TromboneChat

So... I have seen other similar threads but am curious to see what responses I get.

I am playing more and more shows and pit gigs and have come across an array of different requirements expected of the trom book.

For example, Matilda requirs Bass/Tenor , but, some of the tenor trom stuff would go down to the E flat.

My Bach 16 was always going to be too small, but my question is should I be looking at a King 3bF? Or something a bit bigger like a Bach 36?

I would love to get some responses from everyone, from the everyday hobbyist to full-time musos who do this kind of work as a living.

Cheers!

With enough practice you should be able to go down into the bass range on your 16, I do it on my Bach 12! However, if it goes down there too much I use my Bach 36K, or even my King 5B if it's not often up in the rafters & I need a bigger sound!

It all depends on what the show is & how to blend within the group. What works with 1 group for a show may not work as well with another, doing the same show!

The Yamaha YSL456A is a medium bore Bb/F, with a fairly light tone between your 16 & a 36, that works well in pits.
A king B/F would probably be similar, but with a smaller bore, along with an Olds Recording.

I'm not a huge fan of large bores in a pit, unless using it as a small bass or there is a full section of bones.

Cheers

If you need one horn to cover the full range, you can't get much better than a 36b. Maybe swap out mouthpieces for the extremes of range.

All the King 3BF I've played have a surprisingly great low range. The 607F I have (medium bore) also has a really good low range.

I think it boils down to what type of sound you want. If you want a great "everything" horn, a 3BF or 607F (or the 3B+F) are all great options and require no additional configuration to get them to do what you need to do (no taking the torch to it like you would to install an F attachment on a Bach 16 or something). Most of the King wraps actually have a decent "E" pull, so you can even get down to B natural if your arms are long enough on most horns. The professional (600+) Yamaha medium bores also have that pull as well. The 356 doesn't have quite an E pull but is also a really good horn. Bach 36"X" where "X" is any of the various valves they have are also typically good horns as well.

A large bore instrument would get you a similar result. You probably wouldn't use it for everything, but for tunes inside a larger work that you wanted a more "classical" sound, it might be a good option. Keep the small horn for "commercial"/jazz/etc. and have the large bore on hand.

If you don't already have one, I'd also seriously consider a bass trombone. Everyone seems to want a bass trombone! You can get a dependent bass on the used market for a good price usually too (like a King Duo Gravis). I prefer Independents but it isn't necessary by any stretch. You can also get single valve basses but that second valve is really, really useful. That gives you access to the low Eb for sure! The sound is way more different on bass than on small tenor so if your goal is to have it sound similar for tunes with the Eb that wouldn't work... but if it's acceptable then, go for it! Bass trombones use large shank receives and you'd probably most of the time want to use a bass trombone mouthpiece (like Bach 2G or bigger); however.... you can use smaller pieces. Something with a depth of a 6.5AL even can work "okay" for tenor parts. It's weird if you're used to bass pieces in a bass, but if it gets the job done...

In my opinion, a .525 bore horn with an f attachment is ideal for most theatre work that asks for tenor trombone. That being said, I know people who play both larger and smaller horns on shows. Trombonist who play on broadway or the west end often have several options to choose from at home and are likely going to tailor the horn to the gig. Also keep in mind, many modern books will ask you to double on bass trombone, tuba and occasionally euphonium. A great example is Jesus Christ Superstar, which is a tenor/bass/tuba book.

I bought a medium bore shires five or so years ago when I was working on cruise ships and I never knew what a guest entertainer was going to throw at me on a given night. Its been great for musicals. Styles can vary quiet a lot in one show, and you would be surprised how many tenor books have a random low Eb or D written in them. When books get reduced for tours or regional work, two trombone books often become one and bass lines find their way into a tenor book.

I haven’t played a show in a long time, but I recently purchased a Conn 79H, 0.525 bore with f attachment and slide pull for b natural. I am much more accustomed to Bach 42G trombones of various configurations. I have found the 79H to be nimble and capable of staying under a soloist while maintaining a reasonably “sound.” And it can project when required. It can get a little bright on Bb and above, above middle C. I bury the bell into the stand when that happens. The one I purchased has the best slide of any Conn that I have played. I think Yamaha, King, and Bach trombones with 0.525 bores and f attachments are worth looking into.

As much as I love my Duo Gravis, which is easy to blow, easy to swap back and forth between smaller trombones, and sounds gorgeous, I am not anxious to carry the beast to a gig with another horn, or for the record, pick it up for long periods of time.

I use a Yamaha YSL-640 for this work, though a Bach 36B would also be great. The F-attachment and the compact wrap on both are perfect for often cramped pit locations. I played once where there was literally no room to go to 6th position, so having the F-attachment really helped.

Here's an interesting extra factor. If it's a long running show, you should also consider who you would want your subs to be. If they draw primarily from the jazz/commercial side, then a King or a medium bore f-attachment is great. If you're planning on subbing to classical players, they'll probably bring a large bore.

It's more of a matter of where you want your career to go, and just food for thought, not a hard and fast rule or anything.

I feel a lot of the recent shows that require doubles are very well planned out in terms of doubling so you can really play on your small bore and bass bone without getting another horn.

When I played Matilda a few years ago, I used a 3b type Yamaha straight horn with a bass trombone. The switches in the music were very reasonably planned out so I didn't have any trouble switching between my small bore and bass. I remember there were times I just stuck with the bass trombone on some of the parts and not switch. The low Eb at the end of #4 must be what you're referring to is an example where I just stay on bass for that section. Same thing with the end of #20C.

There are some shows that have double where you can really play it all on a F-attachment Large bore. Urinetown(gotta have Euphonium though...), Mary Poppins-condensed version(8 measures of bass bone...), and Pippin comes to mind.

The Bach 16 should work fine in many or any show. Almost all pits are mic'd in one way or another so you don't really need to produce a lot of sound to get into the house. Perhaps a cheaper alternative is a mouthpiece change on shows that needs a little more bottom. NY trombonist Keith O'Quinn plays pretty much all of his shows(well, everything really) on a Gold Plated Bach 16M with a Bach 6 1/2A mouthpiece.

There are a lot of variables that go into this.

I use my 3BF. I eventually want to get a 2nd valve added to it for specifically the show work described. If I had a 607 or 36B, I would probably use that instead on shows with more low demands than high. A two-valve 607 would be the perfect instrument for Cabaret, for example. Low C to high Bb, piece of cake.

36B

Versatility is the name of the game. Unless it’s a big pit, you’ll be the only trombonist. For a small pit, maybe one of only 2-3 brass players. I’ve used a variety of large bores, a medium bore, and even a single valve bass. The medium bore with an F attachment is really hard to beat, and you can have several mouthpieces to adjust the colours you need for a scene. Large bore can work, as can bass, but keeping articulation snappy will be harder.
I like Bach horns, but players I worked with in NYC used a mix of Bach, Shires, edwards.

Hard to beat a 3Bf, especially in silver.
A 36b is super flexible, but a lot more work.

Pretty much everything people have said here. The only difference for me is that I'll use a modern bass for most parts marked "bass". Anything lower than low Eb (which may have just been poorly scored) I'll assume is a real bass part though I play in a more compact commercial sound. Anything marked tenor or just trombone I'll decide based on the scoring. Classical/orchestral show? Large tenor as that's what the local symphony folks that are likely in the other chairs are expecting. Commercial/pop book? Small tenor.

I don't mess with 0.525 horns very much. I get the idea of the all around flexibility but in a world of pickups and cars I've always felt like medium bore horns end up being the El Camino.

“I've always felt like medium bore horns end up being the El Camino.”

Excellent comparison.

Molefsky wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:03 pm ... in a world of pickups and cars I've always felt like medium bore horns end up being the El Camino.

... or perhaps a Honda Ridgeline (a much more sensible vehicle).

Except the Ridgeline is bigger than many pickups. That would be like playing everything on bass just because you can.

Played my seldom-used Conn 79H (0.522" bore) at a rehearsal tonight. It is a marvelous trombone - definitely not a useless "in-betweener." Makes me want to try it in a variety of playing situations. I was recently invited to join a (relatively modest) symphony orchestra in the fall. I think I'll being the 79H - it should be perfect for the size of the ensemble and the hall they'll be playing in. I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to use it in a pit.

I think a better frame (pun intended) would be that a medium bore is like a small/mid SUV (w/ F attachment) or crossover (straight). They aren't as fuel efficient as a compact, they don't handle as well in bad weather as a heavy SUV, they can't tow as much as a truck, and they don't carry as many people as a van. But they carry more people and handle bad weather better than a compact, can tow light loads, and are way more fuel efficient than a heavy truck or van.

The medium bore w/o F attachment doesn't quite get as many of the benefits like the extra low range, much like how a crossover is essentially a larger car that often handles better in bad weather. And with an F attachment is more akin to a Subaru Outback, Honda CRV, or Toyta RAV4. There are few things you can't do with those vehicles, but you can get specialized vehicles that do everything better than them.


Sidenote about the Ridgeline... it's very similar to the Pilot, but with a truck bed. It looks big, but it's actually a surprisingly nimble vehicle and gets surprisingly decent mileage. My Pilot feels more like I'm driving a slightly large car more than a heavy Truck. Although it looks like the Pilot/Ridgline comparison is diverge a little. When I bought my Pilot, the Ridgeline was only 1MPG less than the Pilot (20/27 vs 19/26). The Pilot is still (on paper) as efficient as mine is, but the Ridgeline is now 18/24. After doing extensive (well.. okay, not extensive, I average like 100 miles a month), I actually get better mileage in it than on paper. On the interstate, I can push 30MPG in it and around town, I'm getting 24-26.

Still doesn't hold a candle to my Fit, which I can push 40MPG if I have a stiff tailwind. I can't wait until some of the EV vehicles become a little bit more affordable. I would have bough a Highlander Hybrid instead of the Pilot, but it was a solid 15k more when I bought mine Such a totally smooth ride. Like a carbon fiber slide... Okay I'm going to stop

I once had to use a valve trombone because there was (literally) NO room in the pit for my slide to move...

My Corp 36B is my go-to pit horn for most 'tenor' books. I'm currently using this with a Bach 5GB on my 2nd run of Matilda, alongside my modified Yamaha bass - same setup as I used for Miss Saigon. Other than a couple of the really high rock bits, it's brilliant - I just wouldn't mind a bit more brightness and snap up top, with the low-dynamic we're having to work to. I had a 3rd trombone player years ago play Follies on a 36B with a 2G mouthpiece - plenty solid enough down low.

For more big-band style shows (Producers trombone 1) I'd use the 36 on trombone 2 but something smaller on 1.
Rock shows (eg Kinky Boots) also had the small-bore out.
Anything G&S gets the 36B or something large, depending on whether I'm in a section and what the acoustic environment is (a big, open pit could justify a large-bore, a tight, mic'd pit mic want something smaller).
For the cut-down-book shows like Parade/Miss Saigon/Matilda where the instrument changes aren't always in the best places, the 36 is giving me the power down low without having to work quite so hard up top.

I'm in the position where I've got a heap of horns to choose from for pit work though, but especially if sight-reading a new show, the 36 is my go-to.