TromboneChat

Came across this in the "Oliver" book - at first I was amused, wondering how many trombonists had one hanging around, but after a few shows it occurred to me that these recurring glisses would be easily playable with a g-attachment.
I seem to remember the thread awhile back on the advantages over an f-attachment.

Im having a bass put together with and optional G tuning for my second valve, super excited to explore that tuning.

Wonder if they had originally intended the part to be played on a G bass? Is it a 2nd trombone part?

Oliver was English in origin and it comes from the era when the G bass was still (just barely) in use.

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:29 pm Im having a bass put together with and optional G tuning for my second valve, super excited to explore that tuning.

Had mine for something like 2 years now. Only put the Gb valve on once to try it! G is just so supremely useful and not really a hindrance for low stuff, or at least the low stuff I play.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:46 pm Wonder if they had originally intended the part to be played on a G bass? Is it a 2nd trombone part?

Oliver was English in origin and it comes from the era when the G bass was still (just barely) in use.

That did occur to me - yes, it was originally an English musical and likely written when the g-bass was still pretty common. Late 50's or early 60's, I think?
One trombone book, obviously tenor and bass combined.
Here you see a "high" B; (would be tough on a G bass!) there were also low C's and pedal Gb's. (I did some self-editing since I used a 36B for all)

I imagine squeezing a G bass into the pit wouldn't be a lot of fun...

I recall playing a long run of "Oliver" at the National Theatre in Wash. D.C. around 1964 [?] and it was a two trombone book. We always got a laugh out of the place early in the show where the line "In-di-ges-tion" ends with a trombone note intending to sound like a belch. The tenor player deferred to me to play the note with my "Golden Tone" which sounded like a belch/fart/snarl all combined together. It was the first time I ever received a compliment from a conductor ! It was a fun show even though a reviewer said it was the first time he went home "humming the sets". Apparently there weren't enough memorable tunes in the show for him !

A student of mine showed me this part once. I was very amused that they would ask for a G bass trombone on such a high passage, just for a couple throwaway glisses easily fakable with a normal F attachment. I would wager that the amount of times that page has actually been played on G bass is less than 3, if ever. But it's certainly another arrow in the G attachment's quiver!

I have to say, having settled on tuning the attachment to G on my soprano trombone (over the other options F, Ab, or A), I'm much more interested in trying the solo G attachment on tenor than I was before. It's extremely useful!

I played Oliver in HS (1978) - two trombones back then. Those glisses were in both books. I don't remember any reference to a G trombone though.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:34 pm [ ... in Oliver ...] I was very amused that they would ask for a G bass trombone on such a high passage, just for a couple throwaway glisses easily fakable with a normal F attachment. I would wager that the amount of times that page has actually been played on G bass is less than 3, if ever. But it's certainly another arrow in the G attachment's quiver!

Remember that Oliver was written and premiered in London in 1960, when G bass trombones were still plentiful in the area. The arranger probably wrote for what was available in the pit orchestras of the time. So it was probably played many more than 3 times on a G bass. (I saw Oliver live in London in 1966 - it had a long run - 2,618 performances!)

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:17 pm Came across this in the "Oliver" book - at first I was amused, wondering how many trombonists had one hanging around, but after a few shows it occurred to me that these recurring glisses would be easily playable with a g-attachment.
I seem to remember the thread awhile back on the advantages over an f-attachment.

Ooo interesting, this might be a useful nugget to cite in the G trombone section of the bass trombone Wikipedia article.

Also the gliss from D3 to F#3 at the trombone's entry in La Création du Monde by Milhaud--easily handled on a (single-valve) Bb/G tenor. Regarding the "supremacy" of minor-third attachments, consider the following.
For enhanced slide facility in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register, the F attachment (on a Bb trombone) offers a few useful alternates. The "problem" is that the attachment's harmonics are a bit too low. The (slide-closed) intervals between adjacent (F-attachment and slide-alone) harmonics are seen here:

F2-(P4)-Bb2-(M2)-C3-(P4)-F3-(P4)-Bb3

The preponderance of perfect fourths means that relatively large slide-position shifts are still required for small intervals.
Compare the intervals between (shortest-slide-position) equitempered tones on a Bb trombone in the octave above the bass clef (4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th harmonics):

Bb3-(M3)-D4-(m3)-F4-(M2)-G4-(m3)-Bb4

where intervals of thirds and seconds enable good slide facility in this range. The (odd) 5th and 7th harmonics interleave uniformly between the even harmonics.
The G attachment extends this uniform interleaving down into the bass clef:

G2-(m3)-Bb2-(M3)-D3-(m3)-F3-(M2)-G3-(m3)-Bb3

Here, the G-attachment's 3rd harmonic (D3) and 4th harmonic (G3) mimic--an octave lower--the slide-alone 5th and 7th harmonics, respectively, in the upper octave. Because of this, minor-third attachment tuning is very easy to learn!
Combining the lower and upper harmonics, we see a G-minor-seventh (or Bb-sixth) arpeggio available over the full range. Arpeggios of all other chord types are easily available within two or three adjacent outer positions. Slide positions for all scales in the lower octave closely duplicate those in the ("facile") upper octave.
The single-valve Bb/G tenor (what Alan Charlesworth called "tenor G") does not attempt to extend the range down to pedals--Db2, C2, and B1 are missing. For a continuously chromatic tenor or bass, we could add a second valve-actuated dependent loop such as: Bb/G/Eb, Bb/G/D, or Bb/G/Db. Or an in-line independent combination such as:
(i) Bb/G(thumb)-F(finger)-"Eb"(double)
(ii) Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double)
(iii) Bb/G(thumb)-Eb(finger)-Db(double)
In case (i), the "Eb"(double) is too flat (by 30¢) to be useful and the B1 is about halfway between slide-alone 6th and 7th positions. In case (ii), if the E(finger) is tuned 20 cents sharp, the D(double) is perfectly in tune. Case (iii) is a transposition (up by a P4) of the Thein contrabass, F/D(thumb)-Bb(finger)-Ab(double). My preferred tuning is Bb/G-E-D. But the Bb/G-Eb-Db is certainly a viable option. Both of these tunings are "compatible" (in terms of thumb-trigger action) with other single-valve minor-third tunings--Bb/G tenor, C/A tenor (a great "lead" voice paralleling the C trumpet) and Eb/C alto.
There is no reason (other than "tradition") why the thumb-trigger-operated attachment should be taken for granted to be a "perfect-fourth" attachment, i.e. an F attachment on a Bb tenor or bass trombone (or Bb attachment on a Eb alto). Modern trombone designs should make use of the "supremacy" of minor-third attachments.

So, vaguely related... on a recent research stint on valve patents, I found US patent 5435222 (1993, expired) for a "Single trigger minor third attachment short reach slide trombone" - which gives a tenor trombone in B♭/G with a short 6 position slide that can go to low E♭.

Now for the rabbit hole: the inventor, Brian Phillip Leonard, is a (retired?) mechanical engineer and prof at University of Akron, Ohio. He owned four now-expired patents, mostly to do with short-slide trombones and alternative valve layouts (e.g. a bass in B♭/G/E/D) that I assume were mainly for pedagogical/prosthetic use. But interestingly, in US patent 5900563 he also patented a "JC" layout of knuckles in rotary valves, using full diameter tubing, to reduce the angle on one of the knuckles (one has a J-shaped 45° bend, the other is a regular 90° bend), and another (US 6018115) for a lightweight vented version. So, I wonder if he ever got anywhere with any of these patents, given how much they cost; I'd never heard of the inventions, or the inventor until now

jonathanharker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:14 pm So, vaguely related... on a recent research stint on valve patents, I found US patent 5435222 (1993, expired) for a "Single trigger minor third attachment short reach slide trombone" - which gives a tenor trombone in B♭/G with a short 6 position slide that can go to low E♭.

Now for the rabbit hole: the inventor, Brian Phillip Leonard, is a (retired?) mechanical engineer and prof at University of Akron, Ohio. He owned four now-expired patents, mostly to do with short-slide trombones and alternative valve layouts (e.g. a bass in B♭/G/E/D) that I assume were mainly for pedagogical/prosthetic use. But interestingly, in US patent 5900563 he also patented a "JC" layout of knuckles in rotary valves, using full diameter tubing, to reduce the angle on one of the knuckles (one has a J-shaped 45° bend, the other is a regular 90° bend), and another (US 6018115) for a lightweight vented version. So, I wonder if he ever got anywhere with any of these patents, given how much they cost; I'd never heard of the inventions, or the inventor until now

He's still here and in fact has posted on this thread.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:15 am He's still here and in fact has posted on this thread.

Well gee, that's embarrassing...! Now I'm really curious! Hi Brian... apologies; I'm 1. new here, and 2. live in New Zealand where we only have two full time professional orchestras, and we're two timezones from the nearest continental landmass.

Hello, Jonathan. No worries! I usually go by "Benny"--a hold-over from a nickname picked up long ago at school (Haileybury College in Melbourne), honouring the world-champion boxer. This topic is about written glisses that are not authentically playable on a Bb tenor trombone, but would be playable on a bass trombone in G or an independent-dual-valve bass trombone tuned Bb/F-G-"Eb". [The Milhaud example could also be played on a bass trombone tuned Bb/F-F#-D.] But the pieces were evidently scored for "trombone", not "bass trombone". So one wonders if the orchestrators were fully aware of the (Bb tenor) trombone's glissando limitations. It's hard to believe they weren't. So that's a bit of a puzzle.
Regarding the Bb/G short-slide design you mentioned, this was intended for professional use. [When I first conceptualised the Bb/G tuning (in 1960), I was unaware of the Holton TR-650 "Collegiate" model (with a full length tenor slide) that was developed in consultation with Mark McDunn, specifically for young students with short arms.] The C/A tenor described in the patent was also intended for professional use. It has the full low-range compass (down to E2) of the Bb tenor, plus two extra pedals, C2 and B1. It is a completely different concept from the Yamaha 350C (compact) model with the ascending C valve--also marketed as an instrument for beginning young students (it has no 7th position in Bb). Although that instrument is easily modified to C/A: by adding 176 mm to the attachment tubing and restoring the valve to descending. Some have suggested modifying to C/G, but this perfect-fourth attachment design (a transposition of Bb/F) does not take advantage of the minor-third attachment's amazing slide-facility potential in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register. And the Bb/G-E-D tenor or bass (first conceptualised in 1962) is most definitely intended for professional use. A prototype was built (a modified Conn 88H) at Giardinelli's shop in 1971. Although not a professional trombonist myself (I am an aerospace engineer, retired from teaching in 1997), I have been performing publicly (most recently with the Stow Symphony and Akron Pops Orchestras--until COVID struck), now retired, on instruments with minor-third tunings for over 60 years.
Regarding the "JC" geometry of my (vented) valve design, I prefer to call this by its descriptive (all-caps) acronym, the ULTRA valve: Unsymmetrical Lipped-Tube Rotary Actuator.
Perhaps, if anyone is interested, I can elaborate later on the "supremacy" of the minor-third options: Eb/C alto, C/A and Bb/G tenors, Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double) continuously chromatic tenor or bass trombones. Meanwhile, if you send me, via email, a convenient postal address, I'd be happy to send along written material on these topics: [email protected].

My bet for the "Oliver" G Trombone indication is that they had the "Symphonic" G Bass with the D attachment in mind. Our Bass Trombonist here picked up one of these online recently, and he loves it! Still a rather small instrument bore-wise, but bigger than the brass band version both in bore and bell size. They were still used in many British orchestras into the 50's and 60's, and I believe there were a couple of holdouts into the 70's. Denis Wick spoke very appreciatively about the sound that some of his colleagues made on those instruments in some of the British orchestras when he was a young player.

Jim Scott

Hi! Gosh I've only just noticed this; I need to fiddle with my email notifications it seems.

Sesquitone wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:52 pm Hello, Jonathan. No worries!