others; JohnL would know) until the end of Olds production in Fullerton (1979).

I believe the idea was to reduce friction and wear. If maintained properly over the decades, these slides still work quite well.

I was not aware of the distinction between fluted, and duo-octagonal. Thank you.

Monkhouse wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:47 amI was not aware of the distinction between fluted, and duo-octagonal. Thank you.

I've often wondered if the whole idea was inspired by barrel rifling in firearms. I would describe the original fluted design as being like conventional land-and-groove rifling, but inside out and with no twist. The duo-octagonal design is analogous to polygonal rifling, though once again inside out and with no twist.