TromboneChat

I realize this is a very editorialized title, but...I challenge you to find a cooler soprano trombone than this!











This is a spectacularly cool German-style soprano trombone with a valve and a bell kranz, which looks to be handmade. As if that wasn't cool enough, the rotor has an old-school leather strap instead of a paddle. As if THAT wasn't cool enough, the rotor comes with FOUR (!) different slides, giving you the choice of tuning the valve to A, Ab, G, or F.

To me, it screams early Thein. But I don't know for sure, because it has no maker's mark anywhere. It only has one marking, this "1" on the mouthpiece receiver.



Bell is totally unmarked:



Anyway, how does it play?

Well, I don't really have a suitable mouthpiece for it yet. It came with a very shallow Selmer trumpet mouthpiece that's entirely unsuitable. My various trumpet mouthpieces aren't really ideal for it either, so right now I'm using my Kelly 6V marching mellophone mouthpiece. It's a very temporary solution, but even so it plays very well! It has no real 7th position so the valve is really nice to have. I messed with all four valve tunings and I think I'll be leaving it in G for the most part. Best of all, I think even with this plastic mouthpiece for a different instrument, it has a real trombone sound rather than just sounding like a trumpet. I think it will get even better once I get a suitable mouthpiece. I've been posting about the best mouthpieces for a soprano trombone for years now, so I now I get to put that to the test!

Here's a Google Drive link to a short clip I recorded. | Here's a second clip. I've never owned a soprano trombone before and these are some of my first notes on the instrument, so intonation is all over the place. But I think you can get a decent idea of what it sounds like.

Best of all, I got a SCREAMING deal on it (much less than half the cost of a new, boring, Miraphone 63). Now I just need to come across an uber-cool alto to pair it with!

Incredibly cool. And a case for it!

It looks very similar in construction to my contra... which is also unmarked. The thot plickens!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:47 pm It looks very similar in construction to my contra... which is also unmarked. The thot plickens!

They're actually the same instrument, it's just forced perspective.

I have a Jupiter Soprano trombone which came with a 7C trumpet mouthpiece so it sounds like a trumpet. To get a better, more trombone-like sound, I use a Yamaha flugel horn mouthpiece. You might have to experiment with flugel mouthpieces as there are different shank sizes, mine had to be shortened by a couple of millimetres.

Cheers

Stewbones43

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 3:29 am I have a Jupiter Soprano trombone which came with a 7C trumpet mouthpiece so it sounds like a trumpet. To get a better, more trombone-like sound, I use a Yamaha flugel horn mouthpiece. You might have to experiment with flugel mouthpieces as there are different shank sizes, mine had to be shortened by a couple of millimetres.

Cheers

Stewbones43

I've done the same in the past. Too me it is a bit heavy to play a flugelhorn mouthpiece in something that is built like a trumpet.There is a crossover mouthpiece (trombone mouthpiece rim with trumpet mouthpiece cup) that can make a transmission easier for a tromboneplayer. It is the model of Wycliffe Gordon, but that too gets a limited height and also sounds like a trumpet.

I've since bought a trumpet, cornet, flugel and also a french horn. I now think the soprano works best with a trumpet mouthpiece for ease. For some reason the profile of the flugelhorn mouthpiece is to much work and I can not play past high g over the system. I would like at least the c above. I'm still searching a mouthpiece that fits a soprano trombone and also gives a darker sound like the sound I get with a flugelhorn mouthpiece, but to me it is not doable it needs to be easier to play the soprano or else I have no stamina.

To the OP: You've got a real cool instrument.

/Tom

That is awesome'

I haven't played on my soprano very much since I acquired it last year... but I found the Monette style to work well for me on trumpet and, indeed, also on the soprano. I have a Kanstul B1.5M... or at least I think... that's pretty deep and has a big throat and gives me more of a "trombone" sound on it than other shallower pieces. Naturally, I also had the rim replaced with Lexan rim too. In my case a copy of a Monette 2.

Don't worry everyone. I have strong opinions on the ideal soprano trombone mouthpieces and will surely end up recording comparisons once I get them.

When all is said and done, I will probably end up with a Bach 9AT alto trumpet mouthpiece, a Josef Klier German flugelhorn mouthpiece, and a bowl cup alto horn mouthpiece. The hunt begins!

I use a 5A pn my Boosey Soprano, fyi. Not suggesting anything Finetales, I am very Jealous of that horn. I have to see Max Next week, I will show him.pictures and ask about it.

Benn

octavposaune wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:44 pmI have to see Max Next week, I will show him.pictures and ask about it.

Benn

I E-mailed Thein about it via their website contact form, but I'm sure you'll get a more thorough response direct from the source!

Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 1:23 pm When all is said and done, I will probably end up with a Bach 9AT alto trumpet mouthpiece, a Josef Klier German flugelhorn mouthpiece, and a bowl cup alto horn mouthpiece. The hunt begins!

FWIW a Josef Klier flugelhorn mouthpiece was where the search ended for me when it came to a mouthpiece for my Jupiter soprano (and rotary Flugelhorn).

Cool instrument btw., would be awesome to use on the top part in Posaunenchor.

I think your title is entirely accurate.

It's not unlikely that Larry Minnick may have made one like that at some time. But it would have his name on it, I'm not suggesting he made this one.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:54 pm It's not unlikely that Larry Minnick may have made one like that at some time. But it would have his name on it, I'm not suggesting he made this one.

Yup... like this one (not mine, I just saved the pics):
Cheers,
Andy

A (British) brass band cornet mouthpiece on a (modified) trumpet shank might be deep enough... Or maybe one of those "trumpet-flugelhorn" hybrid pieces. Sounds like you have some ideas built up though.

I can't argue about that being the sweetest soprano bone I've seen.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:42 pmYup... like this one (not mine, I just saved the pics):
mincksoprano_2.jpg

minicksoprano_6.jpg

I remember seeing pictures of a Minick soprano like that (maybe those exact pictures?) YEARS ago! Could never find them again after that.

I remember reading, along with the pictures, that Minick made a few of them for some LA studio trumpet players at the time, who used them on a few pop sessions. Wish I remembered anything more than that.

I took delivery of the aforementioned Bach 9AT alto trumpet mouthpiece today and spent a little time trying it with the soprano trombone.

Here's some clips from my experiments from the backseat of my car:

Clip 1: playing part of the David Concertino up an octave

Clip 2: more noodling

Clip 3: brief mouthpiece comparison (in order: Bach 9AT, Kelly 6V mellophone mouthpiece, Hammond 1Mv trumpet mouthpiece, Bach 9AT again)

My 9AT conclusions:

The good: the sound is awesome. Sounds nearly as full as an alto trombone down low. I can also see why Posaunenchor uses flugels on top - the sound definitely has that color.

The bad: playing high is a lot of work. I honestly feel like I can play G5 easier on my 3B than on the soprano with 9AT. Also, intonation is noticeably more difficult than with a smaller mouthpiece (as you probably heard). It turns out the 9AT has a slightly oversized shank, so it sticks out pretty far. That combined with being large and deep means that with the tuning bit all the way in some notes (notably low Bb) are still flat.

My conclusion is that, while the 9AT makes the soprano trombone sound great, it is probably too big for the instrument. I will definitely still keep the mouthpiece around, as it would be perfect for 3rd soprano trombone (???). But for general use, I think a Schilke 24 or 20D2d trumpet mouthpiece is the next step. I'd really like to try a Josef Klier German flugelhorn mouthpiece, but the only retailers I've found for them don't sell them in the sizes I would want.

You could probably get Bob Reeves to cut down your 9AT shank.

True, but I feel like the shank is only part of the problem. It just feels like the mouthpiece is too big for the instrument, like playing an alto with a 5G or something. Big dark sound but at the cost of playability.

Hi Finetales,

I just showed Max your pictures. He said its a finely made instrument but definitely not a Thein. He is very certain it was an exam instrument. Meaning apprentices that are graduating to something akin to a Journeyman have to built a horn from scratch and these instruments are usually unsigned.

octavposaune wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:16 pm Hi Finetales,

I just showed Max your pictures. He said its a finely made instrument but definitely not a Thein. He is very certain it was an exam instrument. Meaning apprentices that are graduating to something akin to a Journeyman have to built a horn from scratch and these instruments are usually unsigned.

Very interesting! This is quite the instrument to make for that purpose. I wonder if these exam instruments are often something unique like this, or more conventional instruments.

I have to wonder if my unmarked contra is similar.

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:08 pm I'd really like to try a Josef Klier German flugelhorn mouthpiece, but the only retailers I've found for them don't sell them in the sizes I would want.

Have you tried FMB? They ship worldwide and carry the whole Klier line (and Bruno Tilz, if you wanna get even further into German obscuranta)... had good experiences with them tracking down some tuba parts.

https://www.fmb-direkt.de/fluegelhorn-m ... &n=12&s=18

FMB looks perfect. Thank you!

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:35 pm

octavposaune wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:16 pm Hi Finetales,

I just showed Max your pictures. He said its a finely made instrument but definitely not a Thein. He is very certain it was an exam instrument. Meaning apprentices that are graduating to something akin to a Journeyman have to built a horn from scratch and these instruments are usually unsigned.

Very interesting! This is quite the instrument to make for that purpose. I wonder if these exam instruments are often something unique like this, or more conventional instruments.

Depends on the apprentice, and what kind of workshop they apprenticed at, I would guess. Just as performance majors' final recitals vary from run-of-the mill programmes with standard pieces solo with piano to crazy concept shows with new music premieres or pieces with full orchestras assembled by the student.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:26 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:08 pm I'd really like to try a Josef Klier German flugelhorn mouthpiece, but the only retailers I've found for them don't sell them in the sizes I would want.

Have you tried FMB? They ship worldwide and carry the whole Klier line (and Bruno Tilz, if you wanna get even further into German obscuranta)... had good experiences with them tracking down some tuba parts.

https://www.fmb-direkt.de/fluegelhorn-m ... &n=12&s=18

You probably know this already but just in case:

The JK Flugelhorn pieces come in three shaft sizes, German (10mm) as standard, Optional Yamaha (9.6mm) or American (9.3mm).

Especially if you’re ordering internationally and potentially dealing with taxes, you might like to check which shaft size you need before ordering, if you haven’t already.

Finetales wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:35 pm

octavposaune wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:16 pm Hi Finetales,

I just showed Max your pictures. He said its a finely made instrument but definitely not a Thein. He is very certain it was an exam instrument. Meaning apprentices that are graduating to something akin to a Journeyman have to built a horn from scratch and these instruments are usually unsigned.

Very interesting! This is quite the instrument to make for that purpose. I wonder if these exam instruments are often something unique like this, or more conventional instruments.

The German apprentice and exam instruments can sometimes be phenomenal instruments. It would make sense that an enthusiastic up-and-coming instrument maker wishing to become a "Meister" would put their best effort and utmost care into an exam instrument.

When I visited a music store in Munich in 1999, there was a used oval baritone with five rotary valves for sale. Since it was unmarked, I asked about the maker. The store owner claimed that it was an exam instrument made by an apprentice working for Hermann Ganter. It was an exceptional instrument and I really should have bought it. Now, it is just another story in the chapter of.....the ones that got away.