TromboneChat

So, I've been playing my 1952 Conn 6H in the community band (on and off as the pandemic allowed) for over a year now. When I bought it, there was no counterweight. It felt super alien to me with all that weight up front (this is not a light slide model). I immediately bought a counterweight for it, and it's been a great player for me.

But, I was doing some practicing this evening and a thought occurred. How much difference does the counterweight make in the sound? So, I took it off...

I mean, maybe it's just because I expected a difference, but I swear the old horn suddenly became just a little more lively! Granted, the super nose heaviness is going to take some getting used to. But, I think I'm going to give it a month or three and see how it goes. It's noticably lighter overall now, and I rather like the spartan look...

Has anyone experimented with/without counterweights? Have you guys run across any writings on the subject?

Cheers!

mike

Ergonomically I just can't deal with a nose-heavy horn: I get wrist pain. Perhaps if I stood and stooped, it'd be better, but if I'm sitting, I've got to have a counterweight or two.

I tried my Elkhart 6H without a counterweight a couple times. I can't do it, my wrist gets super messed up very quickly. I also don't like how it changes the louder response.

Honestly, I'm finding that my left hand hasn't got a lot to do without the counterweight. It's holding the horn against my face, but the right hand feels like it's carrying most of the weight. It's strange feeling for sure!

I just weighed that counterweight, it's 201g... Heck, the slide weighs 255g.

No counterweight on my 50s 6H is a no-fly zone for me. Not with the 8" bell and heavy slide. It's just too heavy up front.

It might be more doable with a lightweight slide or one of the older, smaller bell examples.

Edwards has the TURD. It is a weight with a thin rod or wire connection.
I am thinking of finding some brass statue and mounting it with a couple thin wires.
The Edwards counter weight is 6 oz. To balance on the brace of the straight neck pipe it needs to be 3 or 4 times heavier. So I don't think the TURD is heavy enough.
Looking on Ebay for a Eagle or something that is brass has enough mass.
I found the horn played better when I slid the weight away from the bell to the neckpipe side. So about anything is going to affect it.

6Hs do better with the counterweight imo. I have a few from various years and they just balance and play better with the weight on. Same goes for the slide weight. I've tried a 100H and 5H slide on 6H bells and they lose focus.

When I was a student, there were still a lot of trombone players playing straight horns without a counter weight. The idea was exactly what the OP said - a more vibrant feeling when playing. I tried it, but like so many folks have said, it can really mess with your wrist and arm. Long term - I think it could really cause a tendonitis issue. The Edwards weight that was suggested might be a good solution - Christan designed it to have very little contact surface with the horn to minimize any dampening of vibrations. The Trombolizer that Joe Alessi has endorsed might be good too, but they are quite expensive.

A lot of people like a counterweight, not just because of balance, but it can also add a bit of a "solid" feel to the horn. With or without, there's probably a small difference - either a bit more flexible or a bit better core and "lock" on notes. Either way, it's not a huge difference.

Jim Scott

The difference just the harmonic brace screws make in the 396 is insane. A full counterweight is even moreso, and it's all or nothing with one.

I wonder if you just hang the weight from a string if you can minimize the effect the weight has but balance the horn. Or like that one guy with the weight on a stick out behind the horn.

I once tried horns at Shires and found a difference between solid and hollow core bracing on the tuning slide.

So, it's been a few weeks. I'm still playing the old 6H without any counterweight. Honestly, I think I'm going to leave it that way. The whole horn is lighter, I like the way it's sounding...

Who says a horn has to balance on your left hand anyway? It seems to me that most other instruments don't have this special requirement. My left hand is more comfortable with things now, and my right isn't particularly bothered with the extra few ounces of weight.

It's official, I'm calling it now. The weight stays off this horn. I reserve the right to change my mind at a later date though.

Cheers! mike

It doesn`t always have to be a Conn Counter weight.
If you know anyone with a Bach or an older 3 piece King, try that.
I seem to remember that the older Conn "Marching Men" weight was a little heavier than the more modern "Conn" one.
The XO Counter weight from the Fedchock model can`t be too heavy, because one of the selling points is that the horn is super light.

Im not convinced clamping the counterweight is the best approach to be honest. I had a Yamaha tuning slide that I added some OE Thayer hardware but I only had a decorative counterweight added to it. I was intending to make more in varying weights. Depending on how I go with my small bore setup I might experiment with whatever I end up settling on. Probably a king 3BF. I like the idea of the harmonic pillars but I really like counterweights so trying to figure out some combination that maybe does best of both worlds

I have an Olds Recording that I got without a counterweight, but the horn is heavy as it is, and with that extra torque on my wrist, I just felt better with a weight on it. Recording counterweights actually bring some money, being fairly rare, and the brace is bigger than most, so you'd have to drill out any other kind of weight.

So what I did was to steal a solder-on weight from an old Ambassador and put it on the Recording. It solders directly to the inside of the tuning bow. I haven't done any sound tests with/without the weight, but it sure does feel better, and getting it further back on the horn allows it to be a little lighter.

You could also go the Rath route. Skip the silly R, and just solder on a chunk of brass. Or melt down some old lead pipes or fishing weights on the kitchen stove and make your own!

I definitely don’t want it to be soldered. I like the Rath weight and if they were less than like $300 I might buy one to modify

Maybe I’ll dig up the pictures later. I like the threaded mounting hardware because it’s pretty easily removable while still looking aesthetic

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:28 pm ...I like the threaded mounting hardware because it’s pretty easily removable while still looking aesthetic

The threaded connections are still soldered...

Here's a counterweight Josh Landress made for me. (Shown on a 3b) I told him that I like the feel of half a Bach counterweight. He made a back out of aluminum (negligible weight) and attached it with what I believe to be ligature screws.

The blue tape is painter's tape.

I tend to move it around, take it off, put it back on, and drive myself crazy. Lately, it's almost like ankle weights, I get used to the lessened response, and then I enjoy taking it off. Head games.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:37 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:28 pm ...I like the threaded mounting hardware because it’s pretty easily removable while still looking aesthetic

The threaded connections are still soldered...

Clipboard01.jpg

I meant the weight itself, but it looks like on that one you can remove it? I don't recall having owned an Olds with that particular configuration counterweight.

pbone3b wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:25 pm Here's a counterweight Josh Landress made for me. (Shown on a 3b) I told him that I like the feel of half a Bach counterweight. He made a back out of aluminum (negligible weight) and attached it with what I believe to be ligature screws.

The blue tape is painter's tape.

I tend to move it around, take it off, put it back on, and drive myself crazy. Lately, it's almost like ankle weights, I get used to the lessened response, and then I enjoy taking it off. Head games.

That's a pretty nifty weight. That's kind of the idea I have in mind although what I'm goign to do is solder the weight(s) to the crossbrace but they'll be removable so they don't have to screw in. I'm also not convinced it will make any improvement but the way the Edwards 396 people talk about it I feel like there must be something to the weight thing.