TromboneChat

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:02 pm Look in our Classifieds. Often older models will come up at attractive prices. And they will generally be better than the two you listed.

You can also post a message in our Classifieds as a WTB and see who replies (it's free).

Also, welcome back to the Trombone.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:13 pm You are definitely going to want to look used. Were you looking independent or dependent? What tuning?

Older independents in Bb/F/G/Eb show up from time to time, as do dependents in Bb/F/Eb and Bb/F/E.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:40 pm An older King (6B, 7B, 8B), Benge 290, Getzen 1052, Blessing B98, Holton 180, or Yamaha 612/613 would probably meet your price point and play better than the ones you listed.

Consider the suggestion that you figure out what kind of double valve you are looking for. Of course the first question is "have you ever played a single valve"? If not, the double is going to be twice as hard to learn. I usually suggest starting with a single valve instrument, getting used to the F side positions, and then adding the 2nd valve.

Dependent valve instruments can be in Bb/flat E (the original version - which allows you to hit low B at the end of the slide, sort of like an instant E-pull), Bb/Eb, and Bb/D. Customizations can include a 2nd valve that gives low C in 1st position. You can get used to any of these, but I don't suggest constantly switching off between them. Bb/flat E doubles are relatively inexpensive and can easily be adapted to Bb/Eb or Bb/D so you could start off with a Bb/flat E and later modify it.

Independent valve instruments are usually in Bb/G/Eb or Bb/Gb/D. The Yamaha 613 comes with two slides so you can configure the 2nd valve either way. Bb/Gb/D is the more popular but there are advocates for the Bb/G/Eb.

Whatever you choose, good luck.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:05 pm Yes, you CAN find decent used bass trombones for $2,000-$2,500. Keep looking (especially on this forum).
Other TromboneChat members can give you suggestions for brands / models to be aware of.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:14 pm I paid about $1,600 all in for my King 7B independent bass about two years ago. Be patient, the right horn will come along. I would say go ahead and get a double valve bass if you want - you can play it as a single valve bass until you are ready for the second valve.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:05 pm Yes, you CAN find decent used bass trombones for $2,000-$2,500. Keep looking (especially on this forum).
Other TromboneChat members can give you suggestions for brands / models to be aware of.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:27 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:05 pm Yes, you CAN find decent used bass trombones for $2,000-$2,500. Keep looking (especially on this forum).
Other TromboneChat members can give you suggestions for brands / models to be aware of.

This could be a pretty darn good "starter" bass trombone.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26305

Yamaha trombones are well-made and relatively "robust." But this one has only one valve.
Why not buy it for $800 and play it until you are used to the size and heft of a bass trombone?
If you like it after a year, sell it for what you paid and get another used bass with two valves.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:21 pm It‘s definitely possible to find one of the models mentioned by Bruce in a decent used condition within your budget.

I went down the route of a cheap (Wessex) independent horn for a bit, it wasn‘t bad for the money and had decent enough slide and valves but ultimately I am much happier with the used dependent Yamaha 612Rii I replaced it with, especially sound-wise, which incidentally was well within your budget, even when bought from a music shop with returns policy and warranty etc.

I‘d politely suggest that if your budget is not going to cover axial, Hagmann or other nice open valves, a dependent setup may even play a bit more open, which some people prefer, as with the independent setup all the air has to go through both valves all the time. Other people get on with a higher resistance so independent standard rotors don’t bother them. There are of course many aspects to how open a horn plays other than just the valves and ideally you could try a couple of budget dependent and independent horns, likely with standard rotors, back-to-back and make your own mind up, you may be surprised.

I‘m not playing a lot of modern big band charts or college-level bass trombone solos, if that‘s your intention, there are some technical passages which are just flat out easier to play on dependent setups. A lot of bass trombone repertoire is playable with single valve, all is playable on a dependent setup and a small percentage of advanced stuff is easier on independent.

Best to keep an open mind really, a great-playing dependent horn could be all you ever need and may need a bit less patience to find one with less compromise on, say, slide condition in your budget.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:07 am Look used. I recently saw a Yamaha 613H advertised for $2000. Other flavors of Yamaha 613 are also excellent and easy to play. You see Holton TR-181s in that range too. Getzen 1052.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:19 am You will get more for your money on a used top line horn than a new [or used] step up.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:19 am If I was looking for a "permanent" instrument I'd probably skip those (and even the Wessex). If you want something inexpensive to start on planning to upgrade at some time in the future some of the brands you mentioned are OK, but they are at best "step-up" horns. It's going to be tough to find champagne on a beer budget. You will get more for your money on a used top line horn than a new step up.

heldenbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:54 am When I was looking for a good bass trombone, in roughly your price bracket, Tom Rice was able to help me out. I'm now the happy player of a nearly pristeen Getzen 1062 FDR (red brass bell, stacked rotors). "green bean" on TromboneChat. Don't discount offers from forum members of second-hand instruments, in-line *or* stacked. I think you would find the trigger range just above the pedals easier going on stacked rotors.

MrBadger wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:11 am I’ve heard very good reports of the Rath (non-modular) 900 double independent bass trombone - not *too* much more expensive than JP.

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:30 am Thanks for your insights and thoughts here. But I really do prefer going for an independent double values for my trombone.. I am the type that wants to experiment as much as possible with the things I get, so I think an independent double value does suit me the best for that purpose, as it seems to open up possibilities..

I did come across a few other used trombones, a bit higher price range than I've been planning:
Jupiter JTB1180
JP 333 Rath

Do you have any insights on these two by any chance?

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:19 pm

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:30 am Thanks for your insights and thoughts here. But I really do prefer going for an independent double values for my trombone.. I am the type that wants to experiment as much as possible with the things I get, so I think an independent double value does suit me the best for that purpose, as it seems to open up possibilities..

I did come across a few other used trombones, a bit higher price range than I've been planning:
Jupiter JTB1180
JP 333 Rath

Do you have any insights on these two by any chance?

You can experiment with much more than where to use a Gb valve on it’s own to make some particular passage easier, that‘s basically the main technical advantage of an independent setup. There’s the small matter of technique and musical experimentation, before even mentioning mouthpieces, leadpipes and materials. Fair enough though, you‘ve clearly given it some thought and are keen on an independent setup which should also be possible in your price range.

I haven‘t tried either of those models personally. I tried the XO 1240 which is kinda the next model up in the Jupiter line. Probably beyond your budget as a new horn but if you found a used one would be worth a look. It was a really fine Instrument with a big fat sound.

Generally speaking I think the used market probably offers better value in your budget. Yamaha, King, Benge, Holton, Getzen etc. should all be possible with some patience.

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:00 pm
Appreciate it, thanks for your response!

One general question I do have (for everyone here), what would make a 30-50 year old trombone still hold up its sound after all these years and still be better the new trombones at the lower price point (from maybe a lesser known brand)?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:02 pm

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:00 pm
Appreciate it, thanks for your response!

One general question I do have (for everyone here), what would make a 30-50 year old trombone still hold up its sound after all these years and still be better the new trombones at the lower price point (from maybe a lesser known brand)?

The design. The materials. Who built it. The care with which they built and aligned everything.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:56 pm I have a couple of bass trombones: a Yam 620G that I found used at the LMS and a Benge 290 that belonged to a friend. Both horns required some TLC. I think about selling one or the other but I can’t decide which and I like them both. Both are decent horns that would be within the OP’s budget.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:02 pm

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:00 pm
Appreciate it, thanks for your response!

One general question I do have (for everyone here), what would make a 30-50 year old trombone still hold up its sound after all these years and still be better the new trombones at the lower price point (from maybe a lesser known brand)?

The design. The materials. Who built it. The care with which they built and aligned everything.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:47 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:02 pm

The design. The materials. Who built it. The care with which they built and aligned everything.

All of this. I've been served VERY well by the Yamaha YBL-612 RII I picked up on ebay for quite a bit less than the earlier versions go for. AND... if you want to upgrade later, it's much easier to sell and get the same type of money back than with "lesser known" brands.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:47 pm There are subtle differences even between two examples of the same model, but generally the uniformity and quality of manufacture of the lower grades is less than the top grades. Again, there is no champagne on a beer budget. If you really like playing the lottery, you might actually come out with a top grade instrument from one of the lesser makers -- but the odds are not in your favor.

The Benge 290 was brought out in the 1980s to be a more "legit" King trombone. It didn't catch on with the pros and became orphaned. They go for low prices but play way above their cost. Big issue with this and any other used instrument is its history. A well maintained horn is worthwhile. But one that was "rode hard and put away wet" can be a big headache.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:24 am If you do decide to buy (modern-ish) used, it‘s good to inform yourself of the main points to check. There are some specific mechanical and material deterioration issues to check for so have a look round here for advice, or even better ask a tech. or experienced trombonist to check out before you buy.

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:14 am Not sure of the history and the pictures and descriptions provided may be potentially misleading. So I'm trying to weigh all my options here (both used trombone for better buck for the quality or a brand new trombone with a lesser known brand, but knowing it'll be new).

irtjames14 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:31 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:47 pm
All of this. I've been served VERY well by the Yamaha YBL-612 RII I picked up on ebay for quite a bit less than the earlier versions go for. AND... if you want to upgrade later, it's much easier to sell and get the same type of money back than with "lesser known" brands.

It looks like many people are suggesting to stay away from lesser known brands, like the JP, Rath, Jupiter, and such.. Is it generally just a perception that people don't like these lesser known brands compared to the more established ones? Or is there really a considerable difference in quality and sound from these compared to the established brands?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:37 am FWIW, I play my dependent Yam and independent Benge interchangeably based on how I’m feeling that day. Whether it is dependent or independent never enters my mind. That being said, my teacher liked to play his pedal F in tune in 2nd on the second trigger.

I second this advice: used instrument made by a reputable manufacturer (Yamaha, King, Benge, Holton) from a reputable dealer (Dillon, Brass Exchange, Brass Ark, Hornguys etc.).

slidefunk wrote: ↑Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:37 am You'd be surprised what a few hundred dollars in work can do for a 40 year old horn.
Good luck!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:47 pm There are subtle differences even between two examples of the same model, but generally the uniformity and quality of manufacture of the lower grades is less than the top grades. Again, there is no champagne on a beer budget. If you really like playing the lottery, you might actually come out with a top grade instrument from one of the lesser makers -- but the odds are not in your favor.

The Benge 290 was brought out in the 1980s to be a more "legit" King trombone. It didn't catch on with the pros and became orphaned. They go for low prices but play way above their cost. Big issue with this and any other used instrument is its history. A well maintained horn is worthwhile. But one that was "rode hard and put away wet" can be a big headache.