TromboneChat

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:18 am**

Thinking of buying a euphonium, something I haven't played since the 70s. I'm a large mouthpiece player, using a DE equivalent to a Bach 5 on my small bore tbones and 5G on my F attachment large bore. I also play bass tbone. I will be using the euphonium in community band and Tuba Christmas. For basic community band stuff (nothing more challenging than high school band music) is a 3-valve small shank horn OK? Of the large bore four valves, some are 4th valve compensating and some like the King it seems the 4th valve is like the trigger on a trombone. Did I get that right? I can't afford a new horn, even a Wessex, and for sure will avoid the no-name eBay euphonium shaped instruments. I like Kings, in case my handle didn't give you that clue. Locally I can find a nice Caravelle (Getzen?) 3-valve with case for $250, a vintage Keefer 4-valve with no case for $600. I've been haunting eBay and was sniped out of a King 2280 I had bid on that went for under $500. I see a lot of Yamahas. Let the opinions flow!

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:33 am**

All of the 4-valve instruments will have the 4th valved tuned to function like the valve of a Bb/F trombone.

The compensating system just allows for normal fingerings in that valve range below the staff by compensating for the intonation tendencies. In the same way trombone positions with the valve are adjusted the farther/lower you go, fingerings on a non-compensating 4-valve euphonium have to be adjusted as well. The compensating system remedies that, mostly.

The King 2280 (and Conn equivalent) is a very fine instrument for a doubler, and is a large bore/large shank instrument. The 4th valve tuning slide is set up with a spring to be able to act as a tuning-trigger of sorts.

Another fine doubler's instrument, though small shank from the factory, is the Yamaha YEP-321. A common mod to them is to have a large shank receiver/leadpipe installed. Somewhat rare, is a slot-in rotary 5th valve, that can help with some of those previously mentioned tuning tendencies below the staff.

The 3-valve front action instruments will get the job done, and iirc are pretty much found in small shank, but you may encounter some horn snobs that won't want to sit next to you, either because your horn aims/faces the wrong way, or because the sound doesn't fully match their large bore Besson/Adams/Willson/etc...

One thing to be mindful of, is the small British baritone style instrument. It's a small, cylindrical-bore, horn that is made to sound differently from a full size euphonium. Sellers will sometimes erroneously list them as a euphonium. They are wrapped different most of the time, and are quite "small", so you should be easily able to tell them apart.

At least up until a few years ago, you could quite often find older Besson/Boosey compensating euphoniums right around $1000. Don't overlook those old 3-valve compensating euphoniums, either, as they're still very good instruments depending on the condition of the valves.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:42 am**

Personally, I’d recommend waiting for a king 2280 or a yep321. Compensating is either overkill or probably a compromise at a low price point. But non compensating gives you a good bang for the buck and a few alternate fingering for intonation. And the king and Yamaha models are really high quality for the price point used.

Yamaha is small shank and King is large shank. I actually have a mild preference for the small shank tbh. It’s a little bit easier of a blow. You can also change out the receiver for the 641 receiver which is large shank if you want it to be more open

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:20 am**

I'd get a 2280 (just sold one) because of the tuning options it has, and because they are cheap (ish) and are still in production so you can still get parts. Compensating systems are heavy, expensive, and in my view, seriously overrated. 2280 has a great sound, it's less expensive, lighter, and has some insane tuning options (Eb pull on 4th valve).

Another one I like is the Conn 24i Connstellation (and equivalents) because it has a main tuning slide trigger, and a smaller bore so it's not as woofy as your general euphonium.

There is a lot of prejudice in the euphonium world. If you don't have compensation and a big woofy sound, some will turn their noses up at you. If you're just playing for your own enjoyment, (and what else is there to do with a euphonium?) you don't have to worry about that.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:46 am**

Kingfan wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:18 amI will be using the euphonium in community band and Tuba Christmas. For basic community band stuff (nothing more challenging than high school band music) is a 3-valve small shank horn OK?

Let me focus on this bit for a moment...

If you're giong to playing euphonium rather than trombone in the community band, does that mean you're doing so out of necessity (i.e., there's no euph player right now)? If that's the case, and the band you're in is of reasonable size and regularly plays outdoor concerts, may I humbly suggest one of the nicer four-valve bell-front American "euphoniums" (such as a Conn 22I or 24I or a King 2266)? It's hard work for a single bell-up euph to be heard in a 50+ piece band in an outdoor venue without a shell. As a bonus, the Conns both have detachable bells (not sure about the King), so you can pick up an upright bell (they're not common, but they do hit the market from time to time) for indoor use.

The 24I has a medium shank, which is a mixed blessing - the larger shank allows for a larger throat and backbore, but it also limits your choices.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:02 pm**

Je wrote: Let me focus on this bit for a moment...

If you're going to playing euphonium rather than trombone in the community band, does that mean you're doing so out of necessity (i.e., there's no euph player right now)?

Correct!

If that's the case, and the band you're in is of reasonable size and regularly plays outdoor concerts,

Seldom, if ever. The band is currently under 30 members.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:38 pm**

I agree about the YEP-321 - that's what I have, and in a concert band it will do a great job. A number of years back I got to play regularly on an older King 3-valve bell-forward baritone (American baritone, not British) which also sounded great.

Just a clarification about the 4th valve - it doesn't EXACTLY serve the same function as the trombone F attachment. Yes, it lets you play notes below low E, but they're going to be badly out of tune. The main point of the 4th valve is to replace the 1-3 and 1-2-3 fingerings, which will be out of tune on a 3-valve instrument. That said, a 3-valve model could do the job in a band setting if you lip those notes down a bit (or if the band's intonation is less than perfect anyway!).

BTW I bought my Yamaha for $300 at a local pawn shop - sometimes great deals are out there.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:22 pm**

I just want to clarify one point: the Conn 19I or King 2280 has the spring on the 3rd valve slide, not the 4th. I tried to use it on my 19I and just gave up. It's really stiff. I disconnected the spring and just use the 3rd valve plain. Incidentally, I set up 4 as a perfectly in tune 1-3 (1-3 is just a little sharp). I tune my 3rd valve a little flat so 2-3 is more in tune and use 4 instead of 1-3. Also, 2-4 is better than 1-2-3.

In Community Band I found that the 2280 or the Yamaha 321 fit in well with all the other players since nobody is doing serious intonation compensation. I would guess I see a lot more Yamaha 321's than King 2280 / Conn 19I instruments.

One summer I played only Baritone in the band and I was given an Olds instrument, common 3 valve bell front "American Baritone". Later I got an Olds Ambassador 3 valve front bell up horn that I keep as a backup.

I have to say, I frequently got some great parts playing Baritone in band.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:03 pm**

The Yamaha 321 is a fine instrument - user-friendly with a good sound and good predictable intonation. Compensating horns will give you better fingering options for the notes below low E, but I doubt that the OP will have to deal with that register at all. A small shank Bach 5G or Schilke 51 works great in that horn - Wick makes a 4AY specifically designed for that model (hence the "Y" in the designation). I have preferred 321's where the leadpipe was changed out for a large shank Yamaha pipe. I wouldn't suggest that for amateur playing - the instrument works quite well with the original pipe, and the larger pipe just opens it up a bit, and allows for more choices of mouthpieces that work with the horn. The 321 is marketed as an entry level/intermediate horn, but it can sound great in a lot of settings.

If you want to hear 2 good examples of 321's being used in a professional setting and sounding great, I'd recommend the NY Philharmonic (Bernstein) - Mahler 7th (from the 90's - Joe Alessi playing the opening solo), or Holst - The Planets with Philadelphia Orchestra (Ormandy - late 70's/early 80's?) with M. Dee Stewart playing the various solos for Euphonium in that work (especially in "Mars").

You can often find good deals on used 321's on eBay or local online sites like Craig's list.

Jim Scott

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:50 pm**

If you wanted to spend a bit more you could get a compensation euphonium from Wessex:

https://us.wessex-tubas.com/collections ... -baritones

The Dolce and Festivo models get pretty good reviews on Davide Werden’s tuba/euphonium forum.

The Yamaha 321 and the King 2280 are otherwise excellent instruments. Steve Ferguson had a write up on the 2280 a while ago. It’s gone from his website but I copied it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/soav73xa4lhnd ... .docx?dl=0

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:46 pm**

Grab this 321 that's $500 shipped Buy It Now, and enjoy. It doesn't get much better than that!

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:28 pm**

I have a Cerveny euphonium 0.590 inch 15mm bore 4 rotary valve with bass shank receiver and a movable main tuning slide.
Playing high in tune on a euph is more difficult then in low range. As a trombonist we are used to the slide to fix intonation. A lever on the tuning slide will be a really good friend over a compensating system.
Rotary valves seem to blow more like a slide the pistons.
I also like the bell on the left side so my right reading eye (old guy stuff) is free to read.
I did have the bass shank put on and the lever custom done by Kevin Powers.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:10 pm**

I would recommend the Yamaha YEB 321S. I started on one in the 70s and switched to a compensating Besson b/c I thought the 4th valve was a cool octave key. Keep in mind the compensating system only works when the 4th valve is used. Most if not all of the euphonium parts are not in the compensating range. Now before I get flamed, I know that the compensating system allows for all kinds of alternate fingerings and other neat applications.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:03 pm**

You may want to look at Dillon's stencil horns. They have both a 4 valve and a 3+1.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:21 pm**

I'd go an old Boosey Imperial over a Yamaha 321! Also go a 3 or 4 size mouthpiece rather than the 5 / 51!

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:29 pm**

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:46 pm Grab this 321 that's $500 shipped Buy It Now, and enjoy. It doesn't get much better than that!

I would, if somebody would buy the 2B I have for sale!

Posted: **Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:25 am**

In the $500 range you are limted to old school horns, try to get one that's not been hammered, and has four valves. the Yamaha 321 is very good. I picked up a old King four valve, the older design that's a little smaller than a Euphonium. larger than the British style baritone. Paid $500 for and it plays well, Good for that traditional band sound and a good choice for jazz.

Posted: **Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:26 am**

If meant to add if you could afford closer to a thousand dollars, go over to Mack Brass and check out his compensating Euphonium, a very good buy for the money.

Posted: **Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:10 am**

modelerdc wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:26 am If meant to add if you could afford closer to a thousand dollars, go over to Mack Brass and check out his compensating Euphonium, a very good buy for the money.

They are running $1,350. Too pricey for me.

Local independent music store says they have two used Kings, one a 4-valve, in the warehouse and are supposed to be getting back to me later today. If I can trade in my 2B, this might work. Fingers crossed!

Posted: **Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:30 pm**

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:46 pm Grab this 321 that's $500 shipped Buy It Now, and enjoy. It doesn't get much better than that!

Dang...I already have one but might buy another at that price!

Posted: **Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:40 pm**

Local independent music store says they have two used Kings, one a 4-valve, in the warehouse and are supposed to be getting back to me later today. If I can trade in my 2B, this might work. Fingers crossed!

They wanted $1,500 for their King and more for their Besson. The search continues!

Posted: **Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:06 am**

bassclef wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:30 pm Dang...I already have one but might buy another at that price!

Clearly what you should do is combine both into one 8-valve double bell euphonium.

Posted: **Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:53 am**

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:06 am
bassclef wrote: ↑Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:30 pm Dang...I already have one but might buy another at that price!
Clearly what you should do is combine both into one 8-valve double bell euphonium.

I concur!

Posted: **Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:26 am**

Personally, I prefer the XO euphonium. I’ve been playing on now for two or three years and it’s wonderful. I am an XO endorsing artist, but I play their instruments because they’re wonderful not because they endorse me

Posted: **Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:38 pm**

ssking2b wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:26 am Personally, I prefer the XO euphonium. I’ve been playing on now for two or three years and it’s wonderful. I am an XO endorsing artist, but I play their instruments because they’re wonderful not because they endorse me

A bit pricey considering my budget... cheapest I found was a refurb at $5,500.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:43 am**

I play 4-valve regularly along with my standard slide trombone. I agree with what everybody here has been saying about the 4th valve, and it's all true. HOWEVER, there's more that you can do with the 4th valve besides reaching a few lower notes. You can play through the 4th valve using the other 3 in normal fingerings, but use a partial up to get back into the 3valve range. What this does is give you a different resonance and voicing which is useful from time to time to give a feeling to the music. It's hard for me to explain, easier to show.

In any event, exploring the full range and tonal options of the 4th valve is a fun thing to do. Will it be useful in a community band application? I don't know, but it would be interesting to try. Don't be afraid to explore and experiment with those valves!

And $1,200 to $1,500 isn't a bad deal for a euphonium. They are expensive however you look at it, and you definitely don't want to buy a cheap off-brand (nothing good will come of that). They aren't a popular instrument, so the second hand market would be slim pickings. Put the word out at your local music shops and I'm sure that you will be able to find a horn that meets your budget.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:57 pm**

Even in a community band, you will probably run into notes that require the 4th valve, as a few pieces in the standard band repertoire have them (e.g. First Suite in E flat).

4th valve alternate fingerings are rarely useful, but there is the odd piece where they are pretty great to have. Probably won't come up in a community band as it's fiendishly hard, but the Pineapple Poll suite for concert band has some NASTY lower-register 16th note cello lines in the euph part that are a piece of cake if you hold down the 4th valve and play it all in F. Having to play that part on a 3-banger is the stuff of nightmares.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:04 pm**

Pezza wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:21 pm I'd go an old Boosey Imperial over a Yamaha 321! Also go a 3 or 4 size mouthpiece rather than the 5 / 51!

I suggested the 5G or Schilke 51 because the OP says he plays a large shank 5G on his trombone, and because they are readily available from online or even local retailers. Since he is planning to play this instrument in a community band, and has a fairly tight budget, these are good options. Obviously, if he wants to take a deep dive into euphonium playing, he can go on a search for other options. The 321 works best, IMHO, with something not "too" big - you can go bigger if you want to change the leadpipe to one with a large shank , but that adds a lot of cost that seems counter-productive under the circumstances.

BTW, the Philadelphia Orchestra recording of the Holst - Planets that I recommended not only has a 321 being used, but I believe that M. Dee Stewart used to play a Bach 6.5AL on that horn. It worked well for him.

Jim Scott

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:29 pm**

Dee still has his 321! Rich Matteson also played a 321.

The 321 is more than enough for any doubler. It's a great horn.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:36 pm**

Thanks for the advice, everybody. Unless something special at a great price comes along, I'm pretty much set now on a Yam 321 or a King 2280. My 2B should be sold by Tuesday, freeing up the funds I need. The search continues!

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:35 pm**

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:04 pm
Pezza wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:21 pm I'd go an old Boosey Imperial over a Yamaha 321! Also go a 3 or 4 size mouthpiece rather than the 5 / 51!
I suggested the 5G or Schilke 51 because the OP says he plays a large shank 5G on his trombone, and because they are readily available from online or even local retailers. Since he is planning to play this instrument in a community band, and has a fairly tight budget, these are good options. Obviously, if he wants to take a deep dive into euphonium playing, he can go on a search for other options. The 321 works best, IMHO, with something not "too" big - you can go bigger if you want to change the leadpipe to one with a large shank , but that adds a lot of cost that seems counter-productive under the circumstances.

BTW, the Philadelphia Orchestra recording of the Holst - Planets that I recommended not only has a 321 being used, but I believe that M. Dee Stewart used to play a Bach 6.5AL on that horn. It worked well for him.

Jim Scott

Just what I would do!
I didn't say the 321 was bad (tho I don't like them) or the 5G was bad (I use 1 in my medium bore tenor & when I play baritone).

I use a Yamaha YEP 842 & YEP 641 with a 2Gish mouthpiece, a 4 is the smallest that works for me on eupho.

In my experience it is rare for anyone to play on smaller than a 4 in community bands, at least in Australia!

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:37 am**

Euphonium is my primary instrument. My main teacher was Brian Bowman. At Northwestern, I studied with Frank Crisafulli, Arnold Jacobs, and Vince Cichowicz.

When I hear euphonium played at an orchestra, I instantly know if it's played by a trombone player- the sound is narrow and compact. I always strive for purity and openness in my sound. Remember, this is not a valve trombone.

Regarding equipment, I recommend getting a horn with excellent intonation (the Adams seems to have the best now) and a mouthpiece with a deeper cup. I used a Schilke 51D for 30 years and now use a Giddings Kadja.

Posted: **Sun May 01, 2022 9:48 am**

XO Euphoniums can be had thru QUINN THE ESKIMO for a reasonable price.

Posted: **Sun May 01, 2022 11:15 pm**

We don't have any XO euphs in stock right now I'm afraid, but they are great horns.

Posted: **Mon May 02, 2022 3:50 pm**

ssking2b wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 9:48 am XO Euphoniums can be had thru QUINN THE ESKIMO for a reasonable price.

But not for the $500 or so price range that OP has specified. To each their own of course, but I have had poor experiences with the XO euphoniums that I've tried in the past. Maybe they were just bad examples of the model.

Posted: **Mon May 02, 2022 4:38 pm**

If you aren't already, I'd recommend keeping an eye on the for sale section of Dave Werden's tuba-euph forum (http://www.dwerden.com/forum/forumdispl ... ted-to-Buy). Yamaha 321s and King 2280s show up there from time to time, and Dave will also post good deals he comes across on ebay.

Posted: **Mon May 02, 2022 8:05 pm**

Fujiifilm17 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 4:38 pm If you aren't already, I'd recommend keeping an eye on the for sale section of Dave Werden's tuba-euph forum (http://www.dwerden.com/forum/forumdispl ... ted-to-Buy). Yamaha 321s and King 2280s show up there from time to time, and Dave will also post good deals he comes across on ebay.

Wasn't aware of that group. Thanks!

Posted: **Tue May 03, 2022 8:03 pm**

Just listed 2280 for $700 Buy It Now or best offer.

Posted: **Thu May 05, 2022 7:10 pm**

OK, took a right turn. Local sale of a Holton Collegiate 3-valve for $150 was too good to pass up. I'll get my feet wet with this horn then move up to a 4-valver later if I really want to get serious about euphoniums. In the mean time, I have a new toy to play with.

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 7:14 am**

nice! It is always great to find a good deal!

Posted: **Fri May 06, 2022 9:05 am**

This may be all you need for casual use. I have an Olds Ambassador that served the same purpose until I bought my Conn 19I.

Posted: **Sun May 08, 2022 5:39 am**

You made a great deal with that Holton!

If I'm right, Maynard Ferguson has played a similar horn. If you ever want a 4 valve, I highly recommend King 2280. I bought one from Quinn, and play it in a jazz sextet, but I'm sure it's also great in wind band.

TromboneChat

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