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Discussion on valve types
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:00 pm
by Brice
Hello all, I have been playing all of the low brass instruments for 5 years now. I was primarily a jazz bass trombonist, but am now switching to a small bore for jazz and using my bass trombone for orchestral settings now. My bass trombone is a Besson Sovereign BE943 with hagmann valves and i'm curious as to other peoples preferences when it comes to valves. I can't figure out how to add an image but if you google the model it should come up.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:38 pm
by mbtrombone
I personally use Axial Flow/Thayer valves in an independent setup. They are very large feeling and blow even through each individually or combined (in the two horns I use).
That being said I just got a Bach 50B2 with standard rotors in a dependent set up. The valves don’t have great compression, but the horn seems to sound pretty good, so maybe I won’t be using Axial valves forever?
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:26 am
by hyperbolica
You can read the entire internet, but nothing will tell you what to do better than playing a few horns. The easiest choice is probably rotors. They come pretty big these days, and most new wraps are open. Part of your choice should be maintenance. Can you service your own valves?
My take on it is that tenor players like more resistance to make lip slurring easier. Bass players don't lip slur as much, (partials are fewer and further apart) and they often prefer less resistance. I personally prefer rotors for the serviceability. My bass has big-ish rotors (Kanstul).
Hagmans play nice as well. I personally avoid axials, because I'm keyed in to rotors and I'd have to readjust my playing for that valve type. Not interested in relearning how to play at my age.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:40 am
by mbtrombone
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:26 am
You can read the entire internet, but nothing will tell you what to do better than playing a few horns. The easiest choice is probably rotors. They come pretty big these days, and most new wraps are open. Part of your choice should be maintenance. Can you service your own valves?
The servicing of the valves is a big deal in my opinion as well. Most of my students want an Axial, but I always tell them to get a rotor (they are all elementary to high school players) until I see them maintain a horn properly. A poorly maintained axial will be frustrating to play on.
I also did small repairs for a music store for years so taking apart my Axials doesn’t bother me. Most players I know have a bit of anxiety when they see repair techs work on their horns. There are more metal tools, hammers, and fire than most people think when repairs start to be needed.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:45 am
by Matt K
Preference depends on the instrument. On a Bach, thayers work awesome. Not as much on Conn style instruments. Probably the best bass I will ever get my hands on was a Bach 50 with Hagmanns. But I have rotors on everything I own. I tend to prefer bell sections that have a little extra clarity in articulations - which I find that rotors give - possibly at the expense of some breadth of sound you get out of Thayers, Hagmanns, or Tru-bores. I have a "dual-bore" rotor on my Shires medium bore that I'm shocked at how much of an improvement it is for me.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:11 am
by Kbiggs
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:26 am
You can read the entire internet, but nothing will tell you what to do better than playing a few horns. The easiest choice is probably rotors. They come pretty big these days, and most new wraps are open. Part of your choice should be maintenance. Can you service your own valves?
Yes, rotors and horns are very personal. For jazz and commercial playing, there’s a wide difference, at least here in the US. Some areas tend towards Conns or Conn-like instruments (like Los Angeles), while others prefer something else (see Aiden’s [burgerbob here on TC] posts; he likes Bachs). Personally, I play a Bach 50 with Instrument Innovations (Olsen) rotors. I previously played that Bach with stock valves, then changed to an Edwards with axials (Thayers), and then refurbished my horns with the Olsens. I prefer it for both jazz and classical.
I think what’s most important is what is comfortable for you: ergonomics of the instrument, the sound produced (in front of the bell and behind the bell), and the feel or response (feedback) you get from the horn. If those aren’t in a comfort range, it will be difficult to progress towards your ideal sound.
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:26 am
My take on it is that tenor players like more resistance to make lip slurring easier. Bass players don't lip slur as much, (partials are fewer and further apart) and they often prefer less resistance. I personally prefer rotors for the serviceability. My bass has big-ish rotors (Kanstul).
That’s an interesting way to look at it. I’m a doubler, so I work on lip slurs in the lower partials a lot because they are difficult. But in performance, I look for as many places where I can use a valve slur. Good working valves are essential.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:14 pm
by Burgerbob
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:26 am
My take on it is that tenor players like more resistance to make lip slurring easier. Bass players don't lip slur as much, (partials are fewer and further apart) and they often prefer less resistance.
I'm not sure I understand this. Every bass player I know plays plenty of slurs, all over the horn... it's still a trombone.
As for valves, just gotta play them. I love my axials, but they are actually LESS open than they Yamaha 830 I play at work- not what people would have you believe, I think. I think for modern valves, "open" is a kind of useless word. They all play pretty well, it's differences in use, response, and sound that matter more.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:07 pm
by BrianJohnston
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:26 am
My take on it is that tenor players like more resistance to make lip slurring easier. Bass players don't lip slur as much, (partials are fewer and further apart) and they often prefer less resistance.
LOL. "Tenor players like more resistance" - Tell that one to Jay Friedman
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:58 pm
by hyperbolica
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:14 pm
I'm not sure I understand this. Every bass player I know plays plenty of slurs, all over the horn... it's still a trombone.
Partials in the tenor range are closer together and there are more available options for natural slurs. I'd much rather play lip slurs above the staff than under it. I'd also rather lip slur in situations where I have plenty of air. Lip trill a pedal Bb to low Bb. I play renor and bass, and lip slurs are simply more difficult on a bigger horn and in the lower range. No one's honor is being called into question, it's just the way it is.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:01 pm
by Burgerbob
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:58 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:14 pm
I'm not sure I understand this. Every bass player I know plays plenty of slurs, all over the horn... it's still a trombone.
Partials in the tenor range are closer together and there are more available options for natural slurs. I'd much rather play lip slurs above the staff than under it. I'd also rather lip slur in situations where I have plenty of air. Lip trill a pedal Bb to low Bb. I play renor and bass, and lip slurs are simply more difficult on a bigger horn and in the lower range. No one's honor is being called into question, it's just the way it is.
I mean, I guess...? People play low slurs on all horns, and no one is setting up their horn to make that aspect of it easier. I just think it's a really oddball point to make.
Re: Discussion on valve types
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm
by harrisonreed
I still think trombonists have "resistance" backwards. To me a bass pushes back on you way more than a tenor. You ever try to play tuba? Forget about it. So much more resonating air you need to move.