TromboneChat

Out of curiosity, I guess the title says it all. I once had a Bach 50BL with some french made custom valves. That was a beast! Super heavy, hard to play, open as hell with an incredible fat and open sound. The valves were very innovative. Being a mix of Hagmann/TrueBore/CL2000 and the openness of Thayers I could adjust everything on them.

What do/did you have?

A few years back, someone went to John Sandhagen and asked him to build a slide trombone shaped like a saxophone (basically a Bb tenor slide jazzophone). I don't recall the exact details, but it ended up having a short slide (4-5 positions) plus a valve (minor third, maybe?).

It turned out that the original customer didn't actually intend to buy it, he just wanted to see if it could be done, so it hung around John's workshop for while. He brought it out at one of his annual Boneyard get-togethers and we were all standing around looking at it, with each one of us trying to get someone else to try to play it. After a while, I figured somebody had to do it. Not a good decision on my part.

I think there might have been a video on Facebook at one time. Hopefully it's lost by now. The last time I saw the horn was when someone brought it to SoCal Trombone Christmas; at that point, she was calling it a "trombasso".

I guess I haven't been able to get out as much as some of you...

Anyways.

For me, it was a Bach 50K3. Yup, the K valves. I'd call that one of the crazier stock trombones one could buy when it was being built. The valve feel when engaged left a little to be desired, though better than normal rotors; but it was amazing when open, and one of the best sounds I can remember hearing from myself.

If I had the funds and reason, I would have bought it on the spot.

I've currently got a Schagerl Aurora, which I think is pretty crazy. Tuning in slide, nickel slide construction, Hagmanns with gold brass valve tubing and nickel tuning slides, gold brass 9.75" 1-piece bell (all the way from the valve to the flare- one piece!!). Valve bore is also .605.

Very cool horn, plays much less strange than I would assume.

I picked up a Conn tenor in a pawnshop years ago with a very interesting trigger setup. When you threw the trigger in first position B Flat you got ---- B Flat ! I had it modified to an F valve to make it more useful. It had a marking on the press-fit tenon of "ALLQQ". The "Conn Loyalist" lists an ALLOO 23H and an ALLOO 24H as well as an ALLOO 28H that has an "E" valve. Why my tenon was stamped ALLQQ must have been the work of a myopic employee. Modeste Eugene Emile Alloo was the one time principal trombonist of The Boston Symphony Orchestra.
I found the following online :
" In 1908, shortly after he came to America, he joined The New York Symphony Orchestra as timpanist under Walter Damrosch. From 1910-1918 he performed as solo trombonist with The Boston Symphony Orchestra first under Max Fiedler and later under Dr. Karl Muck. During this time he began developing trombone instruments with the Conn Company having at least three of their models (models 22H, 23H, and 28H) referred to in his name and later being named to the Conn Hall of Fame. "
John Marcellus used it for a performance of Ravel's "Bolero" while with the NSO and the result was stunning ! I'd swear that Ravel had that horn in mind when he wrote that iconic piece ! I believe it is now in the "National Music Museum" in Vermillion, S.D. but I have not been able to find it in their extensive catalogue.
Can anyone offer a reason for this B Flat valve arrangement ?

Was it the same Bb or Bb an octave lower? It could be that the attachment was meant to simulate a contrabass trombone, but that would be an awful lot of tubing.

If the valve was in Eb, you could get the Bb in T1, and perhaps this was intended for the Miraculous Mandarin gliss (Bartok Gliss).

I haven't seen an Alloo model with an attachment before. The one listed on Conn Loyalist was a straight tenor.

"Was it the same Bb or Bb an octave lower? "
It was the SAME B FLat. Curious, huh ? The Conn Loyalist did list an ALLOO 28H with an E valve. I gave the horn to a worker in the Smithsonian Institution musical instrument division who intended to get it to The National Music Museum. Perhaps it never made the trip ? It's all still a mystery.

There were trombones with E valves 100 years ago. I have a picture of Carl Hampe (Principal of the BSO before Rochut) holding one. There is also a picture of the BSO brass section from 1921 with August Mausbach (2nd trombone) holding an E attachment trombone.

But a trombone with an Eb attachment would give you Bb in T1. This instrument could also be a way to emulate the Eb bass trombone used in European bands of the late 19th Century. On reflection, I don't think it would help with the Bartok Gliss.

I admit to having misgivings about altering the valve on that ALLOO Conn and realize that I should have more thoroughly researched the instrument before doing something so drastic, but back in the 60's it was just an old horn, similar to the attitude to an old car back then. Now, originality is highly prized in both. Hindsight is 100%, isn't it ?

2bobone wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:08 am I picked up a Conn tenor in a pawnshop years ago with a very interesting trigger setup. When you threw the trigger in first position B Flat you got ---- B Flat ! I had it modified to an F valve to make it more useful. It had a marking on the press-fit tenon of "ALLQQ". The "Conn Loyalist" lists an ALLOO 23H and an ALLOO 24H as well as an ALLOO 28H that has an "E" valve. Why my tenon was stamped ALLQQ must have been the work of a myopic employee. Modeste Eugene Emile Alloo was the one time principal trombonist of The Boston Symphony Orchestra.
I found the following online :
" In 1908, shortly after he came to America, he joined The New York Symphony Orchestra as timpanist under Walter Damrosch. From 1910-1918 he performed as solo trombonist with The Boston Symphony Orchestra first under Max Fiedler and later under Dr. Karl Muck. During this time he began developing trombone instruments with the Conn Company having at least three of their models (models 22H, 23H, and 28H) referred to in his name and later being named to the Conn Hall of Fame. "
John Marcellus used it for a performance of Ravel's "Bolero" while with the NSO and the result was stunning ! I'd swear that Ravel had that horn in mind when he wrote that iconic piece ! I believe it is now in the "National Music Museum" in Vermillion, S.D. but I have not been able to find it in their extensive catalogue.
Can anyone offer a reason for this B Flat valve arrangement ?

Perhaps the E valve was sounding a B that was extremely flat? Didn't you try playing lower notes on the valve to discover what the fundamental was?

The ALLOO Conn I mentioned was a very small bore horn and a valve seemed almost comical on such a small bore horn since the low register was far from its best feature. The B Flat on both the open horn and the valve sounded identical. If it had been the 28H listed in the Conn Loyalist it would have had an E valve and played in a different overtone series. Perhaps this truly was a personal instrument of Mr. Alloo of some experimental nature in his collaboration with C.G.Conn ? As I said, it is all still a mystery. Is anyone aware as to whether or not the 22H, 23H and 28H had tuning in the slide ? The ALLOO horn I mentioned had TIS. Perhaps that might lend a clue.

It's impossible for the open Bb trombone and the trombone with the valve engaged to have the same overtone series. The air is traveling through more tubing so it would be a lower fundamental. You can't change physics. If you played the same note both with and without the valve engaged, then it had to be a higher partial on the valve. I can play F in the staff in first position both with and without my valve engaged. It is the same note, but it is a different partial with the valve. But yeah, it can be confusing on a small bore instrument where the low range doesn't speak well. I remember picking up one of those 6 valve Cavalry trombones and trying to figure out how to play a scale on it. It was difficult. I think what you had was a trombone with an E attachment. I supposed Conn could have made one with an Eb attachment, but that would be something very rare that I've never seen.

I absolutely agree that the open trombone and the trombone with the valve engaged would have different overtone series despite the fact that they are playing the same pitch. During my ownership of the horn there were more than a handful of trombonists who gave it a try. They all had the same opinion as mine in that it was a B Flat valve. I performed and recorded in various instrumental groups at The Smithsonian over the years on such diverse instruments as Saxhorns, ophicleide and recorders. They all had their quirks but could eventually be mastered. The ALLOO Conn was definitely one of the strangest instruments I've encountered and certainly fits the description of "The Most Crazy Trombone I've Ever Played" !

The craziest, you ask?

When I was a junior in college, Peter Schickele came through town to do a PDQ Bach concert; as I was a trombone player who also played bassoon, I was recruited to play the tromboon solos in the oratorio, "The Seasonings."

The official-issue PDQ Bach tromboon arrived a week aforehand. It was a very basic beginner band tenor trombone with a bassoon bocal to insert where the mouthpiece would go and a reed. To play the reed on the bocal you have to angle the horn like a bassoon, so the slide is extending behind you, to the right of your chair.

Very hard to get that device to speak! I spent many hours that week making sure I could land my notes on time and on pitch. (Half of comedy is timing, they say.)

Peter Schickele's manager said I was the best tromboon player they had encountered in several years of touring.

And that, kids... was my brush with greatness.

An odd, very unauthentic bass sackbut in F with a valve to Eb. It was not just the craziest trombone I've ever played - it was also the worst!

For me, it was that interesting Bass trombone Dillon music with two OE Thayer valves. I think it was a Bach, but the first valve was F and the second was D and wrapped around the tuning slide. I think that was one that later got stolen from the person who bought it.

I had the pleasure of playing Phil Teele’s Williams 10 at a local music store. I think the history was cooler than the actual instrument. If I remember correctly the serial was something like 13

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:58 pm The craziest, you ask?

When I was a junior in college, Peter Schickele came through town to do a PDQ Bach concert; as I was a trombone player who also played bassoon, I was recruited to play the tromboon solos in the oratorio, "The Seasonings."...

Great story!

Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:32 pm An odd, very unauthentic bass sackbut in F with a valve to Eb. It was not just the craziest trombone I've ever played - it was also the worst!

Played a few notes on a copy of the Oller contrabass sackbut, which is about 9 feet tall and has a full double-length slide with a 2-foot+ handle. One can't even remove the slide to empty it without someone's help...just an insane instrument.

Otherwise of my own horns, my ophicleide is probably the weirdest, and craziest, and also one of the most fun instruments to play, although it obviously doesn't quite qualify for the original question.

I got invited to sit in on a unrehearsed "new music" thing. The conductor asked we take our instruments apart and see what we could come up with. I played the mouthpiece alone, small shank fitted in the end of a large shank, the slide with and without the mouthpiece (without was HARD!) and the bell section with F attachment with the mouthpiece in the slide receiver. The conductor just pointed at who he wanted to play and gave hand signals on tempos, volume, and pitch. He would get one instrumentalist going and add and subtract them as he felt was right. I flutter tongued, trilled the slide with the water key, hummed while I played which got some very unusual sounds, and just used my imagination. Very strange but fun gig. This was the 70s, so...

I've always wanted to play an odd-ball instrument. I tend to like things that are just a step or two off the beaten path. Keeps things interesting.

I can't say that I've played a "crazy" trombone apart from my 4-valve Viennese horns- but they aren't that crazy or rare apart from having a very strong Steampunk vibe.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:32 pm I got invited to sit in on a unrehearsed "new music" thing. The conductor asked we take our instruments apart and see what we could come up with. I played the mouthpiece alone, small shank fitted in the end of a large shank, the slide with and without the mouthpiece (without was HARD!) and the bell section with F attachment with the mouthpiece in the slide receiver. The conductor just pointed at who he wanted to play and gave hand signals on tempos, volume, and pitch. He would get one instrumentalist going and add and subtract them as he felt was right. I flutter tongued, trilled the slide with the water key, hummed while I played which got some very unusual sounds, and just used my imagination. Very strange but fun gig. This was the 70s, so...

I wonder if that was the same "arrangement" I played back in the mid 80's one time? The conductor swung on stage on a rope like Tarzan, and we more or less made up things as you described. I can't remember what it was called, but I do remember that it was an actual "written" piece by a composer. It was fun, truth be told. It's nice to break form and do something experimental once in a while.

[/quote]

I wonder if that was the same "arrangement" I played back in the mid 80's one time? The conductor swung on stage on a rope like Tarzan, and we more or less made up things as you described. I can't remember what it was called, but I do remember that it was an actual "written" piece by a composer. It was fun, truth be told. It's nice to break form and do something experimental once in a while.
[/quote]

The conductor had no firm idea who was going to show up and with what. Was there a score he went by? I can't be sure. I thought hel improvised it all on the spot. He pointed, you played. We had to interpret his hand signals on volume, tempo, etc. and cut-offs. Sometimes it was one player, sometimes several at once. I will state emphatically that no Tarzan entrance was involved ! A fun and unique experience I remember fondly 45+ years later.

Interesting. From my hazy memory from 35-something years ago, I seem to recall that there was a score of sorts for the conductor, nothing for us players. I think it was more of a set of loose guidelines rather than any particular series of notes or chord progressions. Maybe it was something different than what you did, but it seems to me to be of the same ideas/concepts. It was, after all, a very long time ago.

Aleatorism - a somewhat short-lived fad (~1960s-1970s?) that seems to have faded away.
Can't say that I miss it.

Aleatorism.... yes, I think that's the origin of those "compositions". It would make sense given the time frames and such.

"random elements are introduced by the performer according to notation." so says the internet. "it consists of a deliberately vague notation, e.g. an irregular wavy line on a staff instead of specific sounds. Another method is to build compositions from short components, the order of which is chosen randomly during the performance of the work (e.g. Klavierstück XI Stockhausen )."

I'm sure now that was the part of the music concept that I performed way back in the long ago times.

Thanks for finding this!

Ozzlefinch wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:24 pm Aleatorism....

I'm sure now that was the part of the music concept that I performed way back in the long ago times.

Thanks for finding this!

Actually more than "finding" it - as a player in the 70s ("long ago times"), I was [a small] part of it!
No regrets, but also no real fond memories either.

The finale concert at ITF 2017 (Redlands, CA) included a performance of an aleatoric work called RedBoneLands "for large (20 to 200+) trombone ensemble and audience" by Stuart Dempster. Not my kind of thing, but a lot of people seemed to enjoy it.

Ozzlefinch wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:24 pm Aleatorism.... yes, I think that's the origin of those "compositions". It would make sense given the time frames and such.

It can be very effective in small doses, with carefully chosen fragments and sensitive players. The most effective uses I've participated in are found in Francis McBeth's Of Sailors and Whales (Movement V, The Great White Whale) and in the middle (just prior to the recap/coda) of Shine as the Light (a brass band piece) by Peter Graham.

In the McBeth, the flutes and clarinets mimic sea birds in a feeding frenzy. I've seen a few of those pile-ups over sardine/anchovy shoals, and McBeth captured it well. I'm not sure what the cornets, flugel, and chimes are supposed to be illustrating in the Graham, but it works very well, too.

When handled poorly by the composer, the piece becomes just another entry on my lifetime list.

Craziest trombone I've had a chance to play was an old (early 1900's) Besson that had both a valve section (3 valves ala valve trombone) and a slide. An instrument repair friend of mine had it in his shop for a cleaning/repair. Very much like the Holton superbone created for Maynard Ferguson in the 1970's...

+1 for the ophicleide, though it doesn't really count here. But a total delight.

Of ostensibly 'normal' instruments, Besson 10-10.

.523, made up of parts from their G basses, and with a whole pile of features that don't normally coincide.

The catalog boasted of 'uniquely proportioned bell and slide sections', and they weren't kidding. The neckpipe has a massive - and visibly asymmetrical - taper, the slide is extra long, and the whole instrument is built very sharp (inc springs in the barrels). The bell is a full 12" from the mpc receiver, with 3rd position in tune at 440 at the bell with the TS closed.

Very light one-piece bell, combined with an incredibly heavy NS narrow slide (the catalog described it as 'ultra light-weight', which is true, compared to an osmium slide, or a pregnant zebra). Massive sound, with the potential for serious volume. Intonation iffy - think King tendencies, except worse. But not totally unmanageable, and surprisingly easy up top... some weird responses in the 4th-8th partials, but a terrific high E... Silly, but very likeable.

I've never played an Ophicleide, but I have played a Quinticlave (a fifth higher than a standard ophicleide). I've also played over-the-shoulder horns. The tenor ones generally play the trombone range.

The oddest TROMBONE I have is a G bass (not very odd, but intriguingly difficult to play).

Not a trombone, but this just showed up on Reverb:

https://reverb.com/item/56333604-jazzop ... t=56333604

"Not a trombone, but this just showed up on Reverb" :

Wasn't there an alien playing one of these in Star Wars with "Sy Snootles & The Rebo Band" ?

If you interpret "crazy" as awesome, the craziest horn I've ever played was the original Edwards 396A prototype. That horn was insane. So easy to play. The harmonic brace didn't even have threaded holes yet!

It was my first trip to Edwards as a college sophomore and it blew my mind. I wish I could play it now with more mature ears and technique. I've been hooked on Edwards since then and currently play a 396AR.

My Amati G bass

An early 20th century czech instrument marketed for Sears and Roebuck. Nickel plated. The TOP of the tuning slide was about .500" bore, slide was roughly .409". Trully a classical trombone bore profile, with a very small.nickel silver mouthpiece. It was sackbutt/ classical trombone like.

Benn

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:20 am I've currently got a Schagerl Aurora, which I think is pretty crazy. Tuning in slide, nickel slide construction, Hagmanns with gold brass valve tubing and nickel tuning slides, gold brass 9.75" 1-piece bell (all the way from the valve to the flare- one piece!!). Valve bore is also .605.

Very cool horn, plays much less strange than I would assume.

The valve wrap on this looks so sweet.

King 8B Silversonic. I played on it for about 5 min and that was enough. Seemed to weigh as much as a steam radiator and the poor left hand ergonomics were not King-like at all. Huge and heavy sterling bell felt dead. Very little wear for its age, and small wonder.

adryalm wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:56 am

The valve wrap on this looks so sweet.

Doesn't it?? Very retro-future.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:20 am I've currently got a Schagerl Aurora, which I think is pretty crazy. Tuning in slide, nickel slide construction, Hagmanns with gold brass valve tubing and nickel tuning slides, gold brass 9.75" 1-piece bell (all the way from the valve to the flare- one piece!!). Valve bore is also .605.

Very cool horn, plays much less strange than I would assume.

Seriously? The bell, stem, and j-bend are all one piece?!? That is insane!!! That must be one very long piece of sheet brass and some careful bending and shaping to produce that. Wouldn’t they need a lathe with a very wide space to accommodate the long j-bend?

I remember the Wiener Posaunenquartette play (or played) these horns on several albums, and they sound GREAT!

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:11 pm

Seriously? The bell, stem, and j-bend are all one piece?!? That is insane!!! That must be one very long piece of sheet brass and some careful bending and shaping to produce that. Wouldn’t they need a lathe with a very wide space to accommodate the long j-bend?

I remember the Wiener Posaunenquartette play (or played) these horns on several albums, and they sound GREAT!

That's what I can see, and also had it confirmed by a Schagerl dealer... could still be wrong about it but I don't see a single spot it would be brazed together on that axis. "like a trumpet" was the wording!

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:11 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:20 am I've currently got a Schagerl Aurora, which I think is pretty crazy. Tuning in slide, nickel slide construction, Hagmanns with gold brass valve tubing and nickel tuning slides, gold brass 9.75" 1-piece bell (all the way from the valve to the flare- one piece!!). Valve bore is also .605.

Very cool horn, plays much less strange than I would assume.

Seriously? The bell, stem, and j-bend are all one piece?!? That is insane!!! That must be one very long piece of sheet brass and some careful bending and shaping to produce that. Wouldn’t they need a lathe with a very wide space to accommodate the long j-bend?

I remember the Wiener Posaunenquartette play (or played) these horns on several albums, and they sound GREAT!

I would assume they do everything they need to do on the lathe before they make the bend!

The craziest trombone I've played is of the brand E.A. Couturier. It is named "Cuoturier Conical bore trombone" but it has tuning in bell so the conical stuff is the slide
It has a .465/ 490 bore really weird slide which means the lower slide is conical all the way. It works because half the moving slide is an outer slide with a conical inner slide and the other half runs inside of the outer slide from the bottom. It means that the outer slide of that part is fixated. It is completely impossible to play horizontally, but if you stand on a chair and point the horn steep down you could play with some success. The horn is made in the 1920-ies and is in great shape because nobody has been able to make music with it. I'm now thinking of bringing it to a tech and see if something can be done to make that slide better. It could be a good subject at a boring rehearsal.

The next crazy horn is a Martin bass trombone from the 1950-ties. On the bell it says "The Martin" and it is a small .536 bore 9" bell single trigger bass that someone put an extra independent valve on so it has been equipped with a second trigger in D. I have used it as a bass on a gig and this works as long as it is not one of those heavy bass parts where the bass is in a section itself. I have also used the horn as a large tenor in a trombone quartet with Bach 5-ish mouthpiece and on second part and solo in a big band with a Bach 11C-isch tenor mouthpiece, that works too. When I bought the horn I remember I saw a video made by Massimo Pirone with the horn. Maybe it was from him I bought it? At that time I had not heard of him as a player. Since I bought the horn I have been searching for the model "The Martin" on Internet and the name that comes up with Martin basses is "Magma", but there is no such name on my horn. That's two of the rarest horns I've played and also the weirdest finds I've done.

The third crazy horn is a Conn 60h "Preacher" model from the 1920-ies. It is in C but can be tuned to Bb if you turn a valve manually. I think the horn plays best in C and it could then be used in place of an Alto. It is a .458 bore with 6.5 " bell and together with its length it then gives a much lighter and brighter sound compared to a small Bb tenor. It is not like the modern Yamaha C/Bb "chlidren" trombone with dual bore .500/.525 where the trigger is reversed and the horn is made to be used in Bb. No, the "Preacher" model is a true C trombone made to be played in C. Up to this time I have only practiced the "Preacher" horn at home.

/Tom

adryalm wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:56 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:20 am

The valve wrap on this looks so sweet.

Streamline Moderne, I would call it

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:20 pm

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:11 pm

Seriously? The bell, stem, and j-bend are all one piece?!? That is insane!!! That must be one very long piece of sheet brass and some careful bending and shaping to produce that. Wouldn’t they need a lathe with a very wide space to accommodate the long j-bend?

I remember the Wiener Posaunenquartette play (or played) these horns on several albums, and they sound GREAT!

That's what I can see, and also had it confirmed by a Schagerl dealer... could still be wrong about it but I don't see a single spot it would be brazed together on that axis. "like a trumpet" was the wording!

Those are all one piece and they are nutty horns honestly. They play and sound great, much more athletic than your typical TIS bass. Robert Schagerl, who is behind the design work at Schagerl, is really proud on the design and has a huge workshop.

Edit: I wish they still came with Hagmann valves, the new rotor is really good, but I liked the Hagmann more.

asmith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:45 am

Those are all one piece and they are nutty horns honestly. They play and sound great, much more athletic than your typical TIS bass. Robert Schagerl, who is behind the design work at Schagerl, is really proud on the design and has a huge workshop.

Edit: I wish they still came with Hagmann valves, the new rotor is really good, but I liked the Hagmann more.

Well, if you really want one... it's always for sale

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:20 am I've currently got a Schagerl Aurora, which I think is pretty crazy. Tuning in slide, nickel slide construction, Hagmanns with gold brass valve tubing and nickel tuning slides, gold brass 9.75" 1-piece bell (all the way from the valve to the flare- one piece!!). Valve bore is also .605.

Very cool horn, plays much less strange than I would assume.

It looks like the first valve could be pulled a lot with that design. Can it be pulled to Eb? It would be nice to have a single bass with the valve in Eb sometimes.

/Tom

For a brief misguided moment I owned a Russian-made copy of the Conn 88H called the "St Petersburg".
Sturdy but very unrefined construction, bad slide, no lacquer, who knows what for valve compression. Great tuning slides
Dirt cheap with a great tone and response in all registers! Mechanically not a keeper so I returned it to the dealer (I was living in Germany at the time) St Petersburg brand also made tubas and bass trombones but on purely German templates, unlike the tenor trb.

Just got back from ITF so here are the "craziest" horns I've ever played:

1. Shires but with King 5B bell in sterling silver with Thayer, nickel slide, and newly engraved up the entire stem. Pretty cool, not sure where it ended up but I hope it's getting played.

2. Adams with a sterling silver bell, open flow valve, copper tuning slide. Considering buying it still...

3. Thein German tenor with the snakes etc. very cool horn but not for me and likely not for any of the ensembles with which I normally play.

honorable mention: butler bass and tenors. I actually liked them a lot. Would be interested to hear them in a section.