TromboneChat

I am starting a more up to date version of ALTO TROMBONE instrument threads.

My goal is to hear and spread information on what alto trombones have worked for you, which you didn't like and any other details you've found.

Personally, i've been drawn to the vintage European altos due to their sound, and i've enjoyed the times i've tried the Courtois Prestige. I've heard Bach altos haven't worked well for many who've tried them, so i've stayed away from them.

What has been your experience with different alto trombones?

I started out on a 39. Gives are fairly unique sound (which makes sense it's almost an outlier in terms of size). I couldn't get used to the intonation, which I found to be much better even on a cheaper JinBao w/ the "updated" leadpipes that HornGuy used to sell from Stauffer Brass.

I played a Conn 36H for awhile (Conrad Herwig's former 36H, actually, which he played on the Eddie Palmeri 's album Ritmo Caliente). I had the leadpipe pulled and replaced with a Shires 485 leadpipe that was flared out to match the .491 bore size. I kind of wish I hadn't sold that one but to this day I've only played alto professionally a handful of times so it wasn't really particularly useful for me. I had purchased it because it was in Bb/Eb so I could play it like a tenor but even given that it was in Bb primarily, it still sounded like an alto, so I couldn't really use it in a tenor section for the types of things that I wanted to use it for. (I wanted a super light, compact, small-bore tenor essentially).

I'm on the now out-of-production Wessex 525/547 alto that I really like. Blends really well with a section that hasn't "downsized" but still sounds very distinctly like an alto. Unsurprisingly, it wasn't assembled very well (the bell brace had a ton of tension on it when my tech took it apart). So I'm having that rebuilt... it's a backburner project for me since I don't really have much of a need for alto at the moment.

Biggest thing that I think I've experienced across all altos is the leadpipe choice can be even more drastic on alto than on tenor because the receivers can be slightly different. I suspect had I had Doug's "alto" shank when I learned on the 39, it may have been less quirky than the JinBao, which had a "standard" receiver. Indeed, the Wessex I have now and the Conn 36 all have in common that they had a "standard" tenor receiver when I enjoyed them the most.

The Thein alto trombones I've tried have been incredible, especially the design with the garland on the bell. I hear great things about Shires altos as well, though I don't have personal experience.

I play on a Yamaha alto currently, and that was a more consistent player than the Bachs and Conns that I tried. I also tend to use a very very small mouthpiece - something in the Bach 22-24 range (it's a custom design with no listed size.) I've personally found that mouthpieces on the very small end of the spectrum tend to produce a true alto sound, though I also understand why some people like to keep the same rim size as tenor.

Started on a Courtois previous owned by Eric Carlson. My teacher at undergrad pretty much said “buy this horn.” Great sound, but it seemed flat. I could never quite feel comfortable getting it up to pitch. Don’t know the specs.

Next was a Shires with a yellow bell, 485-495 TIS slide, and Bb valve. Shires went bankrupt the day after I wrote the check. Very nice sound but the high range was very difficult to dial in. 7th position was good. Felt like the TIS did nothing and there were elements of the build that didn’t look right. I know everyone loves these horns so I think me not liking it was down to not liking TIS and maybe some funky tension in the horn. Not totally sure.

I traded the Shires for a Thein Old German Style. 508 bore with no valve, slide springs, and highly ornamented with snakes and kranz. Super long leadpipe (but not the one that changes the upper bore completely). This horn is magic. The German proportions makes the high range so much more comfortable. High Db is perfect in 1st and the Eb and F above feel super stable and reliable/consistent. Every partial feels the same in terms of slotting. G partial is sharp in 1st, then fine in 2nd, flat in 3rd (not unusual for alto). The combination of the super light construction with small bell and large bore make for a great alto sound that feels approachable and works with the large mouthpieces I prefer. 7th position is scary. I wish I had a 2nd tuning slide with a Bb valve built in. I’d like to ask Thein if they can do this but I’m afraid of the cost…

I’ve used a million different mouthpieces in ever size imaginable. All three of these horns seemed to respond well to Doug Elliott’s mouthpieces that go in a little deeper.

B&S model Erde prototype: This is my favorite alto I've ever played. It was Carl Lenthe's idea for a modern .547" orchestral alto that properly matches a modern .547 tenor and .562 bass, both in sound and projection. Carl gave a masterclass where he played Brahms excerpts on it with a section (on their modern large bore instruments) and it was an incredible sound. Still unmistakably an alto sound (just like a large bore tenor is still unmistakably a tenor), but the perfect match for the modern tenor and bass. The blend was electric. As Carl's student I also spent a lot of time on the horn myself and it was a fabulous instrument. Although designed primarily for the orchestra, it was also a fine soloist's instrument. So easy to play and color. I could keep waxing poetic about it, but alas B&S apparently pulled the plug just before production was to begin.

Carl received both the original unlacquered prototype and a lacquered pre-production model during the years I studied with him, and they were both not only great instruments but frequently used by many IU trombone majors. More recently Carl put both examples up for sale along with a flock of other instruments, and I immediately reached out but the asking price was far out of my budget. Sadly I don't know if I'll ever have another opportunity to own one of the two that exist, but hopefully if I ever do I have the dough!

Anyway, as the Erde didn't reach production, I would imagine a Pfretzschner is the closest thing. I've never played one of those, but it seems like the same idea.

Wessex PE523: This one did reach production! However, only briefly. I tried one extensively at ATW one year and it played 90% as good as the Shires and Rath altos that were there, for a tiny fraction of the cost ($700!). It was a .525-.547" dual bore as Matt K mentioned, and I loved it. In my opinion that alto was the best thing (at least, non-tuba thing) that Wessex ever made, but they stopped making it before I had a chance to buy one.

If anyone has one they'd like to sell, let me know. I'll buy it.

Shires and Rath: I tried both of these back-to-back, and I have to be honest: they felt exactly the same. It honestly felt like I played one, and then picked up another example of the same instrument. They were specced similarly (all yellow), but I didn't expect them to feel identical. That being said, the instrument that they both felt like was one beautiful instrument. Easy to play with a great sound. No magic that set my world on fire, but it was such a joy to play both of them. If I had the dough, they would definitely be on my list.

Laetzsch: The Laetzsch I tried was a traditional German model, and it had that magic that set my world on fire that the Shires and Rath lacked. Just the most beautiful alto sound of all time, and effortless to play as well. As a solo instrument or with an orchestra section who downsized to match the alto, this would be my first choice. What I REALLY want is the Laetzsch alto in F, with C valve. If I won the lottery, that's the first alto I would buy.

Conn 36H: Very point and shoot, easy to play. A friend who heard me try it said it was his favorite alto sound he'd heard from me. To be honest, it didn't feel like that from my end and I was surprised at his verdict, but I can't argue with feedback from the side of the bell that matters. Definitely a good instrument, and easy to come to from tenor.

Yamaha: I didn't try this one for very long. It was fine.

Jin Bao Slokar clone: I owned a nickel-plated one of these for a while to learn alto on. Obviously it wasn't amazing, but it was totally adequate. I used it on a few gigs and orchestral rep classes, and it did everything just fine. The only real issues were that it was ultra flimsy, and the 2nd-partial Eb was way sharp. I had to play it halfway to 2nd position! But intonation wasn't bad otherwise, and the sound wasn't amazing but a very usable alto sound. I played principal on the Schubert Unfinished on it and had no complaints.

I purchased a Bach 39 that was priced down to reduce inventory, right after I played Ornithology on it. It does not seem to have intonation issues and small shank Bach mouthpieces seem to fit the receiver. This is not intended as a rebuttal to Matt K’s experience: I once saw a brand new Bach bass trombone that had to have an intonation issue fixed before it could be delivered to the customer. My favorite alto trombone is the one in the closet.

I have a JP Rath I bought from NeoBri a few years ago. Seems to play pretty well. I note the words “Leadpipe designed by Rath” are inscribed on the slide. Rath knows what they’re doing. The slide is pretty good. I can’t comment too much on intonation. Pretty good value at about $1K new I think.

The mouthpiece search is ongoing. I’m using a Bach 5 (not 5G) and a DE LT101 E4* which seem more pleasing to my ear than, say, the Yam 48A. On tenor I play similar sized mouthpieces.

Before starting Grad work in Performance back in the Mid 1980`s I purchased a Yamaha Alto.
Because being a Performance major, I should know how to play the Alto Trombone..
I loved the Literature but hated the Instrument. I was more than likely not ready for the Alto.
Sold it right after Graduation.
Years later, I believe, early 2000`s I went to the ITA conference at Eastman and tried all the Altos.
Still didn`t like the Yamahas. The horn that worked amazingly well for me was The Alto by Weril
.500 bore, tuning in the slide, gold brass bell and feels like a Tenor in my hands.
I picked one up for $700 brand new and never looked back
I really love this horn .

For me, I've tried the Bach 39, Rath Eb/Bb variations (red/yellow), Yamaha, Conn 36H, Courtois, M&W, and Shires (all flavors except the new Alessi one).

For me, the Conn 36H plays the best, has the sound and projection I personally am looking for, plays in tune**, and beats the others out by a long way.

I needed to cut the tuning legs 3/8" and it became the best alto.

** On tuning, all altos seem to be very mouthpiece sensitive and there are not very many good, modern alto mouthpieces on the market. Most players choose a mouthpiece that is far too deep and then believe that their actual instrument itself sounds like a tenor. No, the tenor mouthpiece makes it sound that way. The partials go out of whack if the mouthpiece doesn't insert the correct depth, or if the backbore is a mismatch. The alto is especially susceptible to octaves being stretched or compressed by means of the cylindrical section in the throat of the mouthpiece. The thing to get right is the mouthpiece.

I had a Bach 39 that I bought from Mark Lawrence many years ago. The sound was great but the slide was too short.

Now I have a Rath, which plays well but the (tis) slide seems to hang and stick in seventh position. It’s also a bit on the heavy side.

Ultimately, I’d like to get an instrument with a non tis slide but getting to try instruments is not so easy where I live. The new Alessi model seems interesting and I’d like to try a Conn.

After reading Harrison’s post above, I put my DE101 rim on a C3 cup/shank. Nice. A keeper.

My most favorite alto would be this one.

The first M&W "German" style instrument. It sold less than 2 weeks after completion, but I have more examples in the works..

Yamaha YSL-671: The first alto I owned, I‘d been looking around at the Thomann options which played well for the price but was lucky to find this used at a local shop and was instantly sold on it. Someone in this thread described the 36h as point and shoot, I‘d say the Yamaha was a bit like a DSLR with a nice 50mm prime lens. For the non-camera geeks that infers the convenience and predictability of a new DSLR with the precision and quality of the fixed focal length lens. There was a bit of lack on flexibility of sound, that would be my only small criticism but overall a great playing horn.

Conn 36h: I got the Conn mainly as I wanted a Bb valve to cover some horn parts or occasional low trombone parts in small group playing, and also to shift partials for easier lip trills. I find it easier to switch to from tenor than anything else I tried. The sound is not quite as pure and “alto” as the Yamaha but still sounds a lot different to a small tenor in my view. It can balance ok with a large bore tenor and bass, or downsized section.

Next time W.Rapp has one of his altos available I hope he calls me and offers a test! I know him and his work already and am quite sure his alto would be pretty special.

I'm neither offended by contrary opinions nor dogmatic about my position (har har) on the Bach 39, btw. While I don't believe my experience to be unique; I have heard others mention similar things and Bach being Bach has some possibly unusual choices with parts that are reused from tenors. But that all contribute to it being special, and when something is special, it's SPECIAL! So I totally get the love for them from the people who love them.

But on the same hand, I don't know if I'll go back to a smaller alto than the one I have now. I hope that it's a size that's more explored by manufacturers in the future.

"Next time W.Rapp has one of his altos available"

Who is W.Rapp??

Winfried Rapp near Stuttgart in Germany, I couldn’t speak highly enough of him

After many years of mostly playing bass and contrabass, then hardly playing at all for some time, I bought my first alto almost 7 years ago.

I now own a Helmut Voigt, Weril and Kanstul.

Voigt:
Very classy and beautiful instrument, quite small.
Plays much better with smaller mouthpieces and can offer a very nice, focused alto sound if you spend enough time on it.
Please note that the German makers more or less offer any size and configuration you like.
The Bb valve is not good/destroys the response...

Weril:
Great instrument for the price (bought it used for a few hundred euros). Relatively easy to play, good response and warm sound. Just the intonation is a bit challenging. If they would still be produced, I would have been really tempted to buy a new one.

Kanstul:
Bought this as I wanted to have a higher quality alto that is easy to play and is more suitable for bigger orchestral settings than the Voigt. Considered Adams and Leuchter, but came across this at a great price and decided that this would be the more reasonable decision.
Same as the Weril this works great with the same mouthpiece I play on the 6h and 100h (MST STUDIO K NY N, comparable to Bach 11c) which makes it a little easier to pick it up.
Nice flexibel sound, round but not too big. Easy response and overall good intonation. Unluckily these are also not produced anymore... It's kind of feels like a logical extension of my Conn 112h, 88h and 6h.

Some impressions of other altos - although I have not played these (much) myself:

Conn 34h/36h:
Felt easy to play, many people sound great on them! The first alto I have been exposed to when playing with a great pro who just made it sound wonderful. For myself to a degree they don't sound enough like an alto.

Yamaha:
Definitely worth considering, during my studies they were kind of the standard among the tenor/alto trombonists and seemed to always work fine.

Kühnl & Hoyer Slokar:
Never played it, but played a lot with a great alto player using it. Definitely a good/great instrument.

Jahn/Throja:
I played a prototype and am not sure if it ever will be available. Great instrument, felt very big, but still sounded like an alto.

Got an M&W (non German) alto earlier this year. After a couple adjustment months, I’m extremely pleased with the instrument and sound great on it.

Thanks Adam!!

I'm also very fond of the "American" M&W alto's!!

The 1 the 1st bone player is sadly looking at, while I'm laughing from the bass bone chair.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:10 am Winfried Rapp near Stuttgart in Germany, I couldn’t speak highly enough of him

here is a pic of his alto

Nice!

I've tried many alto trombones (Conn, Courtois, Yamaha, Bach, Voight, Thein...) but when I tried the Sonas Aural I fell in love with it right away!

The horn is wonderfully well handcrafted using the best raw materials brought from Germany. Amazing real alto sound, easy to play, the slide works better than any alto I've tried. And it's so beautiful!

Fully customizable, you can choose the bore size (single and dual), bell weight and bell flare diameter, slide/slide crook/bell/tuning slide alloys, standard or lightweight slide, with or without krantz (garland) available with snake on tuning slide and slide crook.

My setup:

Bell: 51YLWK. 6", yellow brass, lightweight, with krantz.
Slide: ASYN. .491", yellow brass outers with nickel crook and oversleeves.
Tuning slide: ATY. Yellow brass, reversed.

Just to chime in here: I'm very satisfied with my Shires alto.

I'm not too sure of the specs (it's a dual bore, though), but it does what I ask of it. It's easy playing and nice sounding.

Earlier, I used to borrow a Yamaha (872?) with trill valve, but though it played really well, it felt somewhat pinched in the high register.

I'm just a weschel (bass/tenor), but I've been always fooling around with every alto that I came across. I liked a couple of Yamahas and Conns, but I must second what Pedrombon suggests!

The Sonas Aural is the most responsive alto I've ever tried! I felt like I could just pick it up and play it in a professional orchestra without any kind of practice (which I know I couldn't, but I still felt amazing trying it haha).

It has such an interesting tone... It feels like most altos either sound like a single bore tenor, but this one had a thick core with a very vibrant sound. It's hard to describe it, but I never heard such beautiful sound on that instrument

I bought myself a Sonas Stelo (tenor) last year and now I'm saving to get their bass too. If I would ever be in the market for an alto, I wouldn't even think about not buying the Aural.

Anyway, so worth to check them out in my opinion!

I haven't tried all that many, but am quite happy with the older Lätzsch "Modell Kuhn" I have. If I had more Romantic/modern alto work and more cash, I'd probably consider one of the copies of 19th-century Heckel altos that are now available, as I recently got to try an original Heckel in an orchestral setting and it absolutely knocked my socks off. (FWIW if I play alto, I don't want to sound like a tenor; I like an ATB section to be three clearly distinct colors.)

Not knowing anything about the Heckel original altos and the copies; would you mind telling me a little about them?
It sounds very cool that you got to try a 19th century alto in an orchestral setting!

I’ve got a Jin Bao Slokar clone with a red brass bell and a Ferguson lead pipe. It works well enough for my purposes. I don’t claim to set the world on fire in alto, but the few times I need it every year, it works. As of now I can’t justify spending real money on a horn I play only very occasionally.

Chatname wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:52 am Not knowing anything about the Heckel original altos and the copies; would you mind telling me a little about them?
It sounds very cool that you got to try a 19th century alto in an orchestral setting!

Trying to remember the name of the guy in Leipzig who makes an updated Heckel copy. Egger's romantic alto is also based on a Heckel. The original Heckel I played was crisper and brighter than my Lätzsch, perhaps more transparent at lower dynamics, and a bit more resistant in the low register (middle Bb and down). I loved the sound color throughout. And it was very responsive. Intonation was less straightforward - had to correct things a bit more.

It was such a treat to be able to test it out in context!